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LPC_Thumper

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  1. I think we have the question of popcorn sales is handled (rather nicely I might add), the other part of the question I read was about a "Key 4". I think it's important to review the concept that many Councils/Districts try to have a District/Council Chair that are known in the community. This person while well intended and a real aid needs some help getting the Scouting Volunteers to line up. A District/Council Vice-Chair is a GREAT way to do that. Many times that Vice-Chair is also the program chair (since Program Committee has several others that report to them).

     

    Hope this helps. You might want to refer back to the District Operations Book that is published by National. It makes all this very clear.

     

    (Wow I just compressed my WEEK at Philmont into a couple of paragraphs. Sure glad I like going there :D)

  2. Here's one more voice for you...

     

    First Welcome to the forums!!

     

    Second, go right ahead and do the work. Even if you do it wrong. It shows how important these are to you, it reflects that you are trying to be proactive, and basically proves that you are KEWL (like how I did the spelling?) As I was saying, even if you missed the point, even if you got it wrong... You are trying to lace your boots tight, and hike down the trail.

     

    I counsel both of these badges, and I can't tell you how many times I have sat with a Scout and thought "Why can't you just try on your own? Why do you think you can't try this without me?" Good luck with these two, and good luck getting your Eagle. It's a lot of work, but it is well worth it.

  3. All I can tell you is what they taught me at PTC this summer.

     

    Partial Merit Badge work is fine. It is very acceptable to think that a boy could start a badge with a staff member from a summer camp (that might actually not be from his Council) and then get home and find a counselor for that badge so he may finish. This relationship is to only work on those items the Scout has not yet finished. The conselor may retest on previously completed items only when he feels that there might not be a working knowledge of the prerequisite items that are still left unsigned.

     

    This could help motivate a Scout to finish up, since if the Counselor turns up an area where you are exposed to doing more work again, wouldn't it be better to finish this up??

     

    Hope this helps.

  4. Sounds to me like we need to continue to be aware that people watch us, and judge us by our behavior.

     

    I understand that in a commercial camp ground there are different sets of rules, but we need to be careful when we car camp that we still are courteous and kind. Or does that only apply when we are on the John Muir Trail?

  5. The western troops want part of this too. PLEASE let us know what you don't have. I'm serious. Are you missing Dutch Ovens, tents, what? Let us help, please!

     

    I'm so tired of feeling totally helpless in this, I want to get involved. I would love to help you guys. Do you have a place to camp this year? How do you feel about surfing in the Pacific, can we help you?

     

    I know of many units here in the Wine Country of California (for those of you that don't know California Council Geography) Los Padres is 1/2 between LA & SF along the coast. Please let us help.

  6. DO lasagna

     

    Brown 1 pound of ground beef, drain, and set aside (optional)

    In same DO AFTER you drain greese from hamburger, or place 1/2 Cup of oil in pan.

    Layer on level of uncooked lasagna noodles, sauce (you can use ANY sort of Italian sauce for this, cans, bottles, home made), the the meat (if used), then white cheese (motzarella is best, but provolone works, as does jack, or white, or cheddar) repeat until one package of noodles have been used.

    Top off with sauce and then cheese.

     

    Use about a 12" DO (regular, or deep, again both work)

    Place about 6 pieces of charcoal on the bottom, and ring the top of the lid. (Charcoal is lit well before placing)

     

    15 minutes after starting, rotate lid clockwise 1/4 turn

    15 minutes after 1st rotation (30 minutes after you started) rotate lid clockwise 1/4 turn AND rotate entire DO 1/2 turn counter-clockwise.

    15 minutes after 2nd rotation (45 minutes after you started) roate lid clockwise 1/4 turn

    15 minutes after 3rd rotation (1 hour after you started), check for completion. If done serve, if not repeat rotations again, this time check at each step.

     

    If you've done DO, I'm sorry for the detail, if you haven't trust me... we let our New Scout Patrols do this, and they are just amazed how easy it is. (It really does WORK)

  7. In my troop, the TG are appointed by the SM because of their GREAT scout skills, and attitude. It is known that the good scouts are TGs, the SPL and ASPL or left after the new TG are appointed. Their appointment is only for 6 months, and we have a special campout for them (which includes a trip to our local water park). As the CC, I fix a special BBQ for them the last evening of their training.

     

    They leave their regular patrol, but leave their patrol patch on their sleeve. The meet the incoming scouts and help them decide how many new patrols we will have. We keep our patrols aged based, so the patrol that is formed now, stays until they age out. They start teaching during that first patrol meeting, help them decide on their patrol name, flag, yell, everything. They help them organize their patrol box, and get them to the market to shop. Their goal is to work themselves out of a job by the end of the first six months.

     

    They and the SPL & ASPL hold 3 campouts over the first year. These campouts are also staffed by adults as needed. We call them advancement campouts, and again they are a big deal. As an older boy, you can't go to our High Adventure trips unless you have served on staff of an advancement campout. (We do trips that older boys like to do).

     

    As soon as the NSP, can make a menu that reflects proper nutrition, involves actually cooking food, and involves setting up their patrol camp site, we as adults invite the TG to hang out with us. (Provide his food, pitch his tent, that he gets by himself, etc) When we know that he has accomplished the task, we ask him to remove the TG patch, we also give him a placque that recognizes his contributions to the troop, and invite him to go and join his troop again. It's a big deal that we handle at a campfire, we also tell the NSP, that they aren't a NSP anymore. See NSP need TG, our troop no longer has a TG, therefore we don't have a NSP. We tell them that they are now ready to act like all the other patrols, and don't need a baby sitter anymore. Up to now (only been doing this for about 9 years now) this has worked for us.

     

    Hope this helps...

  8. I have been on staff for Woodbadge 21 Century, let's sort of review...

     

    According to the official course guide, you should have youth Venturers on staff. They come in during the second half of course. They are really there for LNT, and any other needs that could arise (remember you have Cub Leaders, Comittee folks, etc that may have very limited camping experience, and could create problems for staff).

     

    Yes they are on staff, no they don't wear beads, as far as them actually attending WB, I think (notice now I'm changing from what I've read to what I think) that if the invitation to them spelled out their roll, and if they understood they weren't getting the full training, the feeling of "been there, done that" is removed.

     

    As I read, I realized that no one has weighed in that actually has a copy of the course with them. While I don't have a copy of the course in front of me, I can tell you that on the section dealing with LNT, they give the idea of having a Crew come and present this example. The Troop Guide has a lecture, and then the Crew shows how it actually works.

  9. In our troop, when the boys get old enough to go on our high adventure trips (we rotate Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base, and Jambo) we provide them with a "lung powered, energy efficient, pocket radio". (That's right, we stole an idea from the old Woodbadge course...) The boys love it, they can pull any song, any time they want. The "radio" is 4.25" X 11", has 2 custom bent metal antentae (they are called staples for those of you with no imagination). The boys love it, the adults do too. This summer as the ran around Jambo, they developed this top 10 list, take it away Casey Cassem...

     

    10 - The Quartermaster's Store

    9 - It Ain't Gonna Rain No More

    8 - On Top of Spaghetti

    7 - Pink Pajamas

    6 - I love the Mountains (we have our own version that talks

    about local vegetation)

    5 - The Canoe Song

    4 - If I Weren't a Boy Scout

    3 - Ain't That Funky

    2 - Robert Baden-Powell

    1 - Malu Malu Malu

     

    You'll notice most of these are not serious, most have actions, or dance steps, and the boys love them. Rather than saying let's sing (insert song name here), their radios have the songs numbered (there are about 30 songs for each annual update of the radio), and they tell each other which song to sing by deciding on "channels". You'll hear things like "OK scouts and scouters, tune your radio to channel 24... ready? 1, 2, 3, 4..."

     

    Hope this helps.

  10. E,

     

    I have read many of your posts and been very interested in your unique, and direct approach. May I offer you my shot at the "speech", when young men in our troop have held Eagle for six months, I talk to them (under direction of our SM). It takes about 20 seconds.

     

    I ask them if they are interested in earning Eagle. (most tell me they are)

     

    I ask them what hurdles they still have. (most tell me about one of the big 3 merit badges (you know which those are) and we talk about how to get past them)

     

    I ask about their project. (it amazes me, how often these boys know what they want to do. Some have ideas that aren't valid Projects, but we talk about why they want to do that, and sure enough, they come around)

     

    I then tell them I have one last thing to tell them, and ask them if they have any questions. (There may be some, but most of the time there aren't any requests for information)

     

    I then hold out my left hand, and look them in the eye. I ask them if they understand that there are people that make excuses for not getting done. I tell them how proud of them I am, and how I don't want them ever making excuses for their actions.

     

    I end up telling them, "You are too smart, too strong, too brave, to ever have to worry about what could have been, or what should have been. You need to get done if for no other reason than you are too good to be labeled as someone that just couldn't finish."

     

    Many young men over the years, have come back to me with that badge on their chest to thank me for what I did. I look at them and say, "I didn't do anything special, I simply spoke the truth."

     

    Let me ask you, is this too pushy? Am I overstepping my bounds. or doing something wrong? In all honesty, all I'm trying to do is help them see what's going to happen. Good luck with your speech!

  11. I am going to answer your question about what we get from Philmont and Jambo with a question.

     

    If I told you how to have a troop have 27 Eagle Scouts in it's first 7 years of existence, would you like to copy the program? Or how about having 10 under 21 year old ASMs, would you like that? Would you like to have the boys that graduate out (at age 18 of course) that are away at school drop in on your troop meetings when they are in town? Maybe you'd like to have those young men that make Eagle before they turn 18 to work on palms and serve as Leaders of YOUR troop? Do I have your attention yet?

     

    Our older boy program is a rotation of High Adventure activities. We go to Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base, and Jambo. We just include it on our calendars. You qualify by holding a position of leadership during the previous year, passing the same Scout Spirit requirements you had for rank advancement, and get the next rank (even if your're an Eagle, you can get a palm). Our boys love it, they work with the younger ones, and so far, we've only had one young man that made Eagle, and then disappeared. I think we've stubbled onto something that helps the boys as was previously mentioned (by lots of people, and done very well), and also it helps the troop.

     

    Just my two cents worth, I'm sure others will have other things to say, it just works for us.

  12. Capella,

     

    First off, WELCOME...

     

    Now with that said, do you have a copy of the LDS Scouting Manual? Talk to your ward clerk. You'll find that in LDS units fundraising more often that 1/year will get your Stake President excited (Polictically Correct speak, for UPSET, as it's rather clear)

     

    The idea of having a first aid kit first, is a great one. Many people will tell you that you have to have matching tents, patrol boxes, matching dishes, etc is VERY important. Out here in California, we would say "Huh?" You can run a nice troop without any of this nice things.

     

    There is really no reason not to attend New Leader Essientals, be sure to take your Young Men's President with you, and a member of the Bishopric. (You might have to remind them that there are many leaders will tell them that 80% of their time should be spent with the youth.)

     

    If you have young men that can't get uniforms, can't go to camp, can't do the young men's program, that there is money (if not on the ward/branch level then it's there on a stake/district one) to help.

     

    I think you may now notice from all the specifics that you have someone out here, that knows the program. Let's just leave it as I'm an un-named source that knows exactly what he's talking about, OK? Good luck, and let us know how it goes. You'll have what you need, just talk to your Bishop/Branch President, OK?

  13. Hi John,

     

    What I do is what is explained in the handbook for leaders. The scout has up unitl his 18th birthday to ccmplete the requirements of a certain badge. If the young man did a poor job on something, and you signed off on it, then you just work on the areas that were not completed. If on the other hand the young man is sure he had completed certain things and has no record of it, I tell him I can't remember what he did, and ask him to redo the items he doesn't have completed.

     

    If I face a situation of a young man being discouraged by this, I just tell him that I want to help him feel like he has badges and ranks, rather than pretty pieces of cloth and nice thread. Most boys want to earn what they receive, in my experience, boys that work at Scouting build that trait. My explanation seems to work well for them.

  14. Reading this post reminds me of my son's first summer camp. I was on campstaff, and my 12 year old son was taking basketry from my Woodbadge Ticket Counselor (for those that haven't done WB, let's just say that the WTC helps with goals that you work on after the course)

     

    I was sitting between the 2 of them, and we were all enjoying the shade, a cool soda, and just visiting. My son was working on his basket, oh and by the way, he was doing it wrong. I (the Assistant Camp Program Director) took as much of this as I could stand and finally took the project away from my son, undid the parts that he had done incorrectly, and was in the process of fixing the basket.

     

    My buddy took off his ball cap, and proceeded to ignore G2SS... He hit me (with his hat) grabbed the project from me, stood up, looked at me, pointed at his chair, and said "Leave that boy alone! Sit and that chair and be happy!"

     

    He undid the part of the project I had worked on, handed it back to my son and said "You know he means well... You're lucky to have a dad like this, just don't let him do that again."

     

    Was this a problem? Not for me, nor my son. Was this kind? Did I mention we all laughed when he got in our new chairs? My son is still as proud as anyone of this basket (even if it was done incorrectly). He earned his badge, and is proud of being a 4th generation Eagle Scout.

     

    I share this story to try and bring home that point that sometimes we do things that we know we shouldn't. When we see those things happen we need to try and correct them as best as we can, without shooting the messanger.

     

    What do you do with anchors that don't want to be sails? We try and find areas that they'd love to work, where they have the skills and temprament for. I was once a COPE director, because the camp director needed one. I'm much more equiped to be more of support staff, and would love that chance to help. I think all of our jobs are to try and do the best we can for the boys. Those sorts that are in it for the glory, should be reminded that this is a volunteer organization, and that it is much more glamorous on the other side of the fence. Good luck with this one, it's hard.

  15. Wow Jerry, here you are a Cubmaster and you're willing to tackle the sacred cow of patch trading? ;)

     

    Your points are VERY on point. I have been too all the major National High Adventure Bases, and while I'm willing to say that I have engaged in the described behavior, I am not willing to say it was the highlight of my time. I would be VERY concerned as a Scouter if one of my charges felt that patch trading was the highlight. On the other hand if a comment was made along the lines of, "While trading patches I met some really cool people, and we are e-mailing each other, or we hung out, or ???" I'd just smile and tell them how cool that was.

     

    I'm of the opinion that my 500 patch collection is a reminder of people I've met, friends I've made, places I've been, and I think that is what it will always do.

     

    I trade patches to have fun, and meet new people, I don't trade patches like stocks. I don't do it for the money. Yes there are books that tell you 2 of my patch is worth 1 of yours, or whatever, but what I have always explained as I have traded is "I'll gladly trade 2 of mine for 2 of yours." That way you can grow your personal collection, and your trading pool. I have traded some of the dirtiest, sewn on patches with boys with dirty fingers for my prestine, zip-lock baggied wonder patches, since it's all about the boys anyway.

     

    You'll find people that won't like my responses, but you'll also find many that are reading this thinking "yup this is exactly what patch trading is". I hope you always run into the latter, and never come across the first group.

  16. Nice discussion. As an Eagle B of R Chair, I ask the boys about the Scout Law. I ask them to explain how they live by the points. If they stumble on how the live "A Scout is reverent" I ask them what that means to them. Some times I hear about weekly church attendance, other times I hear about weakly church attendance, but lots of time thinking about what they can do to make the world a better place. Anything along this line gets a smile and a nod. If they don't get this, we work towards understanding that there are lots of ways to do one's "duty to God".

  17. From PA could you get to the Florida Sea Base? My California kids (we live in a VERY nice beach town) LOVED the Sea Base. What about a trip to Northern Tier? I'm not sure if the canoe trip was "the bom" or getting a greeting and their pictures on the Twin's Jumbo-tron during a Twin's baseball game. Or was the Axe models, in their Peter Gabriel costumes telling giving them samples and telling them they just couldn't resist a man in uniform...

     

    Some of the adults held their breath so they wouldn't laugh out loud as these boys talked about how cool that was, and how they were going to buy this aftershave just as soon as they got home.

  18. We have engineers from JPL, a West Point Cadet, a mormon missionary, a Sea Bee, and a Green Beret among other good guys as alumni from our troop. The thing I like about us, is that they all are warmly greeted and encouraged to talk to the current scouts. It is very common for those that are away at college to drop in during the summer as they wait for their buddies to get back home. This summer I've learned that many of the more "propeller headed" of them have figured out how to set up VOIP and talk on the internet. They visit from each other's college dorm room and compare the food to what they ate at Jambo, or Philmont, or NT, or some other summer camp.

     

    Our troop has an anniversary dinner, and we read the names of the boys that have been in the troop. We also send out invitations to those families that aren't currently in the troop. Their parents come and spend 30 seconds talking about what alumni of Troop 26 are now doing.

  19. I've had the chance to sit on an Eagle Board where one of the references basically said "Don't pass this kid, he isn't an Eagle." (I'm paraphrasing, but you get the point).

     

    We tried to stay open minded, but when we were being introduced to him, another adult on the board recognized him as the young man he had to take to court over a hit and run incident involving the adult's parked car, and the youth's driven one.

     

    We let the boy make his presentation, and when he was done, we had him leave the room. That's when I realized the situation with the other board member, the letter of non-endorsement, and my gut feeling that he wasn't what an Eagle Scout is.

     

    We invited him back in, and we tried to help him see what he would need to do. He was unwilling to take any direction from us, and in fact his CC who WAS (that was capitalized on purpose)the District Advancement Chair told us we HAD to pass this young man. We didn't. In fact we wrote a very precise letter informing him what he would need to do to start to repair our opinions. In the case you are presenting, I think the most important thing to do is let others know what's up. Had we just known him to be a lousy, frieghtened drive it surely wouldn't be a pattern. But the more we learned the more we knew what we really had... It wasn't a fun thing to do.

  20. Perhaps a conversation with the CC with the idea that you are planning on speaking with the COR about her behavior. I'm thinking that if things have gotten to the point of replacement, that you have facts, and witnesses rather than just your opinions.

     

    It's always sad when we have to take these steps, but when it comes up you need to move on it. Usually Chartered Organizations don't want these types of things happening in their units. A talk with a COR can help you keep the right people with the program. This is going to be sticky, good luck with it.

  21. I know of a few...

     

    I really like Camp Chawanakee (Sequoia Council) is a great camp on Shaver Lake. I was there as a boy, and have taken troops there as an adult. I have also served on staff there, and really like it.

     

    I have inspected, and been inspired by Camp Whitset (Los Angeles Council). It is on Huntington Lake. They run a great program.

     

    These two camps are really for troops that have a mix of boys that leans toward older scouts.

     

    Camp Cherry Valley (LA Council) on Catalina Island is a GREAT camp. GREAT water front, actually better water front than Florida Sea Base. (This camp is geared more for a complete spread of ages)

     

    A wonderful younger boy camp is Rancho Allegra (Los Padres Council... gee what to you the the "lpc" in my name stands for?) The Ranch is a great first or second year camp. About 30 minutes from Santa Barbara, up on the hills and out in the country. Not a good older boy camp, but they run a program that is aimed at the idea of "We know camp is fun. We know being away from your folks is hard, but come on, we're going to have fun!!" (As a program director, I knew that when I found homesick boys I could take them to the kitchen, and staff would help them make cookies with ice cold milk. Do you know how hard it is to stay homesick when you are having fun and staying busy??)

     

    If you want any contact info on any of these camps, just let me know...

  22. As a former camp program area coordinator (that would be the adult in charge of an area, in case that title is a camp specific one), I watched from different eyes than I had as a Scoutmaster at the same camp.

     

    The camp tries to react to the demands of the troops, after all if we don't supply what they want, why would they come back? If they don't come back, it's safe to assume we won't have this camp in the future... You following the logic? So if the troops are asking for more merit badge times, we'll supply them, if they want more free time, or more High Adventure time, or whatever, we'll do our best to supply that.

     

    Now as a Scoutmaster, I bring the troop to camp and the boys have been worked up by their parents to bring home as many MBs as possible. Many times these boys are very willing to please, and want to ensure that Mom & Dad are pleased with him. Mom & Dad have heard that camp is a great place to earn those badges for Eagle, and heck isn't that why we're doing this? Many times that all they know is that you earn enough badges from camp, and they'll make Eagle, that's all they know, and all they care about...

     

    Now where did they learn that? YOU Mr(s) Scoutmaster all but said that. They don't know program, you do. YOU allowed other adults to tell them this.

     

    When I got to help start a new troop after being an SM in a different one, and after working on staff at a camp, we spent time with the parents and tried to help them understand. When we taught them what could happen, or boys came to camp with that attitude too. We take our older boys to some sort of a High Adventure camp, and have many kids that will do two camps per summer. The older guys refer to them as "working" camp and "fun" camp. The new adults hear this from the older boy's parents and fall into the attitude as well. It works for us, good luck with this...

  23. After writting a nice thesis on this thread, I realized that I was rambling and not to the point. Let me say this:

     

    On behalf of LDS Scouting, I'd like to apologize to all that have been effected by poor choices of our various leaders. Heck on behalf of Boy Scouts of America I'd like to apologize for the poor choices of our leaders.

     

    I don't know why such folks are attracted to Scouting, I've just seen it happen. Yes I've seen LDS leaders back off of claims they made at Scout Camp about them being above the rules right after I pulled out my copy of the LDS Scouting handbook. These folks hide behind what they preceive to be a cloak. I would look any of you in th eye, and tell you that was wrong, and not what the Church had intended.

     

    It's easy to try and tell others that you have something special, and maybe even think you do... The reality is that if you think you have a special dictum to deviate from your local Council/District, you are wrong. Speaking as a Council volunteer (I'm a member of my Council's Executive Board, and have spent many years serving in my District volunteer staff) I have seen various LDS leaders try to do this, and be quite surprised to see I'm not going to chnage, since I know the program.

     

    An earlier post refers to a study from BYU that shows tenure of scoutleaders. I mentioned that IF BYU had actually published that report I wouldn't doubt it, but now I've learned that none of the four stakes in my council were used, and so now I'm wondering how valid that claim is.

     

    I do think that there are more LDS SMs than any ohter CO, and that can lead to more untrained SMs than any other CO. But I'm not willing to paint all with the brush that ALL LDS Scouters are bad (why would I paint myself with that brush?)...

     

    I think it's tragic that we have had such problems this year. I think the conversation should change to "How to we keep from making Scouting a death sport?" Any ideas?

  24. Sorry I've missed this for so long, but between summer camp, camp inspections, work, family vacation, etc I'm just getting back.

     

    In the past I've taken the voice of an experienced LDS Scouter. I'm sadden by all the tragedies that we as a community have had this summer, one hurt boy is one too many. I don't even want to talk about boys that have lost their lives while Scouting. But let's look at a couple of statistics;

     

    1 - If BYU news is reporting that the average term of scout leaders is 7 - 9 months, I'm accepting that at face value. However, this is in direct conflict with the guidelines that the General Church Leadership supplies in their Publication "Scouting" They suggest a minimum of two years, and encourage more seniority than that.

     

    2 - I'm really not sure if there are more LDS boys in Utah than my home state of California, but what I do know is that there are more wards in California. More wards then leads us to more Scoutmasters. Each ward should have their own Pack/Troop/Team/Crew (based on the number of boys in their ward, again using "Scouting" manual from LDS church)

     

    3 - I'm wondering if this has more to do with a particular council's problems, or a limited number of council's problem. I'm wondering if some how certain units are not taking advantage of council training, or really applying the G2SS. While my information is old, I still think there are only 3 or 4 councils in the state of Utah. I also know from first hand experience that there is only one council in Montana, and that many of the units there really run things on their own.

    The young man that was lost, and then found was an invited guest of the son of a staff member, and so was there without his unit (just a little detail, that points the finger where it needs to be, this wasn't a loss due to a break down in troop policy, but rather a camp's policy)

     

    I understand that all of this is second guessing, and hind-sight is always 20/20, but I'm just sure if you can lump all LDS scout behavior into a couple of council's statistics, that's what most of the articles show me.

     

    A friend of mine was one of the leaders of the troop in Yellowstone. He called me to get some support for what had gone on. I asked him how he could have let boys wade in the water on the banks of a river. Didn't he understand that unless you have an authorized water front, everybody stays out of the water? He actually told me they hadn't considered it a water front, since no one was swimming. I asked when he had his water training, and he told me he wasn't sure when his council provided that. I explained to him about the basics of Safety Afloat (yes I know it's called something else, but you know what I mean), he was amazed that National had such a program.

     

    This man travels 4 hours roundtrip to attend RT. There are problems when your district stuff is 2 hours away. His district is basically all LDS, only because the wards are the only COs willing to sponsor units. This makes those statistics tilted as well, doesn't it?

     

    This has gone on long enough, but guys there are many things going on here. Let's hope for some healing, and let's see what we can do to make these next 12 months much more quiet as far as losing our youth!

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