Jump to content

MattR

Moderators
  • Content Count

    3132
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    153

Posts posted by MattR

  1. On 3/16/2022 at 7:34 AM, Eagledad said:

    That SM was never in scouts as a youth and I've observed over the years that adult leaders without a youth scouting experience have a different expectation of the scouting experience than those who did have a youth scouting experience. To be fair, they aren't purposely taking the outing out of scouting, they just don't know. They start by doing what is easiest, and that is following instructions for advancement. 

    I'm going to push back on this a bit. I've met plenty of parents and kids that would have really enjoyed the free range part of scouts and yet had no desire to join. It seems to me the perception of scouts is more organized activity than make up your own fun. Advancement can easily be seen as everyone fulfilling nearly identical rrequirements. An expensive uniform that is used for meetings and travel is, well, uniform.

    The idea that scouts can choose their own activities is buried way down in what anyone sees from the outside.

    If that's the perception then is there any wonder why we struggle with parents that want highly structured activities? Maybe scouts is attracting the wrong kids and parents.

  2. 3 minutes ago, RichardB said:

    @fred8033 comes closest to the pin on the reason that multiple units of different Chartered Organizations need council permission to hold events together in the name of Scouting.    The charter granted is only for unit operation, not multiples.     

    Why?

    Here's my guess. No training, other than YP, is required to take scouts camping. Even if, say, IOLS were required, it's close to worthless. I say that because I taught some sections once and after having just 20 minutes to teach how to safely use and sharpen an axe I decided I didn't want anything more to do with it. Of course, I was also the district camping chair who organized the camporees and there is no training required for that as well (or at least I never took any). Anyway, my guess is the BSA is worried about clueless leaders creating dangerous activities. Am I close?

    I understand, but at the same time I don't see how a district event is any safer. The district people have the same training as the unit people.

    • Upvote 2
  3. 2 hours ago, ramanous said:

    Scouters in the troop seem hostile towards having parents involved in the troop regardless of their experience or training.

    All scouters or just a few? That and "hostile" could be a big red flag or it could be really poor communication.

    2 hours ago, ramanous said:

    At the same time, I hear complaints about adults not wanting to step up as volunteers (which isn't true.)

    Complaints in the same troop? Or just in general? If it's from the same people that sound hostile then  my suggestion is find the right people to talk to. There's a big communication problem.

    If it's in general and this someone in this troop said they don't want your help then I agree with the suggestion of talking to the committee chair or SM.

  4. I can't think of anything better than the tool man thing that @Eagledad suggested.

    Other than that, hype the fun things. Talk about the campfire. Roasting sugar, skits, the whole thing. While they won't cook their meals they can help decide what they want to eat. Give them 3 options and have them vote. If you're experienced with dutch ovens and are willing to make a cake or brownies, tell them you're going to bring an oven - and the whole cake thing, of course.

    If they feel good about sleeping and food, that should cover most of their fears.

     

    • Upvote 1
  5. Maybe the phrase needed is the CO is legally responsible for the unit. Finances and youth safety being the biggest issues. If something goes wrong,  who owns the mess? That's supposed to be the CO. It can't be a volunteer. Given that the CO is responsible, in order for the unit leaders to have any autonomy there needs to be trust between the unit and CO. Primarily, that means the CO needs to trust the unit leaders.

    That takes time and effort. It's the same thing for when the unit leaders allow the scouts to lead. Without trust the adults won't let go. Again, it takes time and effort to develop trust. Both sides need to actively work on it.

    • Upvote 2
  6. On 12/27/2021 at 9:27 AM, MattR said:

    A cat herding thread or a raccoon thread?

    I have bird feeders. And squirrels. So I got a bird feeder that shuts when the squirrels climb on it. Great, but what does this have to do with raccoons? Raccoons are not only smarter than squirrels, they are much heavier. They figured out if they just swing from the bird feeder they'll pull it off the tree and, voila, bird seed everywhere. I assume they shared with the squirrels. They did drag the feeder away and it took awhile to find it. I used their weight to my advantage and hung the feeder way out on the thin branches. Even the squirrels haven't figured it out. Then the hawk showed up.

     

    On 12/27/2021 at 2:43 PM, Oldscout448 said:

    A hawk is a bird and it's feeding at the bird feeder.   Seems appropriate.

    Update on the hawk: it tried 3 times to pick off our dog. The dog is a 10 lb fluff ball that we got after my mother in law passed. It will ignore any shouting to come home unless it's wearing a beeper collar. But it's 5 degrees out so I figure it won't go far. He didn't. I got to see the whole thing.  That hawk had to pull up every time at the last second. Unlucky for the hawk. Very lucky for the dog. And the dog is usually very timid but this time he wanted to play with the big bird with the big talons. And I'm shouting at the dog while also wanting to watch this fascinating bird hunt.

  7. Well, maybe it's my fault for poking a poorly written post and I apologize for that, but this thread needs to get back to scoutlike.

    @BobbyRo, if you care to explain both your scouting experience and where or what this confidential change in YP is, the rest of the people here might be able to make sense of some confusing statements. If not, I suggest this thread go back to where it was in 2018.

    I've hidden posts, including my own, that caused this mess.

    • Upvote 3
  8. @Eagledad, how ideas grow from the bottom up: a simple idea that works is easy to replicate and takes over the market. Say that a council has 5 such packs with waiting lines to get in. That would gain a lot of attention.

    Certainly there's an assumption that it would be popular enough to create a waiting line but, to be honest, parents are desperate for ways to get their kids away from screens and be more responsible.

    One of the approaches is as simple as "over the next week do something you've never done before. Then write it up on a piece of paper and bring it in." That is not only really simple but it develops confidence and instant results that parents see. And other kids will learn from it. A kid makes his family breakfast or gets a younger sibling ready for school or just walks to school on their own.

    • Upvote 1
  9. 22 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    Big changes have to come from the top. So, how can we influence the top to make changes?

    Start from the bottom but make sure the entire program is so simple that you can teach it to someone over a cup of coffee. Simplicity will make it easier to grow, much like scouting when  it was new.

    Make it explicit such that everyone involved knows. Just as importantly, explicitly remove the distractions. There is only one method - scouts learning to play and make their own decisions while abiding by the scout law. Advancement is a distraction if the goal is for scouts to define their fun or challenges. Simplify the uniform to be a tee-shirt and a neckerchief - both of which the scouts design.

    A good picture is defined as much by what's not there as what is. Make a good picture.

     

     

  10. 15 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    I can’t say what is hurting scout membership today because there are to many new variables with adding girls, bankruptcy, and COVID. But, 10 years ago I could show the biggest membership killer in the BSA was the Cubscout program. Less than 30% of Tigers end up joining a troop.

    While I believe National has made some bad policy decisions on the troop program over the last 30 years, the program over all doesn’t have big membership drops after a scouts first year. While history does show some troop membership drops, the number is difficult to analysis because much of the drop is mostly reflective of Cub membership trends.

    If the Cub program were changed to where 50% of tigers made it to troops, it would be a huge increase for all the BSA programs.

    Barry

    I was thinking about this in the context of, well, this thread - scouts learning to find their own fun - and maybe fixing the cub program might help the scout program.

    As a den leader I tried to follow the program of activity pins. It was difficult, hard, time consuming and not many cubs from my den moved to a troop. I was burned out, relieved it was over and the only reason I went to a troop was I knew what scouting could be.

    Contrast that with a program, linked to on page 1, of encouraging kids to learn how to play. The adults don't burn out because they're not trying to entertain kids while going over a bunch of repetitive activity pins. The kids do what they're naturally good at, they play. They make up games. They solve people problems. They look out for younger kids. The adults learn to back off. It also takes fewer adults.

    Imagine those kids transferring to a troop. They would already have the skills to be in a patrol. Given some options they could pick the skills they wanted to learn. The parents would already understand to let the scouts deal with issues.

  11. 37 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

    You’re doing it wrong.

    And the irony is this isn't a very elegant way to help :)

    But getting back to the OP, @5thGenTexan, I wonder if the approach used in Let Grow might really help a pack. The age range is similar. I think the basic idea is get a bunch of stuff, let them figure out how to play with it and only step in if it really is a safety issue (or maybe an opportunity to talk about the scout law as it pertains to a specific incident). If some scouts want to make skits then that's their program for the meeting while others do something else. I suppose adults could also be there to help with an activity pin, if that's what the scouts want to do. And if they just want to play with wood blocks and crash cars into it, then fine, they're at least not playing video games.

    One of my goals as SM was to push for a good game at each meeting. A successful meeting was a bunch of sweaty, smiling scouts at the end. It absolutely hurts me to see the troop push off a game because there are more important things to do.

    For a child, playing is important. The challenge for the adults is understanding how to play. Unfortunately, requirements are the antithesis of play.

    • Upvote 3
  12. I haven't seen the '21 report but our numbers were cut in half in '20. We had about 4000 cubs and scouts in '20. I don't keep in touch with those in the know anymore. Other than we were losing packs before covid, for lack of volunteers, I really don't know more. As @vol_scouter said, it's time for someone younger to take over.

  13. What I liked about that chapter I linked to was that the author has a very clear, concise description of the program. It is as close to fun with a purpose as I've ever seen. The kids have fun making up games and playing them. The purpose is they learn people skills and imagination. I think the BSA could borrow those ideas heavily. That model is really close to what younger scouts want. Just make it outdoors. Adapt the safety so, for example, if a scout wants to play with knives they first have to learn knife safety. When they realize the blade is no longer cutting it's a great time for them to learn how to really sharpen a blade. There is no need for requirements. Requirements are an external motivation whereas playing is all about internal motivation. When I play with my camera it's never about taking a photo that might impress anyone. It's not even to impress myself. It's just to see what happens. It's the best way to learn.

    Older scouts are a bit trickier. Some will be happy guiding younger scouts. Some will be happy doing campouts. Some will like the external motivation that a rank requires. However, none of them enjoy any requirements that can be done over zoom. When I was a scout I was driven by requirements that looked like a challenge. Cooking for your patrol seemed daunting. A 5 mile backpacking trip is still a memory I won't forget. Describe and discuss never existed, I never did it, or I have completely erased it from my memory.

    14 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

    It's interesting.  I had a conversation with a dad at Klondike and he said Scouts has become too easy.  He thinks Scouts would actually have more members if we increased the outdoor requirements (such as the ones you listed above).  More hiking, camping requirements.  I'm not sure if it would increase membership, but I think it could provide more value to those who are members.

     

    I agree. I may quibble that it's not so much too easy as too boring. The issue for me is the detailed requirements that get in the way of having fun while playing. The requirements for eagle should fit on a single sheet of paper. The Camping merit badge has 10 requirements, many with sub requirements, but if you flatten that tree there are 36 requirements. How about just do 50 nights of camping? First aid is do a wilderness first aid course. Swimming is swim 1000 yards. Biking is ride 250 miles of which one ride is at least 50 miles. Cooking is cook at least 21 meals that will feed at least 2 people with 3 of those that will feed at least 8. If you cook 21 meals, ride your bike 250 miles, do wilderness first aid, swim 1000 yards and camp 50 nights, you will learn something good. That's all that matters. Get rid of Personal Fitness, all the citizenship MBs, Family Life and all the others that tend to get done within 3 months of turning 18. The scouts remember none of it and it's just a time sink at MBU and summer camp. As for summer camp, it should be doing fun skills to improve those skills. No merit badges or requirements.

    For the scouts that really like the classroom environment, they need to be broken of that habit in scouts or at least not catered to. By catering to the zoom crowd the kids that want to do outdoors are pushed away. It's really difficult to get backpacking permits in national parks because there are so many people that love the outdoors. A lot of them were never scouts. A childhood friend of my son is a river raft guide, spends a fair amount of time in Costa Rica doing that, teaches snow boarding, has a wilderness EMT certification and can easily carry everything he needs in a backpack for months at a time. He has an adventurous spirit. He does not like schoolwork. He was never interested in scouts as a kid. That's the kind of kid that scouts should encourage.

    • Upvote 3
  14. Lenore Skenazy, who wrote the book Free Range Kids about just letting kids play more rather than all the structure/school work, helped start a new program called Let Grow,  which is about setting up more play at schools. There's more info at letgrow.org (there's a free chapter in a second edition of her book at https://letgrow.org/free-chapter/ about how to set up a program at schools - K-8) but anyone here could have written it. Kids learning to be social, solve problems, help out younger kids, be self sufficient, gain confidence and, most importantly, have a lot of fun. It also explicitly calls out the challenge of forcing adults to back off. It targets a different age group than scouts but there are a lot of similarities. Kids are in an environment where they're let free to figure it all out. Adults are around for safety only. One other important point is that where they've set this up at schools there tends to be waiting lines for kids to get in.

    What struck me about this is that the niche that the BSA supposedly has, the outdoors, is just wasted not only because of adults crowding out the kids abilities to learn how to make decisions, but that the advancement program is a major black hole of  time, creativity and fun.

    Maybe it's time for the BSA to eat crow and admit they don't have it all figured out.

    • Like 1
    • Upvote 3
×
×
  • Create New...