jps

Sorry, I hit the submit button twice.

JPS

Yes, I will pass him and any other scout, IF THEY MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. Yes, I will continue to work with them as long as they are willing and I will try to help them to become better swimmers.

AquatDir and Youngblood, my credentials and exerience know of what you speak and I share your concerns. AquatDir, if you run as a good of waterfront as you say, I admire you for it. You do not have any easy job.

However, go back to the rules. Strong manner is not the same as no goggles. Safety is and will always be a concern for me as well, but I do not share you opinions as to these devices compromising safety.

Spluttering and spitting and wiping eyes is an indication of not being a strong swimmer? So when the scout in front of me kicked me and I raised my head and wiped the tears from my nose and splutter, that's it they should have sent me to the shallow end. That would be which rule again? The sputtering or lifting the head clause?

FINA and USA SWIMMING do not consider noseplugs or googles or earplugs to be swimming aids in their rules for commpetitive swimming. That includes open water swimming. They consider devices that aid bounacy or forward propulsion to be aids.

JPS

Yes, I will pass him and any other scout, IF THEY MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. Yes, I will continue to work with them as long as they are willing and I will try to help them to become better swimmers.

AquatDir and Youngblood, my credentials and exerience know of what you speak and I share your concerns. AquatDir, if you run as a good of waterfront as you say, I admire you for it. You do not have any easy job.

However, go back to the rules. Strong manner is not the same as no goggles. Safety is and will always be a concern for me as well, but I do not share you opinions as to these devices compromising safety.

Spluttering and spitting and wiping eyes is an indication of not being a strong swimmer? So when the scout in front of me kicked me and I raised my head and wiped the tears from my nose and splutter, that's it they should have sent me to the shallow end. That would be which rule again? The sputtering or lifting the head clause?

FINA and USA SWIMMING do not consider noseplugs or googles or earplugs to be swimming aids in their rules for commpetitive swimming. That includes open water swimming. They consider devices that aid bounacy or forward propulsion to be aids.

JPS

Sager scout, good points. I have taken it further when possible, I ask the scouts to jump in the pool with a PFD on so they can see how it feels and why they need to fit it properly. Some of the same skills they need for some of the watercraft MB, but may not have been taught.

On the good ship JPS, the family does man overboard drills, abandon ship drills(no great height involved on this craft) and how to run the boat when Dad fell off drill. These are not scout activities, but mostly stuff that I think are important to know. Some of these things I found out how to do the hard way, but everyone involved in those incidents are still sworn to secrecy.

JPS

Youngblood, your right about the inflation. However, it would probably make it harder to actually inflate the clothes when wearing a PFD than without.

As to falling off the cruise ship..the fall would probably kill them which would make nose plugs and gogles moot.

Seriously,thanks for the input.

Just between you and me, I have doing drills in the pool with him that are subtly showing him that his nose plug is a hindrance. It is a process.

JPS

I agree with the logic of the swim aids and I agree that a swimmer who can pass with the aids can probably also pass without, I agree that he needs to learn to swim without, and I agree that he may panic the first time in the water without; but...

SHOW ME THE RULE THAT SAYS NO SWIM AIDS.

Youngblood, I have seen aquatic directors do as you have stated and have always thought it wrong. I agree that we need to insure the safety of the swimmers. This seems to be another one of those 'customized requirements'.

Hmm, maybe I will make it interesting for the aquatic staff this summer at camp. I will try to take the test with goggles on and see what happens, and then ask them to show me the rules.

JPS

A minor tempest in the pool

I am working with a scout who insists that he needs to wear a nose plug and goggles when swimming. (This is a work in progress, and I am quite aware that the goal is to not depend on these aids.)

However, several of my esteemed fellow scouters insist that the scout can not pass the swimmer test while wearing them. They refer to past experiences at summer camp, during which the testers told the scouts they can not wear goggles or noseplugs. I ask them to quote me chapter and verse of the requirements that states he can not wear the goggles and nose plug when taking the test.

Does anyone know of a specific reference?

Thanks,

JPS

We use the term loosely.

We us cabin camping as an opportunity: an opportunity to introduce those who have never enjoyed the beauty of the outdoors in winter and who may not see it otherwise, an opportunity to teach winter outdoor skills to those scouts who do not yet have the skills to camp outside during the winter and of course to have a great time.

It should be noted that some of the members of the troop opt to sleep outside in tents and that is great and guess what? It gives those who may not think it is possible to learn and see how it is done.

Cabin camping is like boating with motors ... a resource to use in delivering the promise of Scouting.

JPS

We usually just string a rope between bunk beds or the like. We have tied off to attachment points on the walls.

Think Clothesline.... Tell the Scouts what you want to accomplish and then let them loose with the resources avaiable.

BW, this could lead to an interesting camp gadget! Send us the pictures!

JPS

We do the the temp. wall. Remember the privacy wall is just that it need not reach to a 10 foot ceiling. Think about one of the Doris Day movies when they hung sheets to seperate the man from the woman at nite.

As Bobwhite said, follow the rules, it is alot easier to setup a temporary wall than to try and straigthen out a situation that may arise if you didn't follow the rules. Just think what you would say to someone who asked you why you didn't follow the rules.

JPS

Tips for scouts

Here in the midwest winter camping tends to be wet and cold.

1.) What do you tell the scouts to wear for pants? Most of them do not have technical clothing and jeans are a horrible choice, but what they usually wear.

2.) How do you dry your clothing at nite when tent camping in the winter. Hanging in the tent does not work and you certainly can not put them on or under your bag.

JPS

Looking for some suggestions for a whitewater outing for Boy Scout Troop that is located in South Suburbs of Chicago.

Alternately, looking for a canoeing/camping outing suggestion.

Thanks for your help.

JPS

Thank you all for your input and suggestions. This board is truly a valuable resource for information and feedback.

JPS

Some points of clarification:

Most youth have multiple interests. Being a Scout does not preclude playing competitive sports, or going to social events. Opting to attend an alternate activity in lieu of a scouting activity is not always failing to honor a committment.

When a scouter become involved with scouting with his child or in any other acitivity, there may be a time when the youth does not wish to participate in a specific activity,for whatever reason, leaving the adult to either honor his committment and not spend time with his child or to excuse himself from his committment.

An example: Summer camp is planned for, and you tell the Comm. that you will be part of the adult staff that is going on the outing. Prior to the response date for the youth, your child is given an opportunity to do some other unexpected activity during that same week. Let's say he drops time and is awarded a spot to represent his team at a one week swim meet that is going to be the same week that summer camp is scheduled for.

Scouter dilema, go to camp or see your son swim in a once in a lifetime experience.

JPS

Well, there certainly are some interesting ideas to my original posting and I thank you. The posting is going in a different direction so let me throw some not uncommon situations:

1. Dad/Mom is going on a scout function and their son/daughter says, "I would really rather go to soccer, swim meet, school dance, etc. and I would like you to be with me." Now you have commmitted yourself to be somewhere other than your child and your child would rather be and your child wuld like you to be with them. So where does that put you.

2. Scouters that I have know, have children who have dropped out of Scouting, at an early age. The Scouters question whether they should have paid closer attention to their own child's progress and less to other people's children and would it have made a differenc in keeping up their enthusiasm for Scouting.

Thanks for your thoughts.

JPS

I am interesting in hearing how some of the more seasoned Scouters balance their role in Scouting with their role with their son.

I find myself wondering if I should spend more time mentoring and encouraging my son through the program and less time helping other boys through the program.

JPS

I would like to have some of the older scouts in our troop explore kayaking. One of the options I would like to present to them is building their own kayaks.

I have heard that Roy Underhill has some good plans for a cheap kayak, but that the result is a rather heavy boat. Anyone try it?

Has anyone actually built a kayak with scouts and has some advice? References and resources?

Yes, I know that I can buy a kit, but it might be hard to convince them to spend the money and time to build some of those beautiful boats.

Thanks,

JPS

Scouters,

The only good snipe hunt is the one in the fall with a good dog.

The snipe hunts and wild goose chases that are being referred to are nothing more than hazing. It was hazing 30 years ago and it is still hazing. (I must admit that I have been on both sides of the hazing and laughed as hard as anyone else, but I have changed and so has the world around us.)

Placing Scouts in a situation that exploits their errors or ignorance to the delight of others is hazing.

This is not part of the promise that we as Scouters make to the program and the Scouts. I suggest that if you wish to encourage the Scouts to grow andd become young men of character, you create positive learning experiences for them and have fun. There are many program sources that can provide you with examples.

JPS

Has any Lifesaving MB couselor ever seen a written statement clarifying the requirement to swim continous 400 yards.

Common sense and experience say that there is a substantial difference between swimming 400 yards and turning and pushing off a wall in a pool and swimming 400 yards without touching the wall (circluar) or open water.

I know how it is done at camps and I know how I have seen it done and done, but have never seen anything in writing.

Just trying to be consistent and fair.

JPS

I strongly agree about the Kankakee River. It has been at flood stage most of the week with high flows. Remember that high flows can make a nice river very nasty real quick.

Suggest the following links:

Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page which is good for guides and coordinates of dams etc. (note reference to the accidents on the Kankakee at flood.)

http://pages.ripco.net/~jwn/canoe.html

JPS

and for flows and levels

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lot/ahps/

The Scout is Muslim and follows his religion's diet. I inquired last year as to how this the oldest camp in the country dealt with this issue in the past and as I said in my intial posting, they only other time they have dealt with it is when units such as one that observes Kosher camps as an outpost. In those instances the units usualy bring their own food and cook it themselves on the trail or in their campsite.

Remember that this is not just an issue of getting the Scout fed. We want this Scout to enjoy the dining hall fellowship with us.

This is not an ADA issue.

A Scouter last summer who was on a heart healthy diet and brought some food with him to supplement/substititue the dining hall food was told that there was no room to store his food in the dinin hall fridge.(It was one standard grocery bag.) So storage is an issue.

JPS

We have a Scout in our Troop who observes very specific dietary restricions. We would like him to go to summer camp with the Troop, but we have yet to figure a way that he can observe his diet.

The camp has suggested that he bring and cook his own food. This suggestions has some obvious shortcomings not the least being that the camp will not allow him to store his food in their refrigerators nor cook in their kitchen.

They claim that normally this is not an issue as scouts with this type of restriction come to camp in a common group and camp remotely or take trips where they do their own cooking, etc.

I understand the camp's dilemma with mass feeding, common kitchens, 'where do we stop, etc.' and limited storage, but that still leaves the issue unsolved at this point

Anyone every develop a clever solution to this type of challenge?

JPS

Ozemu, very good post, put things in the proper perspective.

Jim