ASM915

Nick,

They're still making you guys march at Manatoc? Good!!! I'm an old Manatoc Scout from the 70's. I spent a lot of time out there between Troops 18 and 182 and OA.

If I remeber correctly, you will come onto the parade field as you march in from your campsite. Use the jodies then.

When you reach your Troops lineup spot and stop, call Troop 412 HALT. I don't remember the next command, but it is the equivalent of "Right, Dress Right", but the Scouts extend their right arm straight out and place their hand on the shoulder of the person in front of them to get their spacing. Maybe Gunny or Gonzo can help here?

Then place them at Parade Rest.

The camp staff will then call out orders.

When the Troops start to march around the parade ground

- Call Troop 412 Attention

- Forward March

- Column Right March, as you turn and march in front of the other Troops.

- Column Left March, as you turn up toward the flagpole and staff.

- Column Left March, as you turn to march in front of the staff and flag.

- As you approach the staff and flag call "Eyes Right" or "Present Arms" (whichever the camp prefers) at which time the Scouts turn their heads to the right (and salute?) while your flagbearer dips your Troop flag as you march by the US flag.

- After You pass the staff, call " Eyes Front".

- Continue to call "Column Left March" around the parade ground until you reach your starting point and the "Halt" if you go back to your starting point, or march them right over to the dining hall.

Do they still have the dreaded GIZMO at camp? Have you ever had to kiss the moose or wild boar at the dining hall?

E. Prather

Bicentennial Eagle

ASM Troop 915

Canal Fulton, Oh(This message has been edited by ASM915)

I just finished placing flags on the gravesites of veterans at two of our villages cemetaries. We ran across one bronze marker that we could not identify. From the bottom up it started with either feathers of plumes of leafs that arched out from eachother forming an open circle at the top, In the center were three circle, one center and the other two offset to the top on opposite sides of the first circle. In the upper left circle was the capital letter F, in the center circle the letter L, and in the upper right circle the letter T. The person was born in the mid 1836 and died in 1914. the cemetary is in northern Ohio. We know that there is a Confederate Vet buried somewhere in the cemetary, but his marker disappeared two years ago. I'm not sure if this is the same grave.

Do any of our historians have any idea what the FLT stand for and what branch of the service and conflict this person was in?

Here's an idea. Next spring, have the "Video Game Camporee". get a few former gaming adults together. Have them go pick apart some of the more popular video games for program area ideas. OOPS, I forgot, they're to violent. Alright find some non-violent games, pull some ideas for an area activity and incorporate Scout skills. Set that area up around having to complete the task or level to move on to the next area/level. Offer up some great prizes for the patrols that make all the levels.

Promotion wise: really promote the weekend as a gaming weekend. Don't let the boys in on the fact that they can't use their systems. Actually advertise which games are going to be used for the weekend, and that the games instruction manual is specifically needed. Have them use the manual to decipher clues at each station, then use their Scouting skills to complete the station.

With a little deception, and a well kept secret, I'll bet you would have the largest turnout in history for your camporee, and show them that they can have fun away from the screen and controls.

Mike F,

"Back to commercial aspects". Sounds like the casinos.

GW, he'll only gain weight if he remembers to stop long enough to eat. LOL.

Beardad,

I think you missed the intended correlation between alcohol, drugs and gaming. Yes, one is illegal, the other two are not. Sorry to respectful disagree, but yes, video games can be just as, if not more addicting then the other two.

Ask an alcoholic and he'll tell you that yes he likes drinking and doesn't have a problem, and would probably rather be at the bar then on some stupid camping trip or out door activity. Does he have an addiction problem? Not in his eyes.

Does that mean a kid that can't wait to get home to get on the system and play for hours, every day does not have a problem? Not in his eyes, or probably in the eyes of the parent that has dished out major bucks for the system, games and accessories. If he would rather be on the system all the time instead of participating in other activities whether they be school, church, family, sports, etc, yes he has an addiction problem. I

s he going to go to a Gaming Olympics and make a name for himself? Doubtful.

Will he become a weapons specialist or pilot for the military? Possibly, if he can be a team player and learns some leadership abilities. Isn't going to happen sitting behind a screen all day long.

Will he become a program designer? Possibly.

As for gaming being cheaper then buying camping equipment, LET'S GET REAL HERE!! An XBOX 360 starts at $279, Most of the accessories such as steering systems, different control devices all start around $50 and run up to $200. Games start at $50. So I'm looking at at least $380+ just for the system and two games? Let's see. i can get a good sleeping bag for under $100, a starter backpack for under $75, a good sleeping pad for around $50, a mess kit at $10, a Nalgene water bottle for $10, a flashlight for $10-15, and a good tent for the other $140 to get me just to the starting price of the system. Honestly, I think I'm way ahead for what I'm getting for my dollar with my camping equipment then you are with the gaming equipment. At least it will be a long while before my equipment will become outdated and need replaced unlike the system that will be outdated within a year or two and need replaced.

We have fun playing games also, but don't throw a lot of money away. The last thing we bought was a used Playstation 2 and a few used games. Sorry if I come across as being hard. Find my earlier posts in this thread and read them.I have been there in the past and now really have to watch if I start playing to make sure that I don't get caught up in it a waste a lot of valuable time.

One thought. My oldest son was babysat by my inlaws several days a week while my wife and I worked. They bought a gaming system, Sega I think. We're talking the late 80's and early 90's. Dave played the games with both grandparents for several hours a day. This was when he was 4-6 years old. By the time he was 8 or 9, he was totally burned out on video games, and it was never a problem through his teen years. Maybe we can burn them out early.

OGE,

Great!! Waterfront property. The price just went up. LOL. To bad it's not coastal property. Then it wouldn't matter if it was swampy, it would be worth a fortune.

Packsaddle,

Yep, Solar panels and a reverse meter sounds good. Just think of all the roof space available, especially on camp structures. As for dam removal, over the last 5-10 years, they have been taking down several dams on the Cuyahoga. If they could now remove the three low-head dams and Ohio Edison dam used for the old power-plant, then clean up the muck, we might be able to restore a great picturesque gorge, and reclaim several waterfalls and the caves.

Watch out Ohiopyle!!! We would have a mile drop over a 2-3 mile distance if that. Talk about some wild white water opportunities in Akron.

1) The Scouts would not be supporting a candidate or party.

-Or are all the bill's sponsors all from the same party?

-Is this a push by the Pa. Scout Councils to get the bill passed because they may stand to gain monetarily if passed? They will definitely be getting free publicity and advertising from the plates. So much for no free rides.

2) Hornaday Project (HIJACK # 2)

- One of the project ideas for the award is to have Scouts either come up with proposed legislation relating to conservation and environmental issues and present it to their Rep's or Senators, or help their Rep's or Sen. with a campaign for proposed legislation related to the above. What say yea, Gern & Calico, Yeah or Ney. It's a Scouting award that could mean proposing and or campaigning at the state or federal level for legislation.

3)As for the first hijack, The Dam, what does a dam have to do with plates?

- I see potential for Hornaday projects here.

- Maybe the Council could rebuild the dam to as a hydro-electrical facility supplying the camp with all the electricity they need, work a deal for free electricity for the other Council properties, and sell the rest back to the utilities to cover the cost of the project. The Council will save a fortune on their electric bill, and when the project costs are put to rest, they'll be turning a nice profit. Sounds like another HA project.

- Pack, how about being the Hornaday Advisor for the down stream ecosystem reconstruction and flood control?

4) Hey, OGE, what does an acre of land fetch over there and how many acres are we talking? How much could the Council get if they first timbered it off,

brought in a couple of land developers that probably sit on the Exec. Committee, to develop the land, and then sell it off, compared with just selling it as undeveloped lots? Could Council turn enough of a profit to buy the amount of new acreage needed a new camp?

- Merit Badge opportunities galore for the next Merit Badge Academy, Amer. Business, Energy, Entrepreneurship, Enviro Science, F&WM, Forestry, Geology, Salesmanship, S&WC and Surveying.

- Oh, scratch #4. I forgot about the housing market crunch. So much for the Merit Badge Academy courses.

le Voyager,

Yep, I've been to a couple of the want-a-be Pow Wows before. Actually we were at one where they didn't secure the US flag or the Eagle Staff, and both went down in the wind. Both were picked back up without a second thought, secured a little better, and continued on as if nothing had happened. That is why we usually only attend the ones on the Rez's. That way everything is authentic to that tribe, and the elders are usually more then willing to help the Scouts, as long as the boys are interested and respectful.

The ones run locally at the fairgrounds or neighborhood parks seem to be into it for the dollar. Cheap materials at way overinflated prices. And as you said, a mishmash of mixed regalia.

CNY,

Does your son have his BSA Lifeguard certificate, or ARC Lifesaving training? If he does I'll bet they will definitely be checking him

out real good. I would rather be hiring a 16y/o or even a mature 15 y/o with the training then an over 17 without it.

When our Council camp guys found out that my oldest had his ARC Lifesaving and Waterfront training and was working year round as a city lifeguard, the two years he attended summer-camp, they were all over him to come back to camp to work the waterfront. They didn't care how old he was. He had the maturity and the training they needed, and were willing to let him challenge the BSA Lieguard test and test out immediately. Unfortunately, the city was already paying him $9 to $10 per hour, 40 hours per week during the summer, and Council of coures was not able to even come close to that.

Election results are in.

The outgoing Chapter Chief helped the new Chief hold the elections. He gave a speech, which the adults missed because we were tending to another Troop issue, about qualifications, popularity contests, and Special Needs Scouts. He informed the gang that he himself was a SNS, had managed to become Eagle and Chapter Chief amongst other positions.He informed them that they should really think hard about turning things into a popularity contest just because they don't always understand the NSN, and that most SNS are just as qualified if not more so then most of them.

The Scout in question is already figuring that he did not get elected again. Man will he be surprised at tapouts at the Spring Camporee. Thanks for everyones stories, experiences and general input.

YIS

ASM915

As a Medic for the last 25 years, I have to agree with RmemberSchiff. The ARC Wilderness First Aid is just a taste for the lay person. It gives them just enough information to maybe squeeze by. If it were me, I would be looking at WMA, SOLO or NOLS. Major cost difference, better programs.

Most EMT's and Medics are taught urban medicine. OK, add farm medicine for the rural guys. A city guy will in time figure out how to handle a farm accident, with regular training, but the farm boy will know how to do it faster and safer with different techniques that the city guy has no clue about.

How does this tie in with our subject? The regular EMT or Medic, unless they serve in an area that requires back-country rescue and techniques, has SAR's training, will be able to figure things out in time and make adjustments. But will it be in time?

1) Your climbing with a bunch of Scouts. Someone falls and ends up with a spinal injury. You are 6 hours back in the mountains. How are you going to get the victim out? You have no backboards to strap him to.

- The backpacks come apart, are lashed together to make a litter/ stokes, something rigid to support the spine so you can start extricating him from the back-country.

2) Above victim is unconscious with a head injury and needs the airway kept open during the retreat out. EMT's and Medics are going to keep manually opening the airway. That causes delays. You cant stop every couple of minutes to open his mouth.

What do you do?

The wilderness guy, with his little survival pack (remember that from TF, SC and FC) will hopefully have some different size safety pins, hopefully some big ones. The wilderness guy will pin the tongue to the lower lip keeping the airway open. Believe me, I really don't think most of the city guys would even think of this or try it.

The little safety pins come in handy in place of stitches when stitches aren't available.

3) He has an impaled object sticking out of his chest. Think Deliverance. The city guy will stabilize it as is. Man I wouldn't want that thing sticking out of my chest banging around on the tree branches as my buds are trying to get me out of the woods.

The wilderness guy is trained to break it off at the skin.

All you EMt's and Medics out there that think that BSA should give you a free ride on the WFA, let's get of the soapbox, become a little modest here and remember that we aren't GOD (as we accuse Doc's of being) and that YES we can still learn something more, sometimes from someone less trained then we are because they know how to do it different and sometimes better.

A good higher level WFA program teaches to think out side of the box, how to modify what you were taught in the hospital class setting to work in the wilderness setting and how to best care for your victim when you will take several hour to reach professional care.

Guys' It is just like the MD that shows up on your accident scene and wants you to rush getting the victim out of the car, forget C-spine immobilization and all other protocols because "I'M THE DOCTOR AND YOUR A MEDIC". It doesn't mean that he knows what he is doing when he is out of his elememt. Wilderness and Urban/Farm are based off of the same basic principles, but they are not the same animal.

Go take a good WFA program. It may cost a couple to several hundred dollars, but it will be worth it's wieght in gold. ARC is just a good introduction, maybe.

mlg,

Was 7 Ranges one of the camps they checked out. Just curious.

Lisa, I pretty much grew up at Manatoc, but that was back in the 70's. Manatoc and Camp Butler (what used to be the more primitive camp of the two) are ajoining properties using the same waterfront. Manatoc has a pool. Butler, I don't know for sure. They may still use the old waterfront for swimming. Both camps make up about 700 acres and sit within the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. There is plenty of hiking in the valley, and skiing in the winter. The OA's Cuyahoga Valley Trail runs through both camps and is 13.7 miles long. Kendall Lake and Ledges border Manatoc.

Summer-camp use to be pretty nice. the dining hall is a historical site. I was at their Council offices today. They are starting a dining hall expansion. I don't know the timeline on the construction. You might want to check.

Eric

We have a couple special need Scouts in our Council. These Scouts will be over 18 at the time of Jambo, but still considered youth members.

Is 18 National's cutoff for Jambo?

How has Jambo handled the Special Needs Scouts at past Jambo's?

How has your Council handled Special Need Scouts and Jambo?

How has the Scout's age effected his eligibility?

I would hate to see these Scouts(Special Needs Scouts in general,)who usually show more Scout Spirit the most of our teens, be sidelined for such an event because of being 18.

There are other things besides Eagle that he can involve himself with doing. Some can use his academic load from school depending on his iterests.

Has he earned his Religious Emblem Awards for your faith?

Is he interested in conservationn? If he has the right mix of merit badges, he may be close to achieving the Hornaday Awards if he completes the related projects. He can involve the Troop and have them earn Hornaday Certificate while he earns the badge or one of the

medals. He could incorperate the 50 Miler or Historical Trail Award into one of the projects for him and the Troop to earn. he can use his coursework at school to help with the Hornaday and the Historical Trail Awards and possibly receive recognition on his academic record as well. The Hornaday projects could be set up around high adventure trips that he could/would have to plan.

How about him spearheading a new Venture Crew associated with the Troop? That opens up a whole new list of things to become invovled with and to earn, for him and the Troop.

Good luck,

Eric

Last May, our neighboring Council lost an 11 year old Scout that lived in our town unexpectedly to similar circumstances . Some of our Scouts and myself found out when the funeral procession was expected at the cemetery and had a colorguard at the enterance when the procession arrived. It was a difficult time for their Troop because the Troop consisted of only 3 or 4 families. Our prayers are with your Pack and his family.

FireKat,

From one smoke eater to another, I had a friend that I use to work with. She was of Lebanese descent. One day she heard her 4 year old sing a song in Lebanese about the ladies walking down the street with their backsides(word changed) cacheting back and forth. She calmly asked him where he learned the song. He replied "Auntie." Well Auntie had ran the largest brothel east of the Mississppi in Cleveland, with DC clientele. My friend decided to let it drop figuring that he would soon forget the song. She figured that if she had carried on about it that he would have put the song to memory forever, because mom didn't like it.

As for disappearing threads and posts. it should be a moderator group decision, not just one person making the decision, unless the post or thread was so blatantly over the line. This way one moderator doesn't go over the edge. This way being a group decision, there is teeth in the decision, and more credibility with the members. Like I said the other day, "Watch out for those MIB".(This message has been edited by ASM915)

Wow OGE,

I wonder what I missed on that thread the other day. The thread must have really went south.

This morning I woke up with 20+ emails from the "Plant Identification" thread and "Improving Webelos Programming". Every time that I try ro opening them, the "unable to view" or "under mainainance, try later" page pops up. This afternoon, same thing, but only on these two threads. What's up?

I was a 16 or 17 y/o Bicentennial Eagle in the good old days when Scouting was Scouting. My oldest was a deathbed Eagle right at 17 and 364 days. Almost all of the Eagles in our Troop get Eagle at 17.

Now if they had a strong Venturing program, or started a Rover program, then maybe 14 wouldn't be so bad.

I'm more concerned with keeping the boys involved. And freezing their @#$ends off on their first camp-out I'm sure has driven many a youth away. In my days, if you turned 11 in Aug. or September, to bad. That's when you moved to the Troop.

Gold WIng,

I'm wioith you. I don't remember any cross over in the late 60's when I turned 11. I remember Webelos being no more then 1 year..

If we need to have cross-over, do it at the first meeting in September.

The new Tigers will go WOW, look at those Cubs. They are becoming Boy Scouts.

Maybe we won't lose over half the Scouts that we do at spring cross-over, because we freeze them out of Scouting on their first Boy Scout camp-out in Feb. or March. At least with a September cross-over, they'll be prepared for winter camping, and have a year to prepare for summer camp. Why rush them?

WDL,

1) Make sure the Web's are prepared to handle such weather.

2) Next year meet with one of your area troops a few weeks to a month before Klondike and have them go over proper clothing and layering, and make sure your guys practice what they learned. You also get your troop visit requirement out of the way.

3) Have a back up plan if you have to cancel, bowling, swimming etc. That way the weekend is not a total lose.

Last weekend was our Klondike. Friday night it was a balmy 15-20 degrees, which ended up being the high for Saturday. By dark Saturday, we were down to single digits. During the day we had 7 Webelos Dens participating. Luckily they were all layered up appropriately, and had a great time.

Proper clothing and layering is everything. You can add to stay warm. Never use cotton, even if it is totally covered. It will still hold your perspiration and chill you and your fares.

Saturday evening about 8:00 PM, Council called out to the Klondike site and told any Troops still camping to go home because of the wind chill, that they wouldn't cover us under the insurance for cold related injuries if we stayed. There were 4 Troops still there, the troop whose CO, a sports club was the Klondike site, us and 2 others. The host Troop came around about 30 minutes later and offered indoor facilities if things deteriorated overnight. No one went up to the building, no one went home. The winds didn't pick up until we were all bedded down. Actually I was more then comfortable both nights and had to remove layers.

When my oldest did his first two Klondikes, the highs were 0 degrees, with nighttime lows at -22.

When people look at me and ask "Are you crazy camping in weather like this?", I tell them I can add clothing and stay warm, but in the summer I can only strip down so far before I naked, and I'm still miserable.

By the way, I talked with a fiend from Chicago the other day. They did cancel their Klondike because of expected wind chills in the -40's range.

Good luck next year.

Tindeuchen,

If you can take the guys to Indianapolis, go to the Eiteljorg Museum. Call ahead and talk with the curator. They have awesome displays of Native regalia. I don't know if you are allowed to take pictures, but it's worth checking out.

Tindeuchen,

Where specifically are you located? The suggestion on contacting an area Tribal Council is good. Contact Jim Clippinger from the Tecumseh Council in Ohio. He is of Deleware decent and use to be the their Council's Lodge adviser.

His sister, Rene Dennison from Ohio, is a Native Ethno-Artist, historian and geneologist who travels nationally teaching classes and running programs on Native culture, art and craftwork and working behind the scenes with Native issues. She would be an invaluable resource when it comes to regalia. If she can not help you, she will be able to put you into contact with someone near your location.

Another source is Native Tec. Anything you want to learn about Native culture and art is there.

Our Lodge's CT and Council's camp honors CT use a hodgepodge of mixed up regalia that drives my oldest son crazy. They are set in their ways and change doesn't come easy.

Ohio Scouter,

North Lawrence Hunt and Fish Club. Great place for Klondike. A nice group. They sponsor a Troop. Saturday night Council called out to notify any Troops still camping to head home due to wind chills. If they stayed, Council wouldn't cover them insurance wise for cold injuries. The wind didn't even kick up until we were all bedded down.

The club Troop came around and offered their building as shelter during the night if anyone felt it was getting to bad. We had only one that had a hard time . He came out on Saturday night to get another night for Polar Bear. He forgot his ground pad, refused one offered to him and got a little chilly. It was about 0 when we crawled out about 7:00 AM.

Found something that helped with the bedding this weekend. On the walking out of the garage Friday, I saw my wifes foam foil sun reflector for the windshield laying in a corner. It found a nice cozy spot between my 2 sealed foam pads and my Therarest pad. It did a nice job at reflecting the body heat back. Both nights I was more then toasty and had to peel off the socks and thermals and open the fleece liner. The next morning the gloves and pants that I had placed between the Therarest and the sun reflector were nice and warm also.

Hope everyone stayed warm on your excursions.