MattR

I went on most of the campouts my son was on and all of the high adventures. In hindsight I was really glad I went with him because three months after he received his Eagle he took off to Argentina for a year long youth exchange program and we weren't allowed to even talk to him for the first month other than him telling us he made it. He did fine. Taking off for a weekend of independence is nothing compared to taking off for a year to a country where you don't even speak the language. He got into the program because of his scouting experience. The fact that I camped with him didn't hurt his experience. I do know that another scout that had done an exchange a year before my son convinced my son it would be fun.

I'm not sure why some kids stay at home but dad going on campouts with them likely isn't it.

Oh man, I'm in trouble. 16 years as ASM & SM that included such things as wrestling, white washing, the "what's that on your neckerchief?" gag, arm wrestling, high fives, the entire troop hugging me for my birthday, the older scouts saying "let's get Mr R!" and the ensuing moshpit with me at the bottom, throwing kids in the pool, water fights on rafts that included throwing scouts off the raft ....

Watch how the scouts play with each other. They do touch each other. They wrestle. They pig pile. They jam 6 kids into a 2 man tent and play cards. If you suggest to any of them that what they're doing is sexual or inappropriate then you'll ruin something innocent that they can't do anywhere else.

While I would never enter a tent I did wrestle and a bunch of other things. It was fun but it was more than that. It was also gaining their trust so when I had to tell them they were being self centered and didn't reflect the ideals of scouting, they'd listen and respect me. I wanted the scouts to understand that there's a time to play and a time to be serious. If they didn't see me do that then I was just another bloviating adult they could tune out.

I think fun should be an official method. Let's face it, not fun is not motivating to a scout.

But think a bit more about what is fun. Different strokes for different folks. This is a really important idea. Trying to treat every kid the same is a mistake. There are a lot of really outgoing and really quiet kids. Treating the quiet kids like they're outgoing could easily put them in an uncomfortable position. At the same time, treating the outgoing kids like they're quiet could put them to sleep. I've seen studies on how quiet kids are the way they are because everything stimulates them. The other side of this is that the really outgoing kids need more stimulation. Maybe the outgoing kids really benefit from being held upside down, just as the quiet kids might be over stimulated. So what should the adults do? Ask the kid! They'll give you an honest answer.

@WisconsinMomma, while there are plenty of opportunities for conflict resolution, why waste this one? I mean, learning how to do a practical joke when you're 13 and among people that understand how to do practical jokes is a lot better than waiting until you're in a frat and people are forcing you to drink shots. This may sound extreme but a lot of kids do not have any opportunity to screw up before they're sent off to college where they suddenly have much more freedom and no experience on how to deal with it.

This is the whole point. The adults telling the scouts not to do something because it might go bad is not at all the same as the scouts figuring it out on their own. Yes, snow shoeing in an avalanche zone is not the place to let them learn the hard way. But practical jokes are fine. The scouts will eventually forget what the adults said. They will not forget the time they messed up and had to deal with the consequences.

When I was a scout we were sent off looking for smoke shifters and sky hooks. That is now called hazing or bullying. It is neither. Sure, it could go bad but if done right It is an opportunity for the younger scouts to learn how to take some discomfort with a smile, the older scouts to learn how to watch for where the line is on each scout, the adults to bite their tongues, and everyone to have some fun.

I'm sorry if I seem to be going on about this, but it seems that some of the best lessons that scouts could learn about dealing with other people are being taken off the table. They can also be fun.

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

And don't ask for everything all at once. Pick a few examples where the adults are too close to the scouts and ask them to give the boys room.

@Eagle94-A1, this is really good advice that will make your life easier.

One way to make the problem smaller is to pick one simple task, like menus, signing off on Tenderfoot reqs, uniforms. Another is to pick a smaller group of scouts to work with. A patrol might work. Younger scouts will more likely trust you but older scouts that want more room might also trust you. Whatever section you'd like to work with it should have very clear boundaries. A patrol, the QM, make it distinct. The wolf patrol doing tenderfoot advancement, for example. I'd stay away from something vague like "all the younger scouts."

You will also need to get a lot of adults to buy into this. The SM for starters, the parents of the scouts you're working with, unless I wasn't clear, the scouts as well, the PLC. Set up a way to evaluate how it's going.

This doesn't seem to work with the new SW? @RememberSchiff Instead, Start with the @, start typing their login and a window with options that match will pop up

11 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So to prepare for this discussion, I want your thoughts, times you've been in this situation, and how you countered the arguments for adult interference. I am one of those who cannot think fast on my feet, but rather need to think ahead and come up with points deliberatively. So your help is welcomed. Thanks in advance. 

Getting back to the OP's Q, which was how to talk about it with the existing adults.

Here's my boiled down view of the Aims of scouting: teach scouts how to make good decisions. The only way I can see that scouts can do this is to make decisions and live with the good and the bad. You can't talk about how to ride a bike, you have to ride the bike. The same goes for all the people issues that are involved in a patrol. Picking leaders, deciding what to eat, developing skills, washing dishes when it's cold, .... So, the real question is why do the adults want to put in these restrictions that limit the scout's opportunities to make decisions? I can think of two. First is that all the scouts should have an opportunity. Next, it becomes a popularity contest and the quiet scouts that might do a good job get pushed out. Both could be reasonable answers, assuming that there's no respect for the PL. If the PL is a figure head that doesn't really do anything then a round robin method works great. If the PL has an important job that is not trivial then it's a different story. If the PL has to lead his team and generate consensus and all those other things, and the scouts know who they want, and they know who they don't want, then they should decide.

The next issue that will likely be brought up: Sure, but if we let them make all the decisions then they'll just fail, everyone will be miserable, and they'll all quit. This is true. However, there are things the adults can do to help the scouts be successful. Just like riding a bike, let's make sure the bike fits before sending a kid out on a bike for the first time. let's give the scouts the tools they need.

My pet issue right now is teamwork. Without it a new PL is going to have a hell of a hard time being successful. So what can the adults to help develop teamwork within the patrol?

Anyway, decisions that the scouts can make should be made by the scouts. Our job is to prepare them to make those decisions.

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

BUT, can anyone envision that type of troop today?

No, because I can't even imagine 1) scouts that would walk that far (our town isn't that small), 2) anyone that would allow them on their land, 3) any parents that would allow their kids to walk on a road with all the cell phone based car accidents I've seen.

I can almost envision something similar, where parents drop the kids off at a trail head. Still, we have issues with people camping on blm or national forest land and drinking and smoking and shooting off weapons (just a mile or so from the scout camp, to be exact).

In other words, I can envision the scouts doing this, but I would be concerned with random adults mucking it up. At the same time this is the exception and with a bit of wisdom and discussion with the county sheriff, can be avoided. So, I can envision it. I even told some scouts about it. They thought it would be cool but they never went beyond that. We have a great scout camp, that's big as well, and I'd really enjoy seeing the scouts take off up there.

Now, can I get the scouts to do this? I'm still hunting for that motivation. So, I can envision it, I'd even like to see it happen, but I haven't gotten there yet.

One of the things that has changed from years ago is the idea that people have to be amused in their spare time. Fishing or hiking was more than enough to amuse a group of kids. Now we have to have some structured activity or else the scouts won't even consider it. Consider zip lines. They are very expensive to install, it's like a Disney ride as far as anticipation and getting scouts all excited, but they're really only fun for a couple of rides. Then it's boring. It's not that scouts need to sit and meditate in the woods, but sometimes it seems like they need to learn how to be happy with something simple. Cooking over a fire is a great example. It takes a lot of time to start a fire and burn it down to coals and then cook over it compared to using a stove. I don't know how to convince scouts that slowing down on occasion can be a good thing.

It's a good list but it's missing two things: Having fun and being in the outdoors. If you show that list to a scout they might not be so interested, so number one should be having fun. Also, we all know how important the outdoors are. Fresh air, away from electronics, ....

I knew the 14 and older program was going away. I thought you meant they were pulling out of Boy Scouts as well. What I didn't understand is how this will impact the 14 and older boys. Is the push to get everyone to Eagle before they're 14? The BSA likes that but I sure don't.

The backlash is a shame, especially given how poorly the troop is being run. Honestly, what's to say the new program will be better than the old, given the people that are running it?

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

Similar to @Back Pack, if you use an iPhone and Safari you can see the new posts icon in the top menu bar. See the pic below...it's the icon to the right of the white arrow. It only shows (at least for me) in the mobile version. I don't see it in the desktop version. 

 

on the right side, at the same level as the bread crumbs, there's that icon (that looks more like a newspaper)  and "Unread Content"

3 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

My experience is the boys do not respond well to an adult facilitator --it tends to shut down real dialogue. Ideally an older boy who is respected can offer suggestions. But I think it is more important that they get talking and they know what is going on anyway. We let some adults comment at the end but they have to keep it as brief as the boys. Usually the SPl or SM get the last work. 

Good point. I think it's a matter of trust. Scouts won't talk to anyone they don't trust about crap that happens. That's probably true for everyone. Anyway, I've had situations where getting a scout to talk was like pulling webbing from a spider's butt. The scouts did try before I got involved. In one case the scout was conflicted. He wanted to be loyal to his mates even though some of them were treating him like dirt. I had to create trust quickly and the best way I could think of was to just ask him for specifics. He got real shy and I told him I'd probably heard much worse from other people. He'd finally mention some swear word that was used and I just asked him if there was anything else. Eventually it was a huge win for everyone. Once I got the scouts involved to sit down and talk I walked away and they kept talking. I'd be the first to have a scout do this as it would be an incredibly useful skill to develop. But the speaking skills of most 15 year olds is something along the lines of "What's buggin' you?" "nothin'" "cool." As Fred said, this isn't taught.

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Is it possible to involve parents and families on an occasional basis?  I don't get the impression that parents and siblings want to do every activity and trip, but maybe show up once in a while.  At Troop meetings, we have a group of moms and younger siblings who hang out down the hall while the boys meet in the gym.  That's not interfering.   My husband is an ASM and goes to summer camp and says with the same breath that he does nothing and that what he does is important.   This year I almost went to camp to do nothing too but the schedule did not work out.  I don't see the big problem if I go to a thing once in a while.  In fact, I am thinking of going to and sitting in on a PLC meeting, just to be a fly on the wall.  I am curious how much the Troop adults participate vs the boys and I'd like to see it in action.

We tried allowing the entire family to show up for a campout, once. I hate to say it but all the bad things everyone mentions here actually happened. There's a huge pull between the families that showed up and the young scouts of those families that just wanted to be with their family when, say, the young scouts were supposed to be helping their patrol clean up. It just didn't work. I suppose it could work but it would require some severe rules on separation.

But what you also asked was whether you could go camping. There seem to be two views of adults on campouts. One is that they shouldn't be there. The other is that being there is okay, as long as they watch, listen, and respect the scout's need for separation. I really enjoyed my time with my son on campouts. Mostly I let him be. On occasion we wrestled in the dirt. Often I just watched him grow or we'd share a great view of the mountains. Maybe I'd see him for 10 or 15 minutes a day. These were great memories so I understand a parent that wants to participate. I even encouraged it because those parents are the ones that are going to help out. They just have to understand how to participate. I would often pull parents aside and request that they let the scouts solve that problem on their own or there was time to let the scouts be.

Since you're curious about how the PLC operates, you have to understand that you just being a fly on the wall will completely change how the PLC operates because, well, you're going to be more like the elephant in the room. If they only have the SM in the room, or more likely nobody in the room, then your presence will completely change the dynamic. A better way would be to gain some trust with the scouts, and then ask them how the PLC meetings go. Until the scouts can trust you they won't tell you anything. Gaining their trust is key and it takes time.

One thing about thorns, roses and buds, is scouts will often just bring up thorns they have no control over. They'd bring up the fact that the weather was bad but not that one of the scouts would not help out. It's the things they have control over that bring up the best feedback and yet the hardest issues to raise. When I see the struggle with this I also tell them it is indeed hard to do but they'll really need that skill in the future. Once they know that courteous confrontation is hard to do for everyone they're more willing to try. This is why I said in an earlier post that a facilitator can help a lot.

Due to the new software I suspect many people might not be seeing this.

All I can say is you're doing the right thing. The Scoutmaster should not just ask a question and sign off a MB. Nobody should just talk about a subject and then sign off cards. The point of a MB is to do the work. What you're describing is a complete disregard for the advancement method. You have to ask yourself what Eagle means under such circumstances. Well, it sounds like you already have, but what can you do about it? What we usually tell parents in situations like this is talk to someone outside the troop. Talk to the DE (district executive). I'm not sure what the relationship is between the troop and the church is, but do they know what's going on? Another thing we tell parents with these types of problems is find another troop. Is that even possible for you?

Your initial comment, that the LDS church is going to drop the program is news to me. Maybe that's a rumor? If it is then there are some problems that need to be fixed in your troop. If it's not a rumor then Eagle means much less to the LDS church then it used to. If it still means something to you then maybe you can find another troop.

Honestly, I'm sorry to see someone have to deal with these types of problems. Scouting should be about watching your son grow. Good luck.

3 hours ago, fred johnson said:

Quality control ?  BSA quality control is to let scouts and families vote with their feet.  Units die if they go astray and it drives parents away.  If units go astray and scouts and their parents stay and the unit successfully recruits enough to keep alive, then it's a good quality unit.  

 

Yes ... Scout at the board of review ... The scout is supposed to give feed back to the adults at his rank BORs on how the program is working.  Is it meeting his needs?  Is it fun?  Is he learning?  What can / should change?  What are the problems ?  IMHO, the BOR is often poorly used as a feedback quality control loop.  BUT, that's one of the main purposes of the BOR. 

 

This is good but BOR's don't happen often enough. I did something similar with entire patrols, just as the manuals mention. Thorns and roses. We got some very good responses from them. It did take an adult to facilitate because the scouts would naturally just grunt and move on. Rocking the boat is very hard for a teenager.

1 hour ago, oldbuzzard said:

 

I think this perfectly encapsulates some aspects of the women/girls in scouting issue of the original unsplit  parent post. I strongly agree with everything you are saying about challenge, but the yardstick should be much more internal than external. Setting it up as a matter of whether you are better than women or younger scouts or some "other" misses the whole point. It is rather am I better/strong/more competent than my younger self. No need to denigrate others. There are always higher peaks to climb.

 

....

 

For instance, our troop is doing an independent Boundary  Waters trip this Summer. The PLC initiated the idea since a number of kids have family experience and want to do it as a troop. They decided it should be open to everyone but the older kids want to push themselves.So... we're taking three crews(max BWCA crew size 9)

....
 

I think the key thing is if you want to push younger kids into high adventure you *must*  provide higher levels of challenge for the older kids.

I didn't intend to pick on the moms. I can see how doing something just to make a point to someone else is not a good thing. At the same time, external motivation can be a good thing. Two scouts are best friends. One wants to do something and the other is on the fence. The first says hey, come on, we're doing this. That's external. I've done that to others and others have done it to me.

My key point was that, given that there are scouts that want to push themselves, the adults should not be holding them back. There are few that will push themselves so that's a huge resource for the SM to take advantage of.

Our troop did a split group last summer backpacking. It worked really well. One great thing about it is we met up at the end and the younger scouts could hear about the trip the older scouts went on. That's a bit of magic.

It's always been an issue with new parents that are looking out for their sons and don't see the whole troop. Quality control might not be the right term. It's an attitude. It's about the scouts figuring this out on their own and adults encouraging them to push themselves. I honestly don't know if this is a guy thing or not but I suspect this is what underlies this whole reason we're at some huge number of posts about moms and girls in scouting. My son, who is now 26, had an idea this summer. He rode his bike 50 miles, starting at 10pm and climbed nearly a mile in elevation, met me at a trail head at 3am where we then hiked 7 miles and climbed another mile to reach a peak over 14,000'. Then we did the reverse. All the moms thought he was crazy. All the dads were slapping him on the back. That tells me something. The dads are much more likely to be the ones that encourage this. It wasn't dangerous. It was a challenge. Hiking or canoeing for a week is a challenge. It's memories and proving to yourself that you can do it. This does more for a kid then anything else I've seen. It doesn't matter what the challenge is. It just has to be a real challenge. And when mom is asking for something easier that's proof to every kid that it's a perfect challenge. If you want to prove you're ready to be an adult then do something they can't.

I'm fine with girls in scouts. I can even see girl patrols and boy patrols IF the patrol method is working well. Arguing about whether or not girls should be here is moot, they're coming. But the issue that always has been and still is is whether the adults understand what this is about. The adults that understand can easily deal with the parents that want an easier AT hike.

Turtle, while I was SM I had to defend the scouts a lot. A group of scouts that wanted to do something challenging always got my backing. It was the greatest way to develop trust between myself and the scouts. The result was I'd let them do things and they'd respect my view. That's a good memory. The bad memory was that it got harder as there were fewer parents willing to back me up. I just saw my scouts lose their vote on high adventure trips, and summer camp. Nearly all the meetings since I stepped down have been advancement. It's hard to watch. Three weeks of cyber chip? Shoot me.

A peaceful expression of a descending views is not civil disobedience.  

Not quite sure, but is a descending view one where you look at your shoes? That is certainly not civil disobedience, but who really cares?

dissenting?

I loved the old community strips, they were great conversation starters and a great way to make friendships.  Most council patches are so "busy" that they are hard to read to know even the name of the council.  From 5' away all one knows is that it's different than the one one is wearing.  It could even be the same council, but it's hard to tell.

 

I wear the one that was issued when I bought the uniforms, my oldest shirt has a patch from 1993.

I wish this were still an option. Besides being really unique and unusual (what everyone was going for with the bright busy patches) it would be simpler.

I wonder if the Pope gets 41 pages of comments when he makes a decision. Probably a lot more.

Look at the Eagle application. There's room on it after the SM && CC signature for the council's signature, called the BSA Local Council Verification, saying the council agrees that all requirements have been completed. There is no EBOR until that signature is on the app. Therefore this whole subject is moot, unless this has nothing to do with proving all the MBs are completed.

Maybe it used to be an issue but not anymore.

Brian, tell your friend not to worry. If they give him grief at his EBOR he should point to the council's signature and say he doesn't need any more proof. Say it kindly. Say it humbly. But don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

As an example, some of my fond memories of my troop experience are the stories told around the patrol campfires. I learned so much about cars, planes, movies and girls from my patrol buddies. Those moments around the fire are part of the reason I'm a pilot and aero engineer.  I found patrol fires to be a rare sight in troops where the dominant leaders didn't have a youth experience. I am saddened by the number of posters here who say their scouts don't do troop campfires because the scouts find them boring. 

 

I found relationships among scouts in troops today to be more formal. The brotherly relation experience is replaced by a more team role type of relationship. Not as personal or close because their roles are more of adult expectation.

My troop went through a phase where campfires were falling out of favor. When I talked to the scouts what was really falling out of favor were the skits. So I told them to do something else and they made up something that was really great. My goal was not the event. It was the hanging out after the main event that was where the magic happened. It wasn't so much the fire as them just being on their own. I've seen the same thing with six scouts crammed into a tent playing cards. The brotherly relationships are still there. Granted, some brothers don't get along but that's part of it.

I'm not so sure I agree that a scouting experience is required. I'd say an outdoor experience is almost as good. There are parents in my troop that had no scouting experience but love the outdoors. They have picked up on the essence of scouting very quickly. They all understand how nice a fire is after a day of playing hard or how a challenge can lead to great memories. The people that aren't comfortable in the outdoors are the ones that are more likely to jump in and solve a problem for a scout.

As for getting parents to help out, the ones that like the outdoors are already there. They just need the training. Okay, that's an issue.

If, as BSA continues to say, a patrol is a small group of friends who are largely self-selected, the PLC members may need training.  Until 2001, districts offered Junior Leader Orientation Workshop, a one day course of the Patrol method and leadership skills.  That went away and has never been replaced, despite many promises that a new syllabus would be forthcoming (A Scout is . . .). 

I always thought it would be great to have a one day training to explain at least what PLs are supposed to do. I searched and it looks like some districts still do this. It would be great to see a syllabus.

So ask your EMR teacher if you can take the time off to honor some fallen soldiers. Maybe he's a vet. You won't know until you ask.

Think about this Brian. Yes, it won't be easy. You might get ridiculed. You might not. You might also help bring a tear to a parent of someone that has died for their country. You're right it's about self esteem. And this might just be the time where you realize that your self esteem is more about what you choose to do than what your friends choose for you to do. One thing us old farts know is that this change will be coming for you. It came for all of us as well.

Good luck. If you choose to accept this mission, we promise you we will dump heaps of praise on you high enough to cancel out anything your lazy friends say.