littlek

Not sure if this post belongs here or elsewhere.....I am the Day camp Director For a medium size day camp. This issue rises every year. I and the other directors are told by the head of day camp visitation teams that 'only range trained persons are allowed on the range'. No other adults (except for Tiger cub partners) are to be on range. It is stated in the shooting sports handbook that the 'range officer must be range certified' and then talks about 'adult helpers' and doesn't mention for them to be certified. In the 'Operational Accreditation' handbook that they use to score camp it states:

BB-gun shooting (no pellet guns) is

conducted by a qualified on-site

range officer, at least 18 years of

age. Additional adult supervision

and guidance are provided, and

minimum state requirements are

met. All BB-gun range officers

have successfully completed the

BB-gun Safety and Training program

from a qualified instructor,

who is a valid instructor as outlined

in Shooting Sports for Cub

Scouting, No. 13-550.

The person that trains our range officers runs the council events and always has parents/adults involved in the process. His theory, as well as ours, is that he does the 'teaching' to the boys and the other adults provide another layer of safety overseeing the boys. One other side note....the accreditation officer works very closely with national and feels that she is right, no matter what the rules say. Great lady...just need to solve this once and for all.

My final word...it's all about safety and the more eyes on that goal, the better! Comments?

Not sure if this post belongs here or elsewhere.....I am the Day camp Director For a medium size day camp. This issue rises every year. I and the other directors are told by the head of day camp visitation teams that 'only range trained persons are allowed on the range'. No other adults (except for Tiger cub partners) are to be on range. It is stated in the shooting sports handbook that the 'range officer must be range certified' and then talks about 'adult helpers' and doesn't mention for them to be certified. In the 'Operational Accreditation' handbook that they use to score camp it states:

BB-gun shooting (no pellet guns) is

conducted by a qualified on-site

range officer, at least 18 years of

age. Additional adult supervision

and guidance are provided, and

minimum state requirements are

met. All BB-gun range officers

have successfully completed the

BB-gun Safety and Training program

from a qualified instructor,

who is a valid instructor as outlined

in Shooting Sports for Cub

Scouting, No. 13-550.

The person that trains our range officers runs the council events and always has parents/adults involved in the process. His theory, as well as ours, is that he does the 'teaching' to the boys and the other adults provide another layer of safety overseeing the boys. One other side note....the accreditation officer works very closely with national and feels that she is right, no matter what the rules say. Great lady...just need to solve this once and for all.

My final word...it's all about safety and the more eyes on that goal, the better! Comments?

I would like to get your opinion on Cubmaster tenure.

In Troops it is usually well received and common to have a Scoutmaster for 10, 15, even 20 years. I have been sharing my thoughts that packs could have the same type of tenure, but some have expressed 'concern' that it would not be a good situation for the pack to have a single Cubmaster for that long.

The argument doesn't seem to center around the fact that most parents leave the pack when their boys do, but a fear of the Cubmaster setting up 'fiefdom'.

My argument is that longevity brings stability, IF a strong and active committee is present, and any intelligent Cubmaster desires this.

I have three sons, a bear, a 5 year old, and an 11 month old. I will be in cubs for at least another 10 years. Do I do a disservice to the pack by remaining as the Cubmaster for these 10 years (with committee and CO approval of course)? Do I take away someone else's opportunity to lead their son's pack?

Any comments?

k

kittle,

If you are looking for something on the web try

www.scouttrack.com

There is a yearly fee for using it, but it is pretty nice package.

k

It's me,

I think that your response was right on target. You let them know they will be missed, allowed boy to return with grace, and ended it gracefully. If he gets his school work under control I hope he returns. I know that if this was my son I would feel better about you and the den. It could not have been an easy decision to stop scouting, you validated their concerns and gave them the opportunity to come back!!

Now.....on with your year!!

k

jw_elder77

The leader that designed this pole will put it on our website within a week. You should be able to download it if you want. It cost him around $50 mostly for the rope, and weighs a lot less than a wooden pole.If you find some modifications work better please let us know so we can update ours as well. I'll contact you as soon as we get it up on site. Good Luck!

k

Is this similar to what you are looking for?

http://sstamm.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2534_1024.ts315547210000.jpg

k

We are planning to utilize show and deliver this year and plan on having 2 adults with 4 scouts per vehicle.

Question: Is a tour permit needed for this type of event?

k

jkhny.....I think your original intent has been lost on popcorn vs. cookies, BSA vs GSA (GSUSA), 'my' facts vs. 'your' facts. I have lost a lot of respect for some of the senior members over their wailing on these trivial matters. Popcorn is good, cookies are good, BSA & GSUSA both have good but different programs, 'facts' (opinions) are like rear-ends everyone has one and they all stink except mine!

I have felt the same fustration as you. The council in my area is adequate. There are a lot of areas that can use improvement. However, I am not at this time in a capacity that can adequatley affect change; so I watch and learn what is going on. I have asked questions of our district FOS chair as to what my money would be used for..."district stuff like training" was the answer.

Some questions I had, if training is paid for the FOS why are we charged $10 to be trained for a volunteer position?

Answer: 'we have to pay for materials, meeting site, snacks, etc.'

I have been involved in training and know that instructors are volunteers, materials (copies) are not that expensive, meeting site is usually donated, and the snacks are cheap.

After asking these and some other serious, well thought out questions I could tell I was heading where no one should be or wanted to be going. Kinda like asking Masons about their secret stuff.(now I'll have the mason scouters on me)

I would like to know where my money goes. I do not contribute money to organizations that cannot/will not share that info with me. I am very selective in my donations. I also do not donate to FOS for that reason. I make my contributions directly to my pack....I at least know where that money is being used!

Now, all that being said, I believe the soul of scouting is lost much above the unit level. I started a pack not to become part of my district or council, but to deliver to the boys the ideals of scouting....the way LBP meant it.

Personally I agree that as scouters both volunteer and professional we should be open and held to a higher sandard than others. We should all strive to live and even attain the basic tenets of the scout law. We should all strive to 'Do My Best'. I also know that as human beings that we will fail in that. I hope, for the most part, unintentionally but know that some will choose to make a mockery of what we stand for as a brotherhood of scouters from within our ranks. I cannot control them but can only deliver the best possible program to MY boys. I have chosen to remain 'ignorant' to the problems I see and focus instead on the boys.

IMHO, scoutings future hope lies in teaching its future leaders something its current ones may have failed to grasp...that we mean all that stuff about being honest, loyal, thrifty, etc.

k

At the comittee meeting we looked at other options such as the ones suggested here. The idea of theme related grub really took off! For September we kind of settled on the idea to have a cowboy bean 'snack' (a cup of beans and cornbread made in a dutch oven)as a way to end the day. A time of food & fellowship. Any other suggestions for Western snacks that are quick and easy?

k

Seattle Pioneer- Were you burdened with taking the course or did you willingly attend? Reading into your other posts in many topics I would think you willingly went. And that is the true leader spirit. Wanting more for the pack means sometimes we must be burdened. Being a pack leader by definition is burdensome, but we do it out of love for the program and/or the boys.

As far as the requirements, I feel the CM knot is fairly light on requirements. Take some training, hang around, run a decent program, and in two years here ya go!. Therefore I would add it with no deletion of other requirements.

The other awards are much meatier in their requirements and this could be added as an option under performance or as a requirement under training and lighten the performance load (choose 3 instead of 5).

Maybe my expectations are to high. We have 7 leaders (committee and pack)that took BALOO/WLOT last fall. We only have 20 boys in our pack. Our leaders, in the three short years we have been a pack, have accumulated almost 300 total hours of training. Maybe we are freaks, but we highly prize the opportunity to attend training. Maybe that is setting the bar to high for future generations.

k

Good ideas.

CM Fred- I like the theme idea. Does your pack follow BSA themes or your own?

k

Scout Nut- thanks for the clarification on that matter. I guess I'm just a little over zealous on training. When I see 'recommended' I tend to think 'required'. Thanks.

Funny that it IS required for the WDL knot!?

I'll disagree that BALOO is intended for 'non-leaders' only. IMHO, and the syllabus of our council, the information abounds that it is a requirement for any person who wishes to plan & lead an overnight cub scout campout. This usually by necessity includes, but is not limited to, the CM, ACM's, & maybe DL's. I realize only one person who is present must be BALOO trained. That is usually a pack leader by definition.

If it is required for the WL knot, should it not also be required of at least the CM? Or do they consider that a part of the requirement of a weblos den is camping and therefore a WL must be trained? Conversely, that a pack has no requirement for camping and therefore its' leaders are exempt from the training requirement.

IMO if a CM is to lead by example he must have at least the same amount of training as his other leaders. This can only serve to allow him/her to be a much more effective leader. We are not just leading boys.

I appreciate the intricacies of allowing a pack to change a national award, but does the pack have the right to require that as a pack leader certain expectations (training) must be met to work with its boys?

k

We have in the past met at 6 pm on Tuesdays. That was to let the kids get home early enough to do school night stuff. We are chartered by a small private school with only students in the pack. Several families live @ 20-30 minutes away.

We will be meeting on Friday this year so a later start time may not be as bad, say around 7pm. I like the snack idea. Do you do them before or after pack meeting?

k

Welcome Jon,

Kick back and listen to the wise ones speak(not me!).

Hey Semper watch out for the poisin ivy! Heck of a place to itch!!

k

Welcome!

Grab some coffee and dig into the cobbler! The fire is as good here as it is at CBT!!

k

I applaud your efforts to maintain confidentiality in this matter, and your desire to not drive this kid out on a rail, but to encourage a change of behavior.

As a surgical technician in a level 1 trauma center, I see to often the effects of a 'harmless drink'. Education can help deter drinking, but only a true desire to live the law (scout and state) will change this young mans desire for alcohol.

Perhaps he could plan the troop's anti-substance abuse campaign, complete with speakers, press releases, steps to involve other scouts, etc. Use it to reach out to the schools in his comunity as a sign of good faith. Would that not make a great Eagle Project?

IMHO, those who want to wear the Eagle must be held to a higher standard. Otherwise, they are just wearing a funny looking bird on their shirt!

k

Does anyone have any feelings on adding pack requirements to the adult leadership knots?

I feel very strongly that a CC, CM, ACM, WL, and DL (any others?) should commit to BALOO/WLOT training. The program helps build better leaders by supplying skills and confidence to plan an overnighter. It builds better dens by allowing them to camp together (following approved protocol), better packs by adding more knowledgeable leaders to the mix. Im sure most would agree a better-trained leader is a better leader.

However, Im just curious as to appropriateness of this adding of requirements.

Any comments?

k

Getting others to attend with you is very wise. If something were to happen to your only BALOO trained person the trip would be done. No trained person, no camp. Also allows for others to be on same page for planning event and for safety 'cops'.

I am very fortunate that as a new CM, there are 7 BALOO or WLOT trained people in our pack of 20 boys. Talk about easy planning camping trips!! We are considering asking each den leader to take it as part of their commitment to the pack. I too feel it should be part of the requirements for knots. Not just CM though. Not our decision though, or is it? (new thread)

If you have webelos leaders they can take Webelos Outdoor Leader Training (WLOT). It is required for any overnighters with their den. Our council offers both on the same day running concurrently.

It is a great time of fellowship and learning. Have fun!!

k

Hello All! It's getting close to race time!!!!

A quick question though.

We have a committee member who has suggested that at pack meetings we have a dinner. Pizza, hot dogs, occasional potluck, etc.

Thought being that it will help families with getting kids fed. It also may help get more to show up for the meeting.

My concern as the CM is that it will add confusion to the meeting. Later starting times due to slow eaters, parents wanting to clean-up instead of watching, etc...

Does anyone have experience with this idea, good or bad?

k

Welcome!

I am also new cubmaster for a pack started 2 years ago. Our first year we wanted everyone to wear their uniform, to build pride and respect for uniform. This year we added a 'class B' uniform for outdoor activities (hiking, camping, and working on service projects).

msnowman is right, if they want to wear the uniforms,let them. You could encourage them even though they would be more comfortable in t-shirts. There is something about a boy in his uniform.

I guess it all depends on comfort concerns and distance of hike. The shirts will hold up fine.

Good luck!

k

Seed

It is my understanding that the CC and CM as well as other leaders are always on the lookout and can suggest potential leaders. The CM can recommend these people to CC who then can make recommendation to COR before actual recruitment occurs. If CO agrees with choice recruitment can occur. If an application is already in hand, I understand it to be the pack committees responsibility to check references listed (any confirmation from others?).

Bottom line: CC should want CM input, but final say lies in the hands of CO. This should only be a problem if there is a problem with candidate. If not, then all is well. Hope this helps.

k

I figured out G2SS about an hour after I posted. Thanks!

Lynda, that is where we are at in our discussion with him. No train = no boy contact.

I prefer no training = no leadership position. We have been able to keep him from engaging in the activities that HE deems safe. We are not sure if there have been things that have not been noticed and stopped.

Does BSA provide any type of liability insurance to CO? Does it cover COR, CC, CM or other pack leaders? Maybe I need to spin this thread off?

Thanks for your input on this matter.

The COR, CC, and I agree that his days as a leader working directly with the boys are limited unless we see some clear signs of change. He will be reminded of the opportunity to take training and be on some sort of probation and/or offered a committee position, as Bob White suggested. He probably would not accept a committee position and it will be tough to get him trained. My concern is with him removing his son out of spite. It is not fair to the boy, but we must have some safety and order for the other kids.

Im going to show my ignorance, (dont look ;-}), what is the G2SS that you refer to Bob?

Thanks k