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Posts posted by ASM915

  1. Ms Summer,

    This may be overkill, but have your son add a response deadline for the SM in the email, let's say three days. Unfortunately your son's SM has already pulled the delay tactic of "I didn't get that email" and might try it again.


    If the SM does not respond by the third day, have a typed letter of the email ready, and have it sent Certified Mail to both the SM and the Committee Chair. Pay for the notification of delivery, so your son knows when it was handed to the SM & CC, and the SM & CC had to sign for it.


    Have your son send the email today, April 2nd with the deadline of 2:00 PM on April 5th. At 3:00PM, be at the post office and send the letter out Certified Mail. Ask the clerk when the expected delivery day is, and what the turn around time is on the notification.


    This way, the SM & CC has no choice but to except the delivered letters. If they refuse to except the letters, you and your son will at least have documentation of attempted delivery, and refusal to except. It will help you son's appeal process. CYA and all the bases.


    Also, today call the Council office. Ask to talk with the Field Director (FD). The FD is the boss over the District Exec's. Ask the FD who your District Exec. is. and for the contact information. If for some reason your District is between DEs, the FD will be the acting DE.


    Tell your son good luck, and kill them with kindness.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

  2. Has anyone very held an election for more then one troop at the same time and location?


    We have several troops that are in very close proximity to each other, some with meeting places across the street from each other, and that meet on the same night. With the problem of finding enough members willing to be on election teams, and having enough Scouters to get them to all the different locations on different nights.


    I was toying with the idea of running multiple unit elections on the same night at one location with a smaller team. This way the scouts aren't tied up one or two extra nights a week for two months trying to get all the elections in. Everyone could gather to watch the promo DVD's, then break into their own troops to hold their elections.


    Someone suggested made trying to do this a Spring Camporee.


    I'm open to suggestions and ideas.



  3. Eagle Foot,

    Just pick up an application and sign up as a District at large. Then start showing up at their RT's. Soon or later, someones interest will be peeked.


    SWMBO you never know from one day to the next whether Scoting is the evil competion. but ever so slowly, SHE IS BEING ASSIMULATED!!!!

    The CCS Cchair is slowly drawing her in on special projects. And her best freind, who is Native, and does cultural outreach programs does a lot of her programing around Scouting. SWMBO came for a scheduled done hour meeting with her friend and one of my fellow Lodge advisors about putting on a mini-Powwow at our August OX Roast. One became three hours, and she was having just as much fun carrying on as the other three of us. Plus we dragged her along for a week in DC back in April. She whines, but she can't stop talking about how much fun it is with the boys.



  4. Eagle Foot,

    Just pick up an application and sign up as a District at large. Then start showing up at their RT's. Soon or later, someones interest will be peeked.


    SWMBO you never know from one day to the next whether Scoting is the evil competion. but ever so slowly, SHE IS BEING ASSIMULATED!!!!

    The CCS Cchair is slowly drawing her in on special projects. And her best freind, who is Nativ, and does cultural outreach programs does a lot of her programing around Scouting. SWMBO came for a scheduled done hour meeting with her friend and one of my fellow Lodge advisors about putting on a mini-Powwow at our August OX Roast. One became three hours, and she was having just as much fun carrying on as the other three of us. Plus we dragged her along for a week in DC back in April. She whines, but she can't stop talking about how much fun it is with the boys.



  5. And ohhhh that one hour a week for therapy. Oops, I mean on Monday night, for the troop meeting,

    one hour one Thursday from Sept. to Feb. for the Rel. Emb. program,

    One hour the second Fri. Morning for R&M

    One hour the second Wed. for RT

    One hour on the third Thur. for LEC

    ONe hour quarterly for the DCCS


    I tell my wife at least I'm not falling off a a barstool somewhere trying to hit one someone. And everything else I'm involved with outside of scouting, has some crazy tie back into scouting.


    It's only a dream. It's only a dream. It's only a dream. AAARGGHHH

  6. scoutldr,

    The EDBOR was mainly going to make sure that the OA Rep was actually attending Chapter meetings if he was trying to use the position for POR. But I like the Obligation question, and will have to remember and try that sometime.



    I feel that if the Scouts are willing to be invovled and make an effort to support the Lodge, Vigil is possible, but will take time. It's strange how National will change election criteria to boost the numbers for Ordeal, but then still keep quotas on how many Vigils a Lodge is allowed to except each year based on Lodge membership. The committed members will be nominated first, not because of a clique.



    You nailed one problem right on the head, complacency. But then again, the troop may nominate an adult, but it is suppose to be the Lodge that decides if that adult has a skillset that the Lodge needs and can use.



    I would have your Lodge think long and hard before they switch to twice a year. Twice a year is nice when it comes to knocking off some larger labor intensive projects by concentrating all the candidates into two Ordeals.


    The problem I see with twice a year Ordeals is that when the scouts can't make the Fall Ordeal because of a sports commitment, and has to wait for Spring Ordeal, by the time 8 months rolls around, the desire to join has wained, or they all of a sudden find themselves tied into another school event, and loosing out on Ordeal again, and having to be reelected.


    With running the Ordeal at summer camp, you still have them baited. They really don't have the chance to change their minds. Usually their Saturday was already clear of any other activities since they were just returning from summer camp.


    My old Lodge held Pre-Ordeal at an isolated area of our reservation that was seperated from the main two camps by a lake. The PO was run at the same time the Camp Honors campfire was being held on the far side of camp. The scouts at Ordeal automatically received their Camp Honors patch. This kept the rest of the scouts from thinking of taking a night hike and trying to raid the OA ceremony. Our candidates were divided up into two groups on Saturday morning. One group stayed at Camp Butler where the PO was held and worked in the morning. The other group hiked it over to the other camp, Manatoc, and worked in the late morning and afternoon, usually after the rest of the campers had pretty much left. Around mid afternoon, the first group would hoof it over to Manatoc in time for showers and dinner. After dinner, the main ceremony was held. The only drawback other then having smaller work groups was someone had to pick up the new Ordeal on Saturday evening. Luckily, the Council did not cover a large geographical area.


    The Council and Lodge that I'm involved in now, has a conflict on Friday nights that causes them to have to run two Ordeals, Spring and Fall. The Camp Honors programs is one of the oldest running honors programs in the country, dating back to around 1925, runs every Friday night, and takes 250-300 people to pull it off. It is unbeleavable to me that the Honors program can get that kind of commitment on a Friday night, from that many people, to do what they do, and OA is luck to have a 50-75 adults and youth willing to run an Ordeal.

  7. gdw,

    Knowing you and knowing about some of your issues from some of the other threads, I think I know and understand about the accommodation your talking about. We both know the Lodge will take care of it, and the other candidates will probably never know. Go for it. I know you would be a great asset.


    Being inducted back in the days of PI, I was tapped out back in the early 70's, and very involved. Yes, I think that OA has lost some of it's zing it had back then. It was hard to get elected, and the scouts that went through with it, were the ones that wanted to be there. The commitment to the Order by those elcted into it was strong. It was the Honor Society of Scouting.


    When I rejoined Scouts about 7 years back with my sons, I thought it was great, the number of Scouts be allowed to be nominated for Ordeal. Now I think that is has become watered down, to achieve numbers. Back in the 70's, it was an honor. Now it appears as others have stated, in most cases, it's to wear the patch.


    Yes, I do think a part of the problem is the maturity level of the younger scouts. But I see the older Scouts who have the time, blowing OA off after Ordeal too. Some of it is other activities, but some of it is laziness. With older scouts, who place OA as second fiddle to another activity, or are just to lazy to want to do anything, what do you think is going to happen to CHapters when the Chapter Chief is only 13? Even with a good advisor, the 13 y/o is rarely going to have the maturity and mentality to handle the position. I have one 18 y/o SPN who is at the Chapter meetings all the time VC of Activities), and the rest are 13 and under. Sort of hard to make an appearance to camporee's when the younger ones are needed for their troops.


    Some of it is a bad image.


    As for the bad image, at least at our Lodge is:

    - Our two Ordeals are held before and after summer camp. Not visible to other Scouts. Same for our two fellowships, unless there are units camping the same weekend. This year, the Lodge is moving the Fall Fellowship to the same weekend as our fall camp honors Good Turn Weekend, so the units see the Lodge there along side the units giving service, and hopefully having fun. The COuncil is also teaming up with the County Parks for a massive trail cleanup, using the OA as the team leads for the different projects for the troops and packs.


    - "It's clichy (sorry, probably misspelled). Scouts feel left out". This from a ASM who is Vigil. Now I really do not remember that being an issue back in my days. Today, I can see that perception. That perception may be true in a few circumstances. I think the real problem stems from the lack of participation after Ordeal, plus communication. Then when a member does show up on rare occassion to a Chapter meeting, he feels out of place, because the few that do consistently attend are on the same wavelength with each other,

    like telepathy.


    - "All they do is make you work". Grunge work. A stated in another thread, the Lodges have to make the Ordeal service a project that the candidates will remember as something that they really contributed to, not setting up and tearing down summer camp.


    There has to be better communications to everyone. But the how many Scoutmasters are going to listen to a 13 or 14 y/o, when they have a hard time listening to a 17 y/o. I see a lot of our SM's take the information handed out at RT with a grain of salt, the blow it off, never really passing it on at their meetings. Nor do they push their OA Rep's to attend the Chapter meetings. Our District just informed the SM's, that attendance is being taken, and an EC up for DEBOR with OA Rep listed as POR had better be on the list, or the EBOR will bounce the application.


    If the SM's would follow Skeptic's advice and

    -really screen the elegible candidates before elctions,

    -really explain what OA is all about, including the maturity and mentality level needed to truely function in the organization,

    -and counsel the younger ones that waiting a year or two is not a bad thing and may be more beneficial for everyone involved, and would be more fun and meaningful for them in the long run,


    then I can see OA once again gaining the respect it deservers and being the quality organization that Scouts can't wait to be elected into.


    gdw, sorry for the tirade. It wasn't meant to be a hijack. It's just something that I'm passionate about. I hope that some of my opinions may answer some of your questions.

  8. Pack,

    What was that poor priest's name? You know, the one who was excommunicated because of his thesis on evolution, religion, and man being created when God finally gave him a soul. If I remember correctly, he he was educated as a scientist, couldn't turn his back on what was proven by science, and tried to reconcile the two.

    God created everything. As evolution took place, God finally said thatI would like one of my beasts to be in my image. When god finally saw a beast that He liked in His image,He gave it a soul, and thus the creation of man as we know him.


    Now I know that is extremely oversimplified, but that was the core of his thesis.


    He was excommunicated by the Church. Some time after his death, the Church took another look at the thesis, and decided that maybe his thought processes may not have been so far fetched. Now they are teaching his philosophy in the Catholic institutions.

  9. This weekend, I had an interesting conversation with a dear friend of mine, a Sister that I work with. I asked why she was still at the hospital at dinner time. She was working on a paper. I do not remember what the paper was about, but it immediately made me think of this thread.


    I pulled up a chair as I stated I'm going to burn in you know where, drawing laughter from her and the other two women with her. I leaned over and let her in on some of our conversations here. I then asked if she had heard about the Brazilian case, and explained what was happening. She became very quite and solemn for quite a while. I apologized for ruining her evening. She stated that she was just thinking over the situation, and was not upset.


    She felt that in this terrible situation, the death of two innocents and the saving of one innocent, over the death of all three innocents, should be the choice, and that she would have to go with the abortion, even though it was against Church doctrine.


    OGE, no need to apologize. All religions have their cross to bear, maybe us Catholics a little more then others. Other then Vatican II, it has been about 500 years since the Church really had to look at some of it's believes, and made changes to doctrine, (the Earth is not flat, and is not the center of the Universe, and it is not sacrilege to believe so). Maybe it is time again, with all the medical advances that God has allowed man to discover, that the Church again take a close look at it's views on certain items, and make minor appropriate changes to safeguard the well being of it's parishioners, as well as itself from people leaving the Church do to some,I hate to say it, antiquated thought processes.

  10. The mother and doctors were excommunicated. The step-father of coarse was not.


    Scout, depending on how your priest answers the question, then ask him, does the mother and doctors still get excommunicated if they did not go through with an abortion, killing the girl instead, knowing that she would not survive the pregnancy? Also ask if the perp should be excommunicated, and whether he feels God will reconcile with mom and the doc's when they arrive?


    I do agree, that on the very rare occassion, that miracles do happen, but as stated they are rare. Been there, and involved in a few.


    One is was placed on God Tube last fall by the mother. We had a delivery where the placenta was ruptured unbeknownst to anyone, plus meconium. The infant was delivered pulseless. We worked over 20 minutes, and were going to stop after one more minute, when we started finding a pulse. We figured there would be severe neurological damage if the infant survived. On returning to our department at the end of the shift (the delivery was during the last hour of my shift), someone asked if the Code Pink was at the delivery of a friend of mine who worked at the hospital with me. I was at her bedside, talking to her telling her to reach in the isolette and touch her daughter before we took her daughter to NICU, never realizing who the mother was. The infant survived, and has been cleared of any complications from the disastrous delivery we had, and is perfectly fine. Check it out.


    Scout, now I have a ten year old niece who is lucky to weigh 60 or 70 lbs if she's lucky. Sorry there is know way she would ever be able to carry twins to term. As I stated in a earlier post about the flood victim on the roof who keeps sending the boats away because God will save him. When he meets God, he asks why God didn't save him. God replies "I sent the boats. You sent them away!"

  11. The Scout,

    Last month I dragged you through the weed, this month it's the coals.

    Being the good Catholics we are, and knowing church doctrine, how would you respond to this unfortunate but true situation I heard about today.


    Scenario: A nine year old girl is sexually abused and raped by her step-father. She ends up pregnant with twins. The twins will not survive to gestation, nor will the nine year old if she tries to carry them to term. The doctors advice that without the abortion, she will die. The doctors are Catholic, as is the family. As a Catholic, what do you do, let her die, or be excommunicated for performing/having the abortion to save her life?



  12. Gern has a valid point about the parasite host relationship.


    Then there was the ideology tossed out there a few years back, that Islam was preaching to procreate. Have as many children as possible. Then as the Judeo-Christian religions' population dropped off, or remained at a constant, Islam would become the dominate religion, then being able to flex their will on the rest of the world. This is not my theory, but it has some validity.


    Last fall, my wife and her best friend went to Detroit to see the friend's daughter. The three of them took the daughters two girls swimming at a local pool. All their swim wear was conservative. It didn't matter to the men, who were Muslim, at the pool. They were not happy that the women and girls were there in the pool. Of coarse, my wife, half Italian, half Native, and the friend's family being Native, just did their thing anyway, and ignored the looks and comments.

  13. I read the other day that supposedly the attorney generals office is looking into the physician and clinic involved with implanting the embryos. If it goes to trial, and the physician and clinic are found guilty, I feel the punishment should be providing for and covering the expenses for the octuplets until they reach 18. Maybe if we make the accomplishes also responsible for their actions, maybe they will reconsider trying something asinine like this in the future.


    Then we could always consult Swift's "A Modest Proposal" on how to handle this situation.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

  14. What a Mooooooooooooooving story. Udderly ridiculous.


    Here PETA, PETA, PETA.


    Don't let Packsaddle anywhere near the cows. He'll have them disected in a matter of minutes.


    Hey Pack, your psychology Prof should have asked the university for some steers for his experiments. Lobster tastes good, but the couple of whole beefs will give you a lot of steaks and burgers.

  15. OGE,

    "The inevitable reality is that life ends in death".

    Yep, from the time we are born, we're start on the road to dying.


    Ed, the Scout is from Buffalo, and now hiding from all the snow in Missouri. By the way, how old are you since you brought it up?



    But would she. If she was informed up front that the treatment would kill the fetus, nontreatment would kill both of them, and to save her, she would need an abortion, I guess she is stuck in the moral dilemma that no matter how she proceeds, she will be killing her unborn baby. Guilty in all three instances. Which carries more guilt, having the radiation knowing the outcome, or the selective abortion? Or do they carry the same level of guilt?



    New lashing project. Just lash them legs together until married. But then we'ld be accused of teaching bondage. Never mind.

    (This message has been edited by ASM915)

  16. WOW!!

    Work a couple of off shifts, don't post for a couple of days, a look what I miss.


    DanK, My heart goes out to you and your family. Such decisions should never have to be made.


    Scout, I thought that you were raised in Buffalo, one of the URR stops on the way to Canada, not the deep south 60 years ago. My young friend, I understand that you are only using the slavery thing to drive home a point, but tread lightly, the ice is very thin, and starting to crack, just like Erie in the spring. Just think of the reaction I would get if I used the Holocaust, Hitler and the Jews.


    Scout, Boyce & Ed, if the woman chooses to bring the pregnancy to term, and decides to have radiation and chemo during the pregnancy, especially the first trimester, then the fetus dies in utero because of the decision, does she stand responsible for the demise of the fetus, therefore chargeable, or was it just God's will? Does she instead, choose to not be treated, knowing that she and the fetus will die before the pregnancy comes to term, or choose to unfortunately terminate this pregancy, since either of the other options will kill the fetus, get treated, hopefully beat the disease, and possibly bearing more children in the future, thus procreating as God intended? I would like to be a fly on the wall holding up the Pearly Gates to see how God would look at the last option. I bet he would be compassionate, and gladly except her, especially since she beared additional children, if that was his will.


    Just as was stated earlier, but worded a little differently, the mother arrives at the gates, and asks God why he didn't save her and or her child. God responds, "I gave you the doctors and the treatments to save you, you chose not to use them". I hope you realize this before you have to make such a heart wretching decision in your future Scout.

  17. OGE,

    My apologies. I though that the D&X was a tipo, C being next to X on the keyboard. Working in a Catholic facility for 25 years, I had never heard the term.


    And yes people, please do not mistake a D&C as an abortion. IT IS NOT.

  18. SCOUTING HAS IT'S REDEMPTION (tongue in cheek)!!!


    Just keep voting against your local school levy. After Tuesdays dismal school levy results, one northeastern public school system, North Royalton, a Cleveland suburb, is dropping all high school sports. They are the first public system in Ohio to take this step, and probably not the last. They already folded the spring sports programs, marching band and other EC's earlier this winter. It at least appears that they have their priorities straight, academics before sports. Bet there are a lot PO'ed parents and future superstars.


    If I were the SE of the Greater Cleveland Council, I would be having the DE that covers North Royalton, pounding down the doors of the local schools to start holding a spring recruiting drive, creating new CO's, and start new Crews and Varsity teams as fast as possible. What an opportunity to promote our programs. "We can/have stood the test of time, and we're not going anywhere".


    Then there was our levy. Hasn't been passed in the last 13+ years after the whopping 12.8 they pushed through the last time. We did pass the bond issue for state money to build two new school and close two old ones. We are recognized as having one of the worst budget problems in the Ohio. 14 teachers were cut after Nov.'s levy failed. Now they are going to cut more teachers, push the classes back up to 35+, threaten to cut busing, but not touch the sports (we're already pay to play), because we are always state contenders in three of the four biggies.


    Another local school was listed a planning to cut more academic programs and clubs, then maybe start looking at sports.


    The district next door stopped all busing back in November (never looked at the sports program) to use as blackmail to pass this levy. Theirs passed, and the buses were running yesterday.


    It is to bad that the BOE's place more emphazies on their sporting programs, and are willing to keep them around, while cutting teachers, busing academic relate EC's, instead of placing the teams on the choppingblock first, over academics. I'll have to ask my cousin (the AD of Springfield College in Mass.) her opinion on this whole scenario.



    National has instituted a new covert program. All Scouters, family and FOS are encouraged to vote down all school levies, then appear en mass at the next BOE meeting demanding that the sports programs be the first to go. This is in an effort to boost the membership of scouting. Once this program is successful, watch out band. (TIC)



    asm411, I'm surprised that you missed the article yesterday. I believe in directing the scouts to the MB's that are tied to their interests. My oldest one went from new scout at almost 15, to Eagle by 18. He realized how easy the MB's were if you used you school curriculum and sports/training programs and EC's to fulfill the requirements.



  19. Gern,

    An answer to your last question, probably Tom Edison. He was a closet psychopath, and the first to jump at the chance to throw the switch on Old Sparky. But because he wired it with DC not AC, he couldn't kill the guy, no matter how many times he throw the switch. True story.

  20. As Neil states in his last post, and I mentioned earlier, It can be gone with the blink of an eye.


    Our present SM played in the Minor Leagues, He was even called up to the Majors for a few with the Indians. While in a Minor League game, he caught his ankle in a drain great going for a fly ball. Tore up the leg, career gone. Unfortunately, he still places more emphasize on sports.

  21. Lisa,

    That would probably be a cheaper and safer procedure. Just the sight of seeing all these guys walking down the street looking like they just climbed off of Mr Ed would be a funny site indeed.


    Then again, girls/women wanting to emulate Ms Cali could always go to the sperm bank, and become another Ms Cali, no super stud involved.


    We could always bring back the good old chastity belt, and throw away the key. Monty Python, where are you when we need you?


    Lisa, I just like to think outside the box, and occassionally play devils advocate, just to see what peoples opinions are. I'm definitely toward the conservative side.


    OGE, yes it would be great if abstinance was a regularly accepted social norm today. It should be. Unfortunately with todays media, whether it be TV, music, movies, published material or the internet, and the people that they portray and idolize, and the message that they pander to our children, that teen sex and pregancy is OK, there is no need for monagamy, shack up with as many as you want, the government will help if your families don't is a major problem that will be hard to reverse. If we try to get a handle on the problem, by trying to regulate the media, we then have the ACLU crowd screaming we are violating consitutional rights. God forbid if we try to promote what is morally right

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