ASM915

Joni,

We're in the same boat. Our youngest son, originally diagnosed with Bipolar with ADHD tendencies was also diagnosed with Autistic Spectrum Disorder, poss. Asperger's. Luckily we haven't had to worry about upper body strength issues. We do have to worry about dehydration and overheating more rapidly then the normal Scout, due to the medications.

As for the Alpha Smarts, we're talking using a word processor for written assignments because of the fine motor skills issues and terrible penmanship, and of course he wants to be the Scribe.

Back in March or April, we turned in a letter, along with the requested documentation from the Psychiatrist and school psychologists to Council, asking for additional time to complete Eagle requirements due to the LD's, had Dan reregistered as disabled, and have been waiting. Three weeks ago, while at a committee meeting at Council, I asked the program director how the paperwork was going and if the Adv. Comm. had made a decision. He informed me about the 4 page green form, went and brought me one and asked that we fill it out and turn it back in. Of course it was for alternate merit badges. I asked if this was the appropriate form and was informed that it was the only form. This, 6 months after the original request was made. Needless to say, I wasn't real happy that no one at Council had bothered to inform us about this form over the last 6 months and we have waisted all this time.

I think National should make things easier by having one form just for requesting a variance in the time requirements, and the green one for Scouts that need to have alternative MB's, or have a combination form with both requests on it.

Good luck,

Eric

Several years ago, we took a canoe trip down the river that runs through our town. We were about a mile down river when we heard one of our boys (my 20 Y/O son and ASM, he was 11 then), start yelling "BLACK BEAR, BLACK BEAR!!!"

Now we live in northeast Ohio, suburban/ rural, lots of farmland. On very rare occasions, we may have a Pa. mother bring the cubs to Ohio to grow up. You know, a better neighborhood and such. Sorry Eamonn. But the closest we''ve ever had one come is about 30-40 miles east of here.

Now the river bank was somewhat heavily vegetated. As we come around the bend, sure enough, there''s this big black snout sticking out through the thick vegetation. All you could see was the snout. As he''s yelling "Black Bear", the snout let out the loudest and longest "MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" you ever heard. "BLACK ANGUS, BLACK ANGUS!!!" Needless to say, after 10 years he hasn''t lived it down yet and we all still have a good laugh over it.

Now this is the same kid , that one night while on the way to swim practice around 6:30PM (dusk out), Dave (then about the same age, maybe 10) starts yelling at my wife to turn the car around. He had spotted an Elk.

Now SWMBO actually listened to the kid, stops and backs the car up. She then angled the car across the road so the headlights would shine over into the field. Next thing I know, I''m receiving this excited phone call at the hospital telling me there''s an Elk down in the field at Erie and Butterbridge. Of coarse my reaction is "YEA, RIGHT. YOU ARE KIDDING?" They were dead serious.

That night around midnight, on my way home from the hospital, I made a detour to the intersection of all the interest. As I pull up to the side of the road with the headlights aimed out in the field, sure enough, there was the Elk, along with a few of his buddies, a Black Bear and a Big Horn Sheep. It turns out the contractor who owned the property decided to hone up on his archery skills, and had placed the life size targets around the back of his property at the far end of the field.

A few years later a farmer a mile down Erie did start raising some elk. Man, what a site. MAN, WHAT RACKS!!!

Then there was the year we had an all nighter at a barn fire. Same stretch of road. As it started to become light out, and we started winding down the pumps, all of a sudden we started hearing all this howling coming from behind us and to our left. Hear the farmer was raising wolves, several of them. What a shock. I wasn''t real happy for the wolves, all caged up and stuff.

You never know what you''ll find in your backyard.

Hope you all enjoy the read.

YIS

Eric

"If people think God is intersting,

the onus is on them to show that there is anything to talk about.

Otherwise they should just sut up about it."

Richard Dawkins, Evolutionary Biologist, Oxford Universty.

Pacsaddle, you should like that one.

Anyway, there''s a mew movie coming out in Feb. 2008,"EXPELLED" with Ben Stein, http//www.expelledthemovie.com/video/php that should cause some real intersting conversations here.

So everyone has 4-5 months to get their debate material together and their arguements formulated. More Ed and Merlyn fodder.

Ed, Ed, Ed,

You sly fox you.

So your okay with Allah and Gaia and the others, eh?

If memory serves me right, several months ago you were upset with me, insisting that you were totally against a nondenominational or interfaith prayer that only stated to GOD. You stated that it had to be the GOD of your denomination/faith and that a generic reference was not good enough. I didn''t realize you were Muslim and believed in Allah, or is it Earth-based Pagan and Gaia? Or does your faith change daily? LOL

Wingnut, does that mean we have to stop playing Stratego too? Darn!!

And others here, I''ve known of many cases where the student made it to the microphone, and went for the prayer. Public yes. Supported by the School Administration? Don''t think so. Never saw the superintendent behind the student with a gun to his/her head saying recite the prayer. In most cases, the student(s) get suspended and or have their certificate withheld. So is it really public prayer if the school had no idea it was coming?

It''s nice to be back.

Gonzo,

Heck with the flashlights. Just break out the old tiki torches. Oh, then the parents won''t have to worry about the ant mounds, just the fire. LOL

Eric

PS: Welcome to the forum Volker. Where are you located?

Lisa,

Been there. I agree with Dan and Beav. First thing that popped into my head was AS. My youngest attends a charter school for ADD/ADHD, Bipolar, Autistic Spectrum and AS kids. The AS kids can be all over the spectrum depending if there are other co-existing conditions which complicate matters.

About 7 years ago I was very involved in the schools outdoor program for a year. We had one AS in the 7th grade class. By the way the school was set up as a Pack/Troop ran during school. This lad was big, over 6 feet and probably a solid 275 lb's. He had trouble with the social cues, interacting with his classmates, and expressing himself quietly. One time while canoeing in the lake about 50 yards off shore, he became upset with his partner over something, decided he wasn't going to stay in the canoe. Over the side he went and swam to the beach fully dressed, with yours truly right beside him. He looked over at me with surprise and asked "What are you doing?" I told him I thought I would also go for a swim with him because it was hot out. We swam to the shore sat down and relaxed. He looked over and Said "Your crazy." My reply was I didn't jump first. We both sat there and chuckled.If handled right, we were able to work with him on handling his outbursts. Deep down he was a very loving lad and would give a hug.

So much for the story.

Lisa,

1) Set up a private meeting with mom. Just you and her, maybe over coffee, some afternoon when the kids are in school. Let her know that you see how hard things must be for her. Let her know that you like and care for her son, and you want to see him succeed in Scouting.

See if she'll open up to another female.

See if she'll let you in a little.

See if social services are involved, like KC John asked. If they are not involved, maybe it is because she doesn't know the process and needs direction. RESPITE could help give her a break on the weekends.

Once she realizes that she has a friend, maybe she won't be so defensive, and may be open to suggestions.

Maybe you can find put what kind of diagnosis the lad has.

Maybe she will be willing to share any techniques she may have to de-escalate situations.

2) Follow Beav's advice. See if Big Brothers has a Scouter in their ranks that may have AS experience and would be willing to work with this lad, both in and out of Scouting.

This person ends up being the shadow, taking some of the stress off of the leaders.

3) Whether the mother is helpful or not, set up a Disability MB as a Troop activity, (yeah I know guys, but it's one of the MB's that should be done this way because everyone needs to be aware, no more running and hiding your heads in the sand), with the guest being an AS peson along, with a person who works with AS. This way the troop, Scouts and Scouters alike receive some knowledge and training on AS. Now there's no excuse for them complaining "We aren't trained".

4) Take Dan's advice and set up a Behavioral IEP over a 6 month period.

- "You meet these expectations and behaviors, at meetings, and you get to participate in this activity." (Bribing does have it's place, and can work if used properly.) Have the DE and DC involved in this meeting, as well as the SM, ASM, CM, Parents, Scout, SPL (if mature enough to handle this and has good judgement), so everyone understands the expectaions, and have it in writing.

- Ask the lad how he preceives Scouting, and what he wants out of it.

5)Since the troop is holding the Scout up to certain standards and expectations, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander".

- Set goals and expectations of the leadership of the Troop for the same period, BSA Special Needs Training, with an emphasis on AS.

- Sensativity training. AREN"T WE SUPPOSE TO BE "KIND"?

- Consequences for the other Scouts for bullying, teasing (in a mean way),

and harrassing this Scout. Teach tolerance and patience.

Enough for now. Good Luck.

Eric P.

ASM915

Speaking of proper Lifeguard training and skills, A couple of years ago, one of the Cleveland TV news crews did ran a story on the safest and not so safe beaches on Lake Erie. Cedar Point Amusement Park Lifeguard staff had a unique response to missing swimmers. They had a net system set up that when they had a report of a missing swimmer, two or three guards responded to each end of the beach swimming area. At each end was a net that would reach from a few feet off the beach out to a 100 to 200 feet off shore. The nets were weighted on the bottom so they drug along the bottem of the lake. The guards would then swim the nets out into the lake, and then drag the nets toward eachother from opposite ends of the beach, meeting in the middle. As soon as there was a drag on one of the nets, the rest of the guards on duty would start snorkeling the net as the guards the farthest out in the lake, would drag the end of the net around and in toward the

shore.

The news crew had a 150 LB mannequin hidden out in the lake. total time from reported missing to on the beach with CPR, less then 3 minutes. The Park standard was set for less then 4 minutes, or you didn't guard.

As for Edgewater Park in Cleveland, It took them 3 days to find the dummie.

The moral of the stoty: If a BSA facility has a large waterfront, maybe the net system and training is the way to go.

I apologize in advance, this is not a scouting question.

I need some information on gas prices for the Rt 77, 26 and 95 corridors, from Ohio to Hilton Head, as well as from Wytheville Va to Ashville NC to Gainesville Ga, down the west side of the mountains. Our prices jumped 20-30 cents to $3.09 this afternoon in Ohio. Any information is appreciated.

I leave tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks,

YIS

Eric Prather

(ASM915)

After midnight, anything whether it be Old Gray Eagles, Beagles or Owls, all look the same. And yes Beagles can become a bird of the feather with the right trajectory off the boot.

JUST KIDDING. I would never do that. I'm sorry of a PETA person, Prefer Eating Tasty Animals, that is.

YIS,

ASM915

Beavah,

Can't you prove your comfort level in the water doing the face down survival float, just as easy as trying to float on your back?

The again, howe many 11 y/o's do you know that are comfortable with putting their face in the water for a prolonged period of time.

Maybe the BSA Swimmer Test should allow you to float in any position you can, face or down.

And a rest stroke? Why does it have to be the Elemtary Backstroke?

Aren't the Breast and Sidestrokes also resting strokes? I like the Breaststroke because I can see where I'm going. I love all the macho guys at the mile swim that tear out across the lake or around the pool with the freestyle. By the end, I've passed most with a nice easy Breaststroke, resting as I go.

OGE, was he just a guard, the coordinator or the director? Was he gone the next week, after all the complaints to the camp director?

LongHaul, I'll see how well I can do the breaststroke and time the swells next week. I'll be floating somewhere off of Hilton Head.

ASM 915 - (use to stand for "a swimming maniac")

One of the Ohio Council's has projected $1500 for their Council's contingency as of todays date.

One time my son took on the ASM handling the Camping MB, over proper clothing. The ASM was an axid backpacker. He didn't like my sons choice of weather related clothing, stating that the certain item wouldn't keep Dave either warm or cool. Dave had it listened for both conditions. Dave went back the next week loaded for bear (internet articles) and diplomatically explained to the ASM about carbon filiment clothing.

The best youth taught program was last year at NOAC at the LNT Trail in the TOAP area. Most of the Trail instructors were less then 14 years old, and man did they know their stuff, and made it comical too boot. Hats off to the Utah boys.

All right, I'll try this again. Don't know if I hit "CLEAR FIELD" by mistake, or was dinged by the moderator.

One nighters are a waste of time. We've had several of them over the last two years because of the band (WB's) and sports (BK's). Man, I just remembered, that season starts next Friday.

Unfortunately, the new SM wants to do one nighters September thru November because of football. Two of the four older Scouts are in band. At least we have no ball players this year. The problem is our team is usually a state contender, and everyone has to go to the game. Sports and band are a real problem with our Troop. Winter we have one wrestler. That's not to bad. Spring we have baseball and year round soccer with several participants.

One Scout has passed on to me during SMC, that he wants to spend more time with and not short change Scouting, if his father will let him. The father is a baseball/wrestling coach, conditioning coach for the HS football team, and the SM.

We have one or two parents that will try to bring their kids to camp after a game on Friday, but ask the rest and you would have thought you asked them to sacrifice the kid. They'll pick the kid up at camp at 6 AM to drive the kid to an event 4 hours away, if the Scout managed to get to camp in the first place, but refuse to drive their Scout no more then an hour to camp on Fri. night. We have 6 Scout camps or Scouting affiliated private camps within 60 minutes of our location that we use.

Gonzo, just let your parent know that their Scout won't contract a case of MOON BLINDNESS. Maybe they are worried about the full moon shining on their Scouts while they are at camp and revealing a family secret. Maybe those weren't coyotes we heard last night.

A question for the masses.

I would like ideas on how to make the AAD and PPXI programs more interesting for the Scouts. I would like to structure the programs so they don't come across as having to sit in another class, especially since the boys are in school all day as it is.

What does your DCCS and or Councils CCoS do to make the programs more interesting for the Scouts?

How do you tie in the great out doors?

If you run weekend retreats and camp-outs, what kind of activities do you have?

What kind of projects do you do that keep the Scouts motivated?

How do you make the classroom time exciting and interesting, not boring?

DO you use Diocesan events like Youth Congress and Youth Retreat to compliment your AAD and PPXII programs? If so, how?

Does your DCCS and or Council's CCoS have a website, and does it help?

What has worked at drawing more Scouts into your programs?

Thanks,

YIS

Eric P

DCCS Diocese Of Youngstown

CCoS Buckeye Council(This message has been edited by ASM915)(This message has been edited by ASM915)

Jambo,

Not trying to draw you into a debate here.

I agree with you on politics, but how is a SM to stay out of Religion when we are to lead by example with "DUTY TO GOD" and being

"REVERANT"? It does not state anywhere that the SM is to teach/preach doctrine. That would be impossible to do, unless the Unit was maybe a LDS Unit where all the members were of the same denomination. Most Units are a mix of different denominations as well as religions.

A SM should be able to sit down with any Scout of any faith, and hopefully carry on a discussion about that Scouts faith and beliefs. Hopefully the SM has done research and has an understanding about the religions he has to deal with within his Troop. He should be able to ask:

How the Scout feels about his faith?

How he shows his faith?

How does the Scout help his religious institution, Temple, Mosque Synagogue, Church, etc?, without prejudice.

The SM should be able to direct the Scout to the appropriate authority to answer questions that the youth may have. The SM should be able to direct the Scout to the appropriate religious Emblems program if the Scout asks.

John,

You I like arguing with (Sorry Jambo).

Is summer-camp big enough numbers wise (like NOAC) each week, that they can run services at different times/days for each of the different religions? Is it a problem running an interfaith vespers, especially since the Judeo Christian and Islamic faiths all have the same GOD, just belief that the other has different prophets of the faith? Even Hindu runs off of a Trilogy, just different names for the key three.

As long as the service, songs and prayers are kept interfaith and not faith specific, everyone should be and feel welcome. If an individual Troop does not wish to participate because of this, they could always approach the camp Chaplain about a private service, maybe held at their campsite. But then what ever happened to being Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful and Reverent?

So much for teaching diversity, tolerance and cultural awareness.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

As per posts from other boards on WSJ, most Scouts from other countries wear their neckers with any clothing, even when out of uniform. It is the neckers that identify them as Scouts. Wonder what would happen if we proposed to the boys, "Class A's without neckers, or Tees or Polos with neckers. Make a choice", which they would choose.

I have old BSA neckers from the 70's, Special made Leadership Corp neckers, OA neckers, etc. Wonder what would happen if we did like the rest of the world, with event neckers instead of patches.

Class A shirt with official patches and hardwear, official shorts and socks. I vary with Dockers (1 or 2 dye lots off of the official color if you can even tell) which makes it easier coming from work. Brotherhood sash with the 1975 pewter NOAC medal (the only thing allowed to be worn on the sash, been there since '75). Neckers. Medals when appropriate.

Labor to Memorial Day, Class A for troop meetings, all Council, District and Lodge events, during travel to camp and events. I like wearing the neckers, but have a hard time getting others to wear them. Went out before my time and now it's like pulling teeth to get the rest to start wear them again. At least my youngest likes wearing them. But then again I'm from the old school, 60's and 70's.

Also have a jack-shirt, circa 70's with the scout patch on the front pocket and the OA Lodge patch on the back. Had a friend just give me 2 more jacks issued in '63. One with the older larger 50 MILER patch, which will stay because it belongs where it's at, and both have Bawldy Bulls, which will be removed until I make it to Philmont and the top of Bawldy. All three in mint condition.

During the summer or when at camp I wear class B. I have a nice assortment of Scouting Tees. Shorts and green socks with hikers or moc's.

A variation on the carwash idea. If you have a moderate to large size company in town, you can offera "Get Your Car Washed While You're at Work" day. Charge $5 per car and $10 for trucks, Suv's and vans. The same can be set up with a church with a large congregation. Only problem is that with the church, they're not there all day.

Earlier this year, another posters Troop did a Hoagie sale. The local deli sold the sandwiches to the Troop in bulk at a discounted rate, $2.50 - $3.00 and the troop sold them for $4.50 - $5.00. The Troop posted signs along the roads leading up to the sale sites that they had set up. The sites were worked by 4 or 5 Scouts with 2 adult leaders or parents at each site. they ran 4 sites and made over a $1000 for 2-3 hours work.

Good luck.

CRW,

From the little inof presented, it sounds like the SM dropped the ball. As stated in other posts, some Troops notify the Scouts immediately of their election. If the Troop is like ours, and likes to keep it a secret until tap outs, the SM should at least notify the parents so they can make appropriate plans for their Scout to be present at Tap Out when ever it is held, summer-camp or another weekend activity. We had one family that was on vacation the week before summer-camp. Their plans were to return early the week of camp, but because they were made aware of the honor, they made sure they were in on Saturday night so the Scout would go to camp on Sunday with the Troop.

Because of our Councils camp honors program, our lodge runs two Ordeals a year (unlike my old Lodge that ran an Ordeal every Friday night whiel summer-camp was running). They running one this weekend, and another the first weekend of next June. This helps out the Scouts that are in fall or spring sports. Sometimes the June date may interfere with Graduation.

Let's look at this another way. POR is not the only requirement to get the rank. If the Scout is not fulfilling the requirements for the job description:

1) We can always remove him from the postition.

2) We can attempt to mentor him in the position.

OR

3) Inform the young man that he has not met our expectations for his position, so there for we will see him 6 months from now at his next Scoutmasters Conference, and we expect him to be fulfilling his positions obligations. If he needs help, we will help him if he asks. Otherwise we'll be seeing him again 6 months later at the next SMC until he figures it out.

The Scoutmasters Conference is our safety valve around all the other requirements and term limits. If the scout manages to meet all the requirements, but there is concern by the SM on whether position obligations have been met, or scout Spirit has been shown, (that's a whole other post, so let's not get into Spirit here), we defer the conferfence to another time when we feel he has fulfilled his obligations. Sweet, Short and Simple.

BEWARE!!!

The DAC informed us tonight at the District Committee meeting that somewhere in Council, a District EBOR rejected an applicant on the grounds of NOT carrying out his duties in his POR. The Council EBOR appeals team followed suit, only to be shot down by National. The reason, The Scout had held the position for the required 6 months even though he didn't do anything.

As the DAC then stated, "Like I've told everyone in the past, IF HE ISN'T FULFILLING HIS JOB REQUIREMENTS FOR HIS POR, FIRE HIM BEFORE HE HOLDS THE POSITION FOR 6 MONTHS AND GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE".

Any comments?

Eric

7 Ranges Scout Reservation

Kensington, Ohio

Buckeye Council

Camp Algonkin (main camp)

25 sites

366 two men tents

Only one site open during seven weeks of camp.

Camp Calumet (outpost camp)

5 campsites

Bring your own tents

Can hold around 100 people

Camp Akela (WRC)

The week our Troop was in Calumet, Akela had two sessions averaging 70 Webelos plus adults per session.

Reservation totals:

Scout camp - 500-600 Scouts/Scouters per week

times 7 weeks = 3500 to 4200 for the summer.

Add Akela figuring 100 per week = 700 Webelos.

Add 250-300 extra on Friday nights to run the Honors Program times 7 weeks = another 1750-2100.

Add Camp Staff of 100.

Friday nights ballooned to 900-1000 Scouts/Scouters in camp with the camp and honors staff present.

4200-4900 campers attending summer-camp and WRC for 2007.

And this year they dropped 8th week.

And this doesn't figure in the 6 Cub Day Camps, around 200-300 per District.

Tonight at the District Committee meeting, a situation that happened at summer-camp came up. An 11 y/o Scout, that per his parents request, was not to ever have a knife in his possession due to psychiatric related issues, tried to buy one at the trading post. He was initially turned down because he didn't have a Totem Chit card. The scout then went to Scout Craft and earned his card without the leaderships knowledge. The scout then went back to the trading post and purchased a knife without any questions being asked. The Scout later in the week was involved in an altercation (luckily without the knife being brandished), and subsequently sent home. The knife was found during the altercation.

A few questions:

1) How does your Council's summer-camp staff handle Totem Chit cards (TCC's)? Do they just hand the cards out to any Scout that completes the requirements, or does the staff place the cards in the Troop's in-camp mailbox, like they do with the adult certification cards, for the SM or ASM's to hand out back in the campsite

2) Does your camp's trading post staff hand over a pocketknife to any Scout that shows up with a TCC and the appropriate amount of cash for the purchase?

3) Does your camp's trading post staff require a letter from an adult, or better yet, an adult to be present for the purchase of a pocketknife by a youth?

As one of the members stated at tonight's meeting. "Can you just imagine 300 crazy Scouts running around camp with knives."

4)Does your Troop have policies on youth purchasing pocketknives?(This message has been edited by ASM915)

What are the other three Scouts POR within the troop?

Did the Scouts' decision to go to the OA event drain the Troop's youth leadership or were there other older Scouts or Scout in POR that were able step up and take over?

Was the OA event a recently scheduled event, or has it been on the calender for several months or even over a year? Some OA calenders and events are planned out two or three years in advance so Troops can plan around them and prevent conflicts.

OA is very busy from May to Sept. Some run tap outs and Ordeal every weekend, some tap outs every Wednesday but Ordeal twice a year, once in June and once in August. Some run their WRC Honors ceremonies. Our tap outs usually nedd at least 20 - 30 people a night. Ordeal. I'm not sure. It's better then our camp honors program that needs 250-300 people per Friday night for it to go off in a timely fashion.

Was this event the Ordeal weekend, and these Scouts are part of the Ceremony Team or Lodge Leadership and needed to be there?

Were these Scouts tapped out for OA and this was their Ordeal Weekend?

Are they new to OA and this is/was one of the first events after their Ordeal?

I'm glad to hear that your Scout want to participate in an OA event and not just wear the Lodge flap and OA sash because it cool. Wish we could get a few of our Scouts to take an interest in OA events.

Has your Troop appointed an OA Representative, and if so, does he attend the Chapter meetings and bring back information to the Troop? If you haven't appointed one, do so, and take him to the Chapter meetings, which are usually held the same night and at the same location as the District Roundtable.

As per my last post,

Last weekend in Minerva, Ohio, 10 miles from our main camp, the Minerva PD had to put a stop to the Minerva Homecoming events as soon as the fireworks ended due to a two year old 200 LB male black bear. He was last seen heading east from Carroll County into Columbiana County. Guess where the camp is at, right on the county line. This has been one of 8 bear spottings within 20 miles of the camp in the last three weeks.

I think there will be some discussion with the camp director later this morning about any precautions that are being taken, if any.