Liz

Are people generally finding these available through the local Scout Shop now? When my daughter earned Protect Yourself that was awarded last Fall, her Cubmaster mentioned he had to special order it, but I don't recall whether it was through the local shop or online. 

She has now finished the Yo-Yo adventure. Paying shipping from the online store doesn't seem very thrifty when we live so near the Council Office. But I'd like to be able to advise the other adult leaders in our new Pack correctly on the procedure. 

Our Council made it very clear in a letter sent out today that their assets are entirely separate from National. 

I suppose any Council could also be named in a suit, but each Council is its own legal and financial entity, and not financially responsible for the actions of Scouters in other councils. 

I'm so frustrated right now. There are only two female Troops in our city. Most of the Webelos girls are choosing the other one. I suspect they have a more put-together look and feel compared to our Troop, as theirs is entirely adult-run and ours is run by a bunch of novice Scouts who have not been at this Scouting thing very long. 

We have a great group of girls, but they are learning as they go and, within reason, we let them make a fair number of mistakes along the way (and they are doing AWESOME at learning and doing better each time). I'm very happy with our Troop and I'm excited to cross my own daughter over into it next year. But in the meantime, I am at a loss as to how to adequately convey the value of a youth-run Troop over a possibly sleeker, more well-oiled adult-run Troop. 

Ideas? 

Well, although I want my daughter carrying her (currently Webelos) handbook with her to events where she might need it, I don't want her carrying it around everywhere. It's already falling apart. The back cover is ripped halfway off and there's at least one page in the middle that's missing entirely. 

I am buying her a book cover that's designed/marketed as a Bible cover. She picked something in purple, but there's a really nice one on Amazon that looks like a pair of boy scout pants - has pockets in front and even a compass attached to it. Almost all the reviews on it are from people who are successfully using it as Scouts BSA handbook covers. 

I'm sore about the going to only spiral bound books.  I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that in the next year before my daughter crosses over that they'll bring back the hardback as an option. 

20 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

 

The two packs I was with (in two different councils) did not - their first digit was a "0".  Maybe councils can set up their own rules with unit numbers?

I can see how it could be helpful to have a different digit for different unit types, although it would be just as easy to use a unit type field in the database.

Yes, it is by council. There are “common” leading digit conventions but there will always be variations. 

12 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

My guess would be that while many units are not aware of it, your council is probably just the same as mine, in that all of those girl troops have a numerical prefix that identifies them as a female unit.  Here in Central Florida Council a CO that sponsors both a boy troop and girl troop can request they use the same base number, but the girl unit number begins with 4.  My CO has chosen not to sponsor a girl troop right now, but be do have several in our district.  As Roundtable Commissioner I see those girls units numbered 4XXX to distinguish them from the corresponding boy troop.

That's how ours is, and we are required to have 4 digits, starting with 4. 

The District rep wasn't very happy when our committee chose troop number 422 (4/22, Earth Day) and chose not to put the leading 4 on our uniforms or public facing materials. As committee secretary I've started marking the minutes and other internal documents as Troop (4)442. None of the boy troops have to put 4-number numerals on their uniforms (they all start with the number 1 I think; packs start with 0, crews start with 2, and I think Explorer posts are 3)so I don't see why we have to  do it. Only the crews actually use all 4 numbers on their uniforms. No idea why they do that. 

It's annoying and creates confusion, but we honestly couldn't think of any good 4 digit numbers starting with 4 that would have any meaning to our unit. 

20 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I’m going to agree with David, your posts support the point that without god, humans can only feel good about themselves by beating each other up. Did you purposely leave god out of the discussion because god, not religion, was the original reference?

You seem to be doubling down on the man vs man of religion. Ok, man has a problem with pride, that’s given. The point that was presented is that man is fickle and a unperfect, god is perfect and unchanging. So where should a scout go to define values? Please don’t throw the religion analogy at the question again, this is about who a scout should trust more, God or yourself?

And you don’t need to answer, its a thought provoking question.

Barry

 

I never even entered that argument, Barry, let alone came close to anything you're saying I said. 

You're conflating "faith," "religion," and "any one religion" together though. Faith and religion are not the same thing, and one religion is not the same as "religion" as a whole. 

I suppose it might be a tough competition if you pitted the world Scouting movement against, say, the Roman Catholic Church, but at that point you'd be splitting hairs and missing the point of what they're trying to say. 

21 minutes ago, David CO said:

It says, "We believe Scouting is a force more powerful than one person or one religion."  I find this statement to be both arrogant and offensive.  Scouting is not a more powerful force than my religion.  

I think this quote just goes to prove Barry's point.

 

Well, we'll just have to disagree here I guess. I don't consider my religion, or yours (I don't even know what yours is, but it doesn't matter) to be more powerful than a youth development movement that teaches skills, values, and citizenship. My religion is not my god. It is just one possible expression of my reverence for my god. I have a hard time even comprehending how that statement could be either arrogant or offensive. 

I could write an entire essay on how I have seen people fall into idolatry of religion or religious symbols; but it would drag us too far off the topic at hand, so I won't. 

This is an excerpt from the Scouts for Equality webpage, describing their position on reverence. I feel it is well reasoned and well argued. 

Quote

The Scout Law: “A Scout is Reverent” 

Reverence is a deeply-held, constantly evolving set of beliefs and ethics. For some, it is embodied by organized religion. For others, reverence is represented by a respect for others and the world around us. Reverence is as much about respect for one another’s beliefs—or lack thereof—as it is about a Scout’s own beliefs.

The Boy Scouts have said as much in their own teaching about reverence.

From the BSA’s charter and bylaws:

“The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading, “Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.” (emphasis added)

Consistent with the BSA’s policy, Scouts for Equality believes that showing respect towards the beliefs of others is consistent with the Scout Oath and Law. We expect all of our members to show reverence and respect for all religious beliefs and philosophical positions.

We believe Scouting is a force more powerful than one person or one religion. By welcoming people from all religious beliefs and philosophical positions, including non-theistic ones in Buddhist, Unitarian, and other traditions, Scouting can better fulfill its vision of preparing youth in America to become responsible, participating citizens and leaders.

It is our position that regardless of where you are in your search for truth and meaning, Scouting has a lot to offer to every young person. We feel the BSA would be wise to follow the lead of the GS-USA by dropping the explicitly theistic requirement without fundamentally changing the religious nature of the organization.

 

 

 

On 1/20/2020 at 1:51 PM, ParkMan said:

My take away is that even our printed materials don't make the case that a Scout should obey all adults.  He should respect those who are "superior" - but that's as far as it goes.  If an adult comes along and tells the Scout to do something different on first aid, the Scout needs to show that he/she respectfully considered it, but made a different decision.  This is the lesson I think we teach - we need to respect adults - but not necessarily obey them.

I agree. And actually I go so far as to teach my own children to respect everyone - adults, peers, younger children, and even animals. Obedience comes into play when there is a superior. If your boss tells you to clean the bathroom even though your "job" is, let's say, a cashier and not a janitor, you should probably obey; the bathroom isn't going to clean itself just because the janitor called in sick. If an EMT shows up in a first aid situation and tells you to step back and let them take over, or "Hold this for me" or whatever, you obey because the EMT is the expert in the field and you may know something but you're not an EMT. Some random person off the street, however, would need to identify himself or herself as an authority before obedience should be conferred: "Step back, I'm a paramedic" or "Step back, I'm a cardiologist," or "Step back, I'm a midwife" - depending on the scenario. If the authority fits the case, obedience applies. If "Step back, I'm an auto mechanic" comes along, obey if you're trying to get a car started, but not necessarily if you're trying to stabilize a broken neck and you have Wilderness First Aid training but the Auto Mechanic clearly doesn't. That's the time for assertiveness and leadership skills, NOT obedience; I don't care how much older the Auto Mechanic is. Teaching our youth to know the difference is a very key element of their upbringing and Scouting offers a great opportunity for this. 

I once worked alongside another Troop committee member who described herself as "Obedient to a fault." She'd say things like "Council office said we can't do that" or whatever and I'd ask, "So, did you tell them this" or "Did you ask them that?" and she would always say no and generally I'd give them a call and politely talk the situation over and usually get a different answer. I remember her talking to me about how much anxiety she had about anything that could be perceived as second-guessing a peer, let alone an authority, and it always kind of stuck with me as something I wanted to make sure my kids would not grow up to be burdened with. While appropriate obedience is indeed a good skill, if we over-teach our children obedience, then we risk them growing into over-obedient adults who struggle with decision-making. 

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Well, he never met some of my scouts! But his point still resonates.

The movement is a net good for this country.

Same. I have known a few people engaging and getting convicted for criminal behavior who have been Boy Scouts. My ex husband was a Boy Scout and has been in the local jail at least twice not including his stint in a federal penitentiary (there's a reason he's my ex).  Some of these boys even in units I've been directly involved in (peers of my older kids). Even an Eagle Scout. 

But OVERALL I think it has a positive influence. The kid I'm thinking of specifically probably would have gotten in a lot more trouble than a DUI and minor in possession if it weren't for the positive impact of Scouting. He had a lot of cards stacked against him, and most of the time he has made more good choices than bad ones. 

Can we send the Dictionary Police after whomever proof-read this article though? There's kind of a big difference between Commuted and Committed. 

On 1/30/2020 at 11:11 AM, qwazse said:

Yes. This was an issue that my church brought up when deciding if it should sponsor a pack.

Yup. My local religious group that I asked to sponsor our girl's troop ultimately got hung up on the atheism thing. Although it's not an atheist group of people, several members had friends or family members who were atheist and would not stand for the organization sponsoring anything that might even have the appearance of excluding them. 

I thought the agreement that was reached between the BSA and the Universalist Unitarians might be enough to convince them that they need not worry about the semantics of "what exactly do you believe constitutes 'god'" but it didn't go far. We ended up getting chartered by an entirely secular organization that was ONLY concerned that we wouldn't exclude LGBTQ youth, and we meet after hours in a public school building. 

https://www.uua.org/children/scouting/memorandum-understanding 

We all know that G2SS is there to protect our behinds as leaders, but in the process, yes, I do believe it also makes the kids safer.

I feel a lot more confident knowing my unit follows the G2SS especially the YPT portions. Are there some risks that don't get taken that maybe our kids could benefit from? Sure, probably. But overall I see the guidelines as a positive. 

Then again, I work with Safe Kids USA and am perhaps more acutely aware of the kinds of things that cause preventable injuries in kids. 

6 hours ago, Treflienne said:

 

I agree with Liz.

If Sally and Susy are 25 months apart in age, they can NEVER tent together.

If Sally and Sarah are 23 months apart in age, YPT age rules ALWAYS permit them to tent together.

It doesn't change month by month.  The kids can easily figure out who in their patrols they can tent with.  And it is the same for the next camping trip, also.

But it does mean that a barely 11-year-old cannot tent with an older 13-year-old.

Exactly this. It makes it simpler because it doesn't change with the seasons. If Aeryn (my kiddo) and Samantha can tent together, they can tent together throughout their years in Scouting. If Samantha and Michelle cannot tent together, then that doesn't change just because Samantha had a birthday in April and now it's June. They can't tent together ever.

But apparently, they can yurt or cabin or lavvu together in large groups.  

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Ah, the age of dealing with fear. Everybody excepting your same age tent mate is a suspected bad guy. Not very scout like I guess, but keeps everyone safe. Unless that same age tent mate has been bullying you since Cub Scouts. True situation we had to deal with.

OP, what do the parents say? 

Barry

Yes, that's a situation very similar with what I ran into with my oldest kid's first patrol, described earlier in the thread. 

When the committee met and discussed this issue, we just all agreed to review the G2SS and make sure having all the girls in one yurt wouldn't be forbidden. 

7 hours ago, MattR said:

I agree. Also, you know these girls, do you expect any problems? Do they work well together? Or are they cliquish? If there is just one older girl that looks out for the younger scouts then nothing more than a quick discussion with all the scouts about looking out for and being helpful to each other is all that's needed. Have fun.

This is a great group of girls. I don't anticipate problems. 

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

There was a faq or a Brian on Scouting asking about adirondack trail shelters being accommodations and not using the tent rule. I would consider a yurt being more cabin like than an adirondack. 

I feel quite comfortable calling a yurt an "accommodation" rather than a tent. What I wasn't quite clear on was whether the 2 year rule also applied to tents. I was leaning towards "no" because it doesn't mention the 2 year rule in that section, but felt an argument could be made that since it doesn't specifically say it does NOT apply, and only addresses the mixed gender or adults sharing with youth issues, that it was supposed to be assumed that the 2 year rule still applies. 

It sounds like I'm definitely not alone in leaning towards "it doesn't apply." Of course common sense will still need to be taken into consideration for individual outings, but in this one I feel (as long as we're not breaking any rules) common sense tells me we're fine. 

8 hours ago, elitts said:

I di put forward an interpretation of that rule that says "An 11 year old can tent with a 14 year old because their ages are only 2 integers apart", but I didn't get much buy-in. 

So instead I've had to content myself with insisting that if they'd meant "24 months apart" they would have said so.  Which matters because when the rule first came out I had people arguing that we needed to start bringing the roster on camp-outs to make sure we didn't have a kid born in May 2004 tenting with a kid born Oct. 2006 even though their ages were still 14 and 12.

We discussed this at our committee meeting and we decided to use a CYA approach and assume they meant 24 months. This also makes it simpler because you won't have kids who are eligible or not eligible to tent together at different times based on whether they've had their birthday yet this year or not. 

Right. That was a case where we had one Scout who, while the same age as the others, was MUCH larger, and he had a long history of major behavioral problems. We couldn't see any sign that his parents were acknowledging or addressing those problems. He'd been in cub scouts with my oldest, and the incident occurred at their first Campboree shortly after crossing over. 

I think all the kids in my child's patrol were traumatized by the incident. They all did single-person tent camping from there until the end of their Scouting days (which for several of them was 7 more years). 

I've seen an abusive situation happen in a large tent full of same-age (11 year old) Scouts, but then again, we were able to quickly put a stop to it and the offender was immediately sent home from the event and then barred from Scouting. That might have been more challenging in a 2-person tent where it was one kid's word against the other's. 

I feel quite comfortable with our girls sharing a yurt. I just wanted an outside pair of eyes on the G2SS rules to make sure I wasn't conveniently interpreting it to suit my unit's situation.  

Stringing a hammock outside (without rain and wind protection) would not be an option for a February campout on the Oregon coast, but it's definitely something to keep in mind for other outings. 

Our young ladies have decided to reserve 2 yurts at a state campground for a "cabin camping" weekend next month. Each yurt holds 8 people. The intention is to have the youth in one yurt and the adults in the other (we only have 8 youth planning to go; it's a new, small female unit). 

How would you interpret this rule to apply here? 

Quote

Separate accommodations for adult males and females and youth males and females are required.

Tenting

• Separate tenting arrangements must be provided for male and female adults as well as for male and female youth.
• Youth sharing tents must be no more than two years apart in age.
• In Cub Scouting, parents and guardians may share a tent with their family.
• In all other programs, youth and adults tent separately. (Youth Protection and Barriers to Abuse FAQs)
• Spouses may share tents.

Lodging/Cabin Accommodations

Whenever possible, separate cabins or lodging should be provided for male and female adults as well as for male and female youth. Where separate accommodations cannot be provided due to group size or limited availability, modifications may be made. Where completely separate accommodations are not available, additional supervision is required. (Youth Protection and Barriers to Abuse FAQs)

• If adults and youth of the same gender occupy single-room accommodations, there must be a minimum of two adults and four youth, with all adults being Youth Protection trained.
• Physical separation by other means, including temporary barriers or space, should be used only when no other arrangements are possible.
• These modifications are limited to single-gender accommodations.

 

We'll need to get creative for the male and female adult issue (probably involving the addition of an RV or something, and one male leader has offered to just sleep alone in his truck), so I'm confident we'll find a way to handle that. But I am not entirely sure how to deal with the 2-year thing for the youth yurt. Do we follow a tent rule because no specific exception is made for lodging, or does that rule not apply because it's not mentioned for lodging? The only thing I can think of to get around it is to have our 2 or 3 oldest Scouts pitch a tent outside the yurt or something. Our Scouts are all fairly closely clustered from 11-13 years old, but we have at least one who hasn't turned 11 yet (recent crossover), and a couple of the 13 year olds are getting pretty close to 14. 

So... OK in a large group because of the limitations of the lodgings? Or pull out the 13 year olds and tell them they have to tent it?

So, news outlets are notoriously lazy about details. It didn't actually say that $1200 cash was donated to the senior center. It vaguely "went to" the senior center.

If the Scouts in the unit decided to spend $1200 on an event that they made possible for the Senior Center, I don't see a single issue for that. That's not raising money for another organization, that's using money they've raised for their unit to do a good turn for a neighbor. I don't think the distinction between those two things is all that blurry (maybe it can be sometimes). 

We don't really know exactly what happened. Sure, the article makes it sound like donated money, but I don't see a direct quote from anybody stating it was donated money. Just that it was used for the benefit of the seniors. I've read too many news articles about issues I had first-hand knowledge about to use anything written in a news article as evidence of wrongdoing. 

Ah, I didn't realize there wasn't one for Secretary. Troop Committee would work.

oh yeah, and a red numeral 2 (actually two of them)  or a 20  but I already have a few 0s  

I have a zillion random patches I can trade. I’ll post a photo if anybody has the above patches laying around they might want to trade me. 
 

I can walk into the Scout Shop and buy these for a few bucks each  of course, but A Scout is Thrifty so I figure I should ask here first. 

Our Council will waive the 5 Scout requirement if there is a plan in place to promote growth. 

Our Girl Troop started with 3 in July, and we're up to 7 now including the Scout we just accepted at Crossover last night, plus there's another girl that's almost done with her AOL that we know is committed to joining us shortly, and we are having a Webelos Night this week and will have a sign-up table for the 5th grade girls. 

Our Pack had all its recharter paperwork ready with 4 Scouts, our Cubmaster attended a meeting to get recruiting ideas we were getting ready to implement, and everything was going to be approved when our COR stepped down at the last minute (or maybe not at the last minute but they didn't inform us until a few weeks ago) and the CO declined to replace her so *poof* our Pack dissolved in a puff of steam. One of the 4 Scouts finished her AOL and crossed over ahead of schedule (see above) and the other 3 are joining other local packs. 

I think the "is there a plan in place to grow" is a reasonable question to answer when making exceptions to the 5 Scout rule. 

We usually start with a round of "Sorry I'm late," and "Do you know if so-and-so is coming?" We usually meet after hours in a truck stop type restaurant owned by our CC; occasionally if we're not in too much of a hurry she'll take orders and make everyone a burger or something. 

Every once in a while, if a financial or policy change decision is made, someone reminds the rest of us that someone should make a motion and we should officially vote on it. 

That's pretty much it. Our committee meetings are very informal.