ASM915

AhoyDave,

Before your son was tapped out, had he attended a tap out ceremony?

Did you talk with any of the Lodge leadership about your concerns about your son and Ordeal?

My son falls into the autistic spectrum. He had seen at least three ceremonies. He wanted to be in OA, but felt he would never be elected. He was excited when he was. he couldn't wait for Ordeal. We had several talks about how he would be required to stay silent for 24 hours, which with Dan staying quiet for one or two minutes is nearly impossible. Luckily for us, several of the Lodge leadership knew Dan and were aware of his issues going into Ordeal. To all of our suprise, Dan didn't mutter hardly a sentence the whole 24 hours.

See about having your son renominated and tapped out again. Talk with the Lodge leadership and ceremony team, so that maybe your troop and son can be located in a special spot so the team knows this is the scout they nedd to handle differently and gentle. Work something out with the leadership for Ordeal ahead of time. Maybe there is an Elongomat on the team that has SN experience, or that your son may know that could be his aide if needed. If your not in OA, maybe you can go through it with him, then you and your son assist the Lodge with other SN scouts coming through.

Also, when our troop lost most of the older scouts aging out and became a very young troop, it took the younger new guys about a year to figure out and get use to Dan.

tagguy,

Sorry, I just came across your post. I'll have to assume that this boy has crossed over or quite. Here are a few suggestions for the next time you are presented with this situarion.

1. I would try to have a sit down with the parents, present DL and the SM to discuss corssing over and what their needs and expectations are from the troop. You can talk with the DL about how he handle situations. You can tall the parents how you think things will work.

2. Invite the parents and the DL to a meeting with the troop leaders (SM, ASM's SPL JASM's) to cover the information from the first meeting with them.

3. Maybe there is a scout in the troop that may know the boy and family and would be willing to help him. It would actually be better if there were two or three scouts. That way if one was absent from a meeting, he would still have someone he would be comfortable with at the present. This would also give the three of them a chance to switch off if needed during a meeting or outting. This would have worked well in the old days when the Dens were mixed age and not by grade level.

Does your troop have a Dne Chief working with the Den that the boy is coming out of that may be able to take him under his wing until he gets use to new group?

In April we took a group of scouts to DC. On our way through Pa.we

stopped at a Wendy's. When our line reached the register, the person managing the olace asked who the leaders were. He then asked the scouts to let us come to the front of the line. One of the scouts asked why. His reply was "Since the leaders are taking you on a trip, they eat for free. That was a nice gesture and definetly helped with the budget.

We also had several people stop us on the street and ask if we needed assistance, several of them were active or former scouts. We had employees of the ARC's national HQ stop us and ask us to come to their building if we needed a cool place to rest and offered us water and cold drinks.

Wearing a scout T-shirt or your uniform opens a lot of doors.

Fred,

You are right. The scout should choose the film. But then he needs everyones approval before watching it. If a scout showed up and informed me that he wanted to watch "Mad Max" or "Clockwork Orange", I sure hope as a MBC I would have a few alternative movies to offer up instead of the scout selected movies.

Ursus, I'm sure SWING VOTE definitley took some hard hits on the reviews due to alcohol use, language and spoofing the establishment. At least there was no sex and violence, and the main character turned over a new leaf at the end and realized his civic duty.

Today, "High Noon" and "Kelly's Heros" would pull at least a PG-13.

As for PG vs PG-13, most of our scouts working on this MB are usually over 13. Plus they need their parents approval first. With PG-13 you definitely need to know the contents of the film. They do run the gamet. Some Billy Graham films from the 70's have pulled an R rating because they deal with going into the streets and trying to minister to the drug crowds.

I know this has been discussed in the past. What movies would you recommend for Citizenship in The Community. Last Friday my wife and I saw SWING VOTE. Other then a couple of swear words, it was a good movie that would fit the bill.

hh,

Sorry, no sample questions. But, for Citizenship in The Comm. requirement for watching a movie, I have a suggestion. Last Friday my wife and I went and saw Swing Vote. There are a couple minor swear words in the movie, but otherwise it would be a great movie that shows our constitutional obligations, and how idiotic our gov. can be.

Gern,

I work at a local hospital that has a regional heart center. A couple of years ago we had a patient in the open heart unit that had a chest tat that we couldn't make out. After surgery, and we woke him up in the ICU, we asked him what the tat was. He started laughing and told us he threatend to have "NO CPR" tatted on his chest. His brother dared him, and he did it. True story. Good thing he had bypass before he arrested.

Baden,

It is to bad that that the upset parents and the SM didn't find a new CO , with the help of the DE & DC. They could have packed up the scouts that wished to join the new troop, and leave the old Co hanging and having to rebuild.

Our troop had a minor issue with our old CO. The IR insisted that all the leaders and CM needed to be fingerprinted for Diocesan YP. Everyone was will if the CO would pay, but the CO refused, even though they paid for their CCD teachers, assistants etc. The VFW snatched up the chance to be the sponsor, which is where we are now.

BW,

You stated that you advocate the ASM approaching the CO (COR and or IR) about the issues. Agreed. Ultimately they are they final two that need to be approached in the end.. But maybe the ASM needs some firepower behind him before going to them. Someone stated earlier that you may burn your bridges when airing an issue with the CC, COR or IR. At least the DE or DC can educate the ASM whether he has a valid reason to go to the CO, or whether the battle he has chosen is a non-issue, and he should drop it over their cup of java.

But what happens when the SM, CC, CCOR and IR end up being elbow rubbing drinking buddies. Then unfortunately the ASM, or other CM's have no one on the unit level to approach.

THEN WHAT???

GW is correct, sort of. Technically the Unit and CO can not sued. Then again anyone can try to file a suit on anything, even if they no they can't win but just to cause a ruckus. Whether they have grounds to and can win are a different story.

just because someone cannot sue the CO does not mean that they cannot go after Council. If I remember correctly, when our FD and DE are out trying to recruit new CO's the pitch is that the CO can not be sued because they fall under the umbrella of Council's or National's. policy. National or Council would have to fight the battle in court not the unit. Sooo, it is advisable to have the Council aware of the issue, and possibly giving advice to the unit on the direction to proceed, because they, the Council could be drug into the problem in the end.

Our Troop has outpost camped for years. The camp does supply a fridge and freezer shed for cold supplies for the three outpost camps. We supply our own food.

Usually our cooks are up and cooking between 6:30 and 7:00. Breakfast is at 7:15-7:30. First MB is at 9:00, anywhere from a 10-30 minute walk depending where it is. The Scouts usually have 30 minutes for clean up, latrine duty etc before the have to leave camp.

If we have Scouts taking the Cooking MB and depending on the number, we usually have them skip first period so they have time to work on the cooking. Lunch is only an issue if some of us need to be in main camp at 1:00 for meetings (the MB classes end at 11:50 and outpost is lucky to have lunch started by 12:20). The camp likes to hold the SM meetings after lunch for some reason. I think I'll suggest they try to change it to after breakfast.

We have a good commissioner staff who show up to inspect the site and bring the daily newsletter out to us. We have on occassion had a problem where something was change relating to classes, mentioned at lunch, and the commish didn't think it was important to come over and tell us, and our kids given a hard time about not being where they were suppose to be. We have had to have a few stern talks with MB counselors and the camp director to resolve these issues.

As for flag raising and lowering, the camp does supply each outpost camps with it's own flagpole and flag. I like the idea of sending everybody but the cooks over for flag raising/lowering if it weren't a 20 minute gaunt one way.

jb, come down to 7 Ranges outside of Canton, Oh. The camp runs Patrol games and competions, and outpost offers patrol/Troop cooking. If you come 7th period, your guys can take in some of the Football Hall of Fame activities on your way out. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Inventure Place and Cedar Point are also on your way home.

AlabamaDan,

Gcan has a good idea with involving the Pack. If you are real energetic, propose it as a District Cub event. The more the merrier. Depending what the geographical makeup of the parks is, you could possibly get National Wildlife Federation, Ducks Unlimited, Gander Mountain, state agencies as sponsors and for funding. maybe different District Packs could work on a different part of the trail, or on a different trail for the WCA , and then pledge to keep the trail clean and picked up, as someone else mention, for the LNT Award. Good luck.

dampcamper,

Is the Committee Chair approachable, or are between the CC and SM to close?

Is the COR, IR and CO involved, or a silent sponsor?

What is the IR's and COR's relationship with the SM?

If the CC is approachable, go to them first with your concerns. If things are to tight between the CC and SM, move up to the COR and IR. The committee and SM serve at the CO and IR's discretion, and any of them can be removed, or the troop folded.

Two case examples that happened in our district:

1) The CO church had a problem with the parents of a couple of scout brothers. I don't remember the specifics involved. CO asked the Troop to drop the boys from the roster because of the tiff with the parents. The Troop refused. The CO unfortunately dropped the charter and folded the Troop instead of replacing the committee and troop leadership. The church may have been wrong in asking the Troop to do this. I don't remember if the Troop moved to another CO.

2) Husband was SM, wife was Crew Advisor, daughter was Venture/Ranger, possibly Silver Award, and ASM. CO was a non-involved silent Catholic K of C sponsor.

There had been long standing issues with the Troop and Crew at the District and Council level for a number of years. No YP issues though, but issues with other rule violations. Mom and dad informed CO that dad was stepping down and that the 21 y/o daughter was stepping up. Co didn't have an issue. CO was not informed when the change was taking place that the daughter was pregnant out of wedlock. Because the parents in the Troop, and the committee (who were probably not trained, mom and pop had seeded the committee with who they wanted over the years instead of the other way around) were not informed on how things were suppose to happen within BSA, and mom CA constantly badmouthed the Council and District to the parents, and how both were out to get them, the committee was not approachable. Someone approached the DE, DC and SE. All it took was the DE with the SE's blessing , to approach the IR and COR with the list of infringements by the present leadership, and the fact that the CO wasn't informed of the new SM present condition. The COR and IR didn't realize that they could purge the leadership and replace them with more suitable leadership figures until informed so by the DE. The CO asked for a private meeting with the District, Council and Troop committee, no leaders, to discuss the problem. The meeting leaked to the family from somewhere within the troop, who showed and carried on about being railroaded. The CO's eyes were really opened and the family was removed from both the Troop and Crew, and new leadership was introduced.

Neil and WWW have sound advice. Council can check with their Legal to make sure that there is no problem if the CO proceeding with the removal, or if there could be any issues (defamation of character, liable, etc) that could creep up post removal and bite anyone including the CO in the proverbial you no what, and how to proceed.

BW, that is why it is wise to check with Council. They pay for their Counsel. Being just a volunteer, I wouldn't want to have to pay for an opinion out of my pocket. I need it for gas and other Scouting stuff.

"And if you're a Yank, the Reb. ghosts will haunt you after dark". That was until we told the guide that we had ancestors that fought on the Reb. side also.

Eaglescout07,

I can understand the frustration. Take shortridge's advice. Ask the Lodge advisor to ask the SE to an Exec. Meeting and have him inform the membership on the changes and why the changes. Yes, this probably should have been his first step toward change instead of the last step.

I understand your passion. I was a member of the ceremony team in my old Lodge back in the 70's. We held tapouts on Wednesday. Ordeal was held every weekend, starting on Friday night and ending on Saturday. They are still doing that.

Advantages:

1)Yes it gets more Scouts through as soon as they are tapped out.

2)Yes it may boost numbers, because they do Ordeal immediately.

3) Doing Ordeal on Friday allows other Scouts to see their fellow Scouts giving cheerful service.

Drawbacks:

1)Someone needs to pick up the Scout, or stay around to give him a ride home if Ordeal is done over Fri. and Sat.

2)Now a days, Councils want everyone out of camp from noon Saturday until noon Sunday, including staff. Darned insurance companies.

3)Running out of projects for the candidates to do. Yea, right!!

The Council and Lodge that I am now involved with still run an awesome tapout ceremony on Wednesday evening. Wednesday is OA day in camp. We have baseball games, OA vs staff, Brotherhood every Wednesday afternoon, ice cream socials. Ordeal is run twice a year, once in mid August and in late May or the first weekend of June.

Advantages:

1) Larger workforce for big projects, setting up or tearing down camp.

2) Larger number of candidates.

3) Only two Ordeal ceremonies a year. I liked 6-8 a year.

4) Less time commitment for the ceremonialist. Hey, you guys have a lot more on your plate now then we did 30 years ago.

Drawbacks:

1) Less involvement and excitement over the summer for new tapouts. Now they have to wait, and can't get involved as quickly.

2) The apathy sets in. "Do I really want to do this now".

3) Candidates can't get to the Ordeal because of sports obligations.

4) They forget about Spring Ordeal and then something else conflicts with the date. I have had three Scouts, one each over the last three years never make Ordeal because of sports, plays, etc.

Lodge ceremony teams vs Chapter teams: It sounds like someone wants to compete, and only wants a few people getting the parts down pat. our present Lodge has Chapter teams do tapouts at spring camporee. During summer-camp, it is a mix of people, whoever can get to camp. Our Council covers a very large geographical area of east central Ohio and the northen tip of W. Virginia. With gas prices the way they are, OA has been relying on OA camp staff members for Wed. nights. OA also does our Webelos Residence Camp Honors program every Tuesday and Friday evenings.

One reason our camp does not run Ordeal every weekend is that it would conflict with the Friday night Pipestone Camp Honors Program that is 83 years old, and draws Scouts from all over the US, Canada and Europe, a program that takes an additional 300 people other the staff every Friday to put on.

Both ways of running Ordeal have their advantages and disadvantages. I agree with you that it is probably better having one every weekend if the Lodge can handle it and not get burnt out, because you grab their attention fast and don't give it a chance to wane, get them involved in the Lodge faster and hold their interest, and get your Ordeal membership numbers up faster.

Good Luck

YIS

Eric P.

Bicentennial Eagle

Brotherhood '74

DAL_TX,

Go for it. My 21 y/o wanted to be an ASM when he turned 18. The younger Scouts associate better with him because he is younger and more energetic then us old geezers. The parents will get use to you. Some of the leaders, if it is your old Troop, hopefully will know you. Good luck.

Eric P.

ASM915

Ketchome,

I'm glad everything turned out okay.

I had to dodge a similar bullet at my EBOR back in the 70's. I lived on a dead end street about 50 yards long. One June evening, a couple of us neighborhood kids got together and decided to pull a harmless prank at the local elementary school. At the end of our street we had 4 stop signs, two on either side of the street (incase we converted to the British way of driving), and two dead end signs, one on each side of the street. We decided to take one of the stop signs and one of the dead end signs down from the opposite side of the street. We labeled them with the location that they were taken from so they could return to the proper location. The intersecting street was closed a block up for construction. We took one barracade that was two or three rows back, not at the front and marked it approporiately. We took everything down to the elememntary school. The barracade went up at the parking lot and the signs went up at the doors. Stupid harmless childhood pranks.

One of the Troop CM's lived on the intersecting street. At the EBOR, back then it was only Troop BOR's, he called me on the prank accusing me of stealing the signs to put in my bedroom, and causing future aciidents, not knowing that we had labeled them. Due to my stellar Scouting career to that point, and the CM, who lived at the intersection, when questioned about the intersection, had to agree that that were 4 stop signs and two dead end signs at the end of the street, the ones taken were inconspicuous and didn't interfere with the traffic and that he didn't know that they were labeled for return, the situation was palyed down by the EBOR and I received my Eagle.

Moral of the story:

I took some minor heat for a stupid prank and was awarded my Eagle.

He was talked with about checking into things a little more thoroughly before making accusations about what he felt was happening.

Today, I'm with packsaddle on taking the hardline approach on upholding the honor of the Eagle, and just not giving it to everyone who thinks that they should be awarded Eagle irregardless of their past. Stupid childhood mistakes and character flaws that they have corrected over three or four years are one thing. Habitual problems are another.(This message has been edited by ASM915)

jb,

I sent a PM to ilduncans asking him to contact you. He usually runs a thread about this a month before Memorial Day. He has information about how to order the stars from National's supply center. The starts come in pairs, one for each side of the flag.

Eric P

BW,

Thanks, I stand corrected. It states "... a male and female adult leader, both over 21 years of age, and one registered as a leader with the BSA..."

Should that be changed to "adult"? Who is the second adult leader supposed to be registered to?

Since the scenarios are being thrown out there, here's some more food for thought.

CURVEBALL #1

Then again, if "An adult male leader must be housed with and responsible for the male participants" and visa-verse for the females, where is the YP? Is he or she suppose to sleep in the same facilities (room as the youth)? Just because there are 3 or 4 youth in a room with one adult does not a predator stop.

CURVE BALL #2

I understand the proposed problem with having the spouse along as the second adult, registered or not. What about the SM or ASM father and the ASM son or fathers brother being the only two adults on a camp-out? Should there be worry here? One can cover for the others behavior just as well as the spouse. Nothing states that they prowl alone or that you can't have a husband/wife predator combo. It's happens in the real world.

jb47, my son has a similar situation. He's a 21y/o ASM. The bride to be (4 weeks away) just turned 20. She's a former Crew member and would like to join the new Crew forming in town for the remainder of her youth status. Oh, the rules that govern.

Dan,

We have a local personality that one week will say the same garbage as Savage, then the next week pull a 180. One week, there is no harm in letting gays join BSA, the next, gays shouldn't be allowed because they might be recruiting. Either way, he keeps everyone PO'ed and calling in.

It's good to here that you and your son have found the right Troop. Our Council camp staff have hired Daniel on for part of the last two summers. I've always informed them that when it is time for Dan to come home, let us know. It isn't a problem. Both years he made it 5-6 weeks. At least they, the camp staff were willing to give a SN Scout a chance at building his self-esteem.

Maybe Mr Savage should undergo an experiment. Dope him up enough that he comes across aphasic for a week. Then turn him loose on society and let him see how people treat him. Oops, sorry. That isn't to Scout-like. Maybe then he would be willing to be a poster-boy for the Disability Awareness MB.

FAT CHANCE!! Oops,!! Did it again. BP, forgive me.

ASM 59,

If the wife is a registered Scouter, then there shouldn't be a problem. If we are talking about a Crew, then I believe that they need 2 males and 2 females if it is a coed trip.

ASM 915

highcountry,

Didn't know we were in the same Troop.

We have had the same problems the last few years. The committee does a good job. The problem has been with the parents and last two SM's.

The present SM is to sports oriented. If the team has uniforms, they will wear them. If there is a coach training, he's there. Talk to him about making the Scouts wear their uniform and enforcing it, or get him to leader training, haven't seen it in a year and a half. Most camp-outs, onenighters due to sports conflict. The thing I love is that his own thirteen year old Scout is standing up to him telling him that he the son plans on toning down the sports because he plans on being more involved in Scouts.

When the SM before this one started missing meetings and dropped off the dace of the earth, one of the CM's, my son, a brand new ASM and myself held things together. Unfortunately I was unable to become SM at that time. When the position opens again, hopefully my son or myself will be in a position to step up.

Parents: sports, sports, sports.

It's only a cuddle bunny rabbit. Argh!!!

And for the hard core Pythons: Who was Sven, where was he from and what was his primary occupation, (not the part time job)?

We leave for camp Sunday. Our camp offers most of the Eagle required MB's except Hiking, Bicycling, Communications, and the Personals. The camp does run the Citizenship's and Emergency Preparedness at the same time in the afternoon. That way the Scouts can't opt to sit in a classroom all day.

And packsaddle, the rest of the wardrobe? Hopefully no Lion King boxers?

O_S

I almost forgot about that nickname. As you know, it's was one of the rainiest Junes on record. At least the camp roads are drying up nicely. I haven't had any trouble getting into the youngest staff campsite yet. Make a deal with you. You just let one storm a week come on up the valley and divert the rest across W. Va or Ky. and I'll send the ones from up north across to Pittsburgh. As I was coming home from the store about an hour ago, we had nice clear skies here, but you could see lightning to the east toward camp.

The youngest is on staff at 7R. 100 miles round trip twice a weekend just to get him there and back. And that doesn't include the occasional other trips out there and back for other things. The staff pranks are in full swing.

The Pipestone gang are having to car pool since some of them come from as far as Columbus and Cleveland every Friday night. So far the gas hasn't seemed to keep many Troops away so far.

So how are things west of Columbus?(This message has been edited by ASM915)

robvio,

Check out Buckeye Council's 7 Ranges Scout Reserve. It's a little farther the Ohio-Scouter's suggestion, about 45 minutes east of Canton Ohio. On your way out of camp, the Troop could stop at the Football Hall of Fame or the McKinley Museum and Monument They are both only 5 minutes out of the way, north of Rt 30 on Rt 77.

7R has OA tap-outs on Wed. night. On Friday, they run the Pipestone Camp Honors program,one of the oldest honors programs in the country, approximately 85 years old.

If you decide to come, the boys will need to bring a cubic foot of branches ranging in size no smaller then their little finger and no larger then their thumb and barkless, stacked and secured tightly with twine. The Pipestone staff will use it all that week for all the different ceremony fires on Friday night.

If there is any interest, PM me.

An old cadence from Manatoc, and probably many other camps was:

Boy Scout,

Boy Scout

Don't look down.

There aren't no Girls Scouts

On the Ground.

Sound Off!!

Of coures Camp Ledgewood (the Girl Scout camp) was about a rugged 2-3 mile hike from Camps Butler and Manatoc.