johndaigler

My 13 year old went. After a day or two he learned there were patch traders and patch Pirates. I'd rather planners prevent him having to learn that lesson the hard way, but, c'est la vie.

He seemed to handle it OK, though the lack of PODs frustrated him and cost him hours on the couple of days he wanted the patch. Why not just make them participants patches? You do some themed activity that day and you get that patch. And if you visit the merit badge midway you get that participation patch.

Getting sets of the PODs out through scoutstuff is a good solution - after the fact. Hopefully, they'll have a new plan for 2013.

Welcome Radio,

The fact that you wanted to ask the question and found a great place to ask it speaks wonderfully of you!

It seems like you have a good handle on this and have already read several good paths toward the future.

Emb021 and BadenP, seems like you guys are arguing the spirit vs letter of the law. Obviously, you're going to find it hard to reach closure. Isn't it obvious? The rule is clear, but will be enacted at the unit level so it's going to be handled differently by individual groups.

My inclination would be to try to get it to work for the young adults involved, while maintaining the credibility of the Crew and protection of the minors in the crew. I see the gray area, though, and once you go gray, each incident becomes a decision to be made. Just following the rules is easier on a group's integrity and "safer".

I don't think Embo21 is wrong, though that rule seems intended to be used more practically as BadenP sees it.

bakerjw,

For "official" documentation, you really don't need to look beyond page 6 in the Wolf Handbook (I use the '03 edition). The section entitled "The Arrow Point Trail" clearly separates Achievements from Electives. They're defined differently, and given discrete purposes. Additionally, they're described as being parts of different "Trails" (Wolf and Arrow Point).

I know there are Packs that stretch and interpret the lack of specific denial of "Achiements = Electives" (in order to award additional arrow points?). I don't honestly see how you can read that as the intent of the handbook's program, but it seems like a small issue.

If your pack wants to do it that way, fine -- just two thoughts:

a)your entire pack should agree and act as if this is Pack policy - it's not a decision for an individual wolf DL to make for one year, and

b)don't sweat trying to convince others this is really the way the program works - it isn't. But, it's a small change your pack is making, and it may motivate your Cubs to learn something new. How can that be bad?

c)IMHO, Your CPD should know better.

d)Is Cubtrax "official"?

jd

If you ship books to Roger through the US Postal Service remember to ask for the "book rate" -- a less expensive post, for books, CDs, etc. Each box is limited to 15 lbs.

jd

Again, Thank You for your efforts, Roger.

Wish your Mom Well for us!

If anyone's council uses the "participation segment" program for use with the red vests -- use the "book" segment as a thank you/recognition of particpation for a book drive.

FYI, it's not just "books" that is being overlooked with these poor kids.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/04/25/katrina.schildren.ap/index.html

jd

My apologies if I've muddied the waters with my June 1 comment. It's a standing policy with my council and I never thought to research it for accuracy (trusting the Service Center . . . Hmmmmm ...). Anyway, I can't find any documentation for the specific date, though my guess is that ScoutNut has explained my Council's policy. BTW, our Pack awards Bobcat in November. Another problem that I can't convince others of, . . . but perhaps this new June 1, 2006 policy will change our patterns a bit.

jd

SpongeBob,

WELCOME!!!

Bobcat requirements are in the Tiger handbook so that your boys can practice -- they cannot officially earn Bobcat until June 1 as they enter their Wolf year.

OF COURSE, on this particular upcoming June 1 that will change and the new Tigers can earn Bobcat immediately, just like your new Wolves.

jd

I'm with Kahuna.

The only thing I'd add is that it's very easy to help others make you look foolish -- especially for large organizations that achieve ICON status >> BSA, MLB, NFL, RNC, Fortune 100 companies, etc.. BSA did just that. It's not helpful when the only BSA participation in the program was a written "no comment" that had a vocabulary error (mistaking "respectively" for "respectfully") and charging $150 for the use of a BSA photo of Mr. Shields (assuming P/T are telling the truth about the fee.)

On the whole, a serious non-event with more cursing than you'd hear in the Varsity Football Team's locker room.

jd

Thanks for the heads up, Merlyn.

I'll definitely be taping it. I think getting defensive about it, before it even airs, shows a bit of shortsightedness on our part.

True, Penn and Teller are terribly irreverent concerning their program topics, but I haven't seen them lie yet -- though I've only seen a few shows. Many Americans are uncomfortable with our organizational stances -- it won't take much work on Penn and Teller's part to separate our present from our past -- in the eyes of their typical viewing audience.

I guess, the important questions are:

Does it matter or is their audience already convinced of their negative impression of BSA?

Is the truth enough, or will P+T go over the top in their traditional approach to humor, magic and challenging cultural icons?

Can we learn something from the show?

Others?

jd

Well played, Trev!

Eamonn, the notebook style CD holder works well for organization, saves TONS of space, is more portable, and looks better if they have to be stored in view. Even better, for functional CDs like training, etc. buy packs of CD pages (4 or 8 CDs to the page) that can be put in all your training ringbinders - so the CD is stored with the associated print material.

jd

Some day, in years to come, you will be wrestling with the great temptation, or trembling under the great sorrow of your life. But the real struggle is here, now, in these quiet weeks. Now it is being decided whether, in the day of your supreme sorrow or temptation, you shall miserably fail or gloriously conquer. Character cannot be made except by a steady, long continued process.

- Phillips Brooks

. . . second printing of 2005 C S Leader Book . . .

... either that, or a very helpful Frontiersman is pulling my Illini leg all the way to Oklahoma ...

jd

LyndaJ, I agree with your thinking. How does a Scouter go about getting MB regs changed. I'm not a bug person, nor a designer of MBs -- there might be a reason for this activity being part of the requirements.

jd

Again, I'd encourage the parents and Cubs to show growth. There really isn't a limit per se - so your "only twice" limit is arbitrary (even thought I get the thinking behind it). Adding "show growth" is arbitrary, as well, I'll admit, but I hope you can see some advantages and the motivation for parents and kids to stretch their efforts.

A parent who wants to count the reading elective each night is just missing the whole point of the elective program and needs to be spoken with now so their behavior improves before they get to the other ranks. Besides, you won't discourage their reading - it's required for school. Hopefully, you'll discourage the parents from award hoarding.

jd

Beagle Scout,

WELCOME!!!

Thanks for the heads up! It always cracks me up that we get the info here at Scouter before the crowd at the Service Center and the Training Committee . . .

jd

Hey, Eamonn,

By changing roles, you've left a hole. They can't (read that: "aren't willing to") fill the hole, so they blame you for it being there.

Seems fairly typical for a variety of organizations -- especially volunteer-based groups. Don't lose sleep over it -- and try not to share their angst. This is definitely their problem, not yours. Worry about SWMBO's problems -- THOSE are yours!!!

Sounds like the ship is going gang-bustas -- Congratulations!!! (Which by the way should be the only word coming out of your DE and DVC's mouths -- with the possible exception of "THANK YOU!") As a Cub Scouter, I particularly appreciate your global view that includes the LBMs (little blue men)!!! Don't be slow to expand that connection -- Packs truly benefit from (need!) experienced Scouters helping to light the path.

Sorry I'm a bit late, but, HAPPY ST. PATRICKS DAY!!

jd

Tmonahan,

Welcome!

I cannot find a limit to Electives Earned for any Cub level, but there are only 50 Electives listed in the Tiger handbook. 100 seems like a lot to me, but Cubs are allowed credit for repeating Electives.

It's not stated specifically in the Tiger book, but it is mentioned in the other handbooks that repeated Electives are acceptable when the Cub shows growth with that activity -- building a more complicated model; or adding paint to the next one; or perhaps including a background scene.

Repeating the same task at the same level isn't, IMHO, worthy of an additional Elective point, but as I say I can't find that specifically for the Tigers. As always, the standard of execution should be the Cub doing his best.

jd

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Roger,

Here's another avenue that might be of help. . .

http://bookbank.firstbook.org/nbb/get/nbbhome-ver2.asp

jd

The will of the people is important when it comes to the selection of leadership (though, even there, it isn't the only tool) but is, truly, only one factor in the legislation and governance of any democracy -- particularly a representative one such as ours. History shows the majority isn't trustworthy enough to be the final arbiter of law. Christian Nation? I don't think there's a very large number of Americans who would like to see the USA be a Democratic Theocracy.

I think the trouble is in using the label (gee, that's surprising, jd! ). If the question is about Christianity and the governing of a nation, it seems to be a dead end where an individual's personal faith holds the trump card. But if the question is abortion, or states' rights, or polygamy, or religious symbols on govt. buildings, etc., then we're all better served by leaving the capitalized labels on the side and discussing the issues on their social merits. Without the labels it's harder to "confuse dissent with disloyalty" and differences in morality with immorality. Without the labels it's harder to justify that letting others make life choices somehow minimizes and legally damages our lives.

Without the labels we can get past the murky history of which values/laws are steeped in Christian faith (or any other faith), or borrowed by the Christians but steeped elsewhere, or . . . I think the original point always gets lost -- metaphorically, the story becomes Fred Phelps and Patriot Guard Riders rather than about American men and boys dieing in the desert and whether they should be in harm's way.

Rooster, I agree with >>Per your example, I do not believe a ban on homosexual marriages violates any protected right provided by the Constitution. >> but, I think the same argument could be used in favor of gay marriage legislation. . . or polygamy, or even abortion, since the Feds don't grant "citizenship rights" at the moment of conception.

jd

BelieveinScouts,

WELCOME!!

Lot's of great advice above, so I'll try not to repeat anything -- I just want to point out that it IS great advice and worth following!!

Some random thoughts:

You won't have to pay too much atttention to the Pack's monthly themes, but you should be expected to give a short demonstration at each Pack Meeting focused on one of the activity pins you worked on that month.

Set the best example for the younger Cubs!

Check out YMCA for Aquanaut.

Read, then re-read your Webelos Scout Handbook -- If you know it well, you'll be better prepared to plan activities.

Starting with next year's school calendar, plan according to ALL the seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter, School, Vacation, Hunting, BnG, Sports, Popcorn, Holiday, Travel, PWD, Standardized testing, etc.

Earn Forester, Naturalist, and Outdoorsman and you're only a sevice project away from the World Conservation Award.

Jiffy Lube, etc. for oil changes and auto service activities for Handyman.

IMHO, "purpose" is more fun, than "fun" is purposeful. Just about every activity you plan can be Requirement-oriented. The boys don't usually know the difference anyway. Choose games/fun that help earn "Sportsman" or "Artist", etc. Use Gathering Time before each meeting to investigate new belt loops that help meet pin requirements. You don't always have to be 'on-task', but if you plan it that way from the start you'll find more time as you go along that is less stressful and freed up for classic Scout games and just plain fun.

Don't plan to "Do" one activity pin at a time. Plan good, fun, interesting activities - these will mix requirements from several activity pins. The Outdoor-ish activity pins' requirements are no-brainers for campouts, and traditionally we throw in a little Citizenship, a few Sportsman games, and, hopefully, a tad of Showman, -- but you can add other fun/purposeful activities by planning the overnighter for a particular activity pin. No one says you can't go on an "artist" overnighter! Or, alternatively, just do one "Artist" activity on each of your several overnighters. Either way, the boys have purposeful fun and you see those Requirements tumble like dominos.

Get your boys to read the handbook -- particularly the activity pin section you're about to investigate. Believe me, Scientist is much more fun if the boy's have already seen/heard the names Bernoulli, Pascal and Newton. They don't need to be sciencegeeks, and they probably don't need extra homework . . . but if you can show them how "Being Prepared" leads to additional fun and more success, it's a life lesson that's worth the effort. AND, I'm sure, they're all supposed to read 20 minutes or so each night. Each activity pin section in the handbook is 10-20 pages and perfect for a night or two of reading once a month or so.

Make a comprehensive plan, if you plan month by month you'll force yourself into a "pin by pin" plan and you'll waste a lot of opportunities - thereby carrying your stress longer than you need to.

Plan with someone else - an ADL, or just someone who is willing to read the handbook then spend a morning or two with you and your materials and calendars spread all over the kitchen table.

Don't forget to schedule time and activities for the Webelos and AoL requirements that are additional to the activity pins.

Have fun! One of the great parts about this Scouting stuff is all the different things YOU'LL learn!! Show your boys that you welcome that challenge and expect them to do the same!

jd

Roger,

We're putting together a local unit effort but it will be weeks before you get our books.

In the meantime, here's an "out of the box" suggestion. I'm sure you've heard of Scholastic Book Club (and it's competitors -- Troll, etc.) I don't know if they've put together any effort yet, but perhaps (with a little nudge) they can put together a simple plan where teachers across the country can donate their Club Points for books to be sent to LA - maybe directly to the State Board of Ed or more locally to schools, etc. Might be worth a phone call or two . . .

To every one else, we can each contact our local schools and create a similar push on a local level. There're millions of these book club points sitting out there looking for a purpose.

jd

Bobanon, WELCOME!!!

IMHO, Eamonn is worth listening to.

This is an area where various Scouters hold terribly passionate beliefs - some of them, seemingly contradictory. I think the simpler we keep it the better. Take a look at an adult app. -- if you can sign it, you are welcome (officially, that is).

On a practical level, for better or worse, many Scouters will welcome you and never ask/think about your faith.

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

great answer, funscout. It's completely up to the individual Cub family. Now, I've heard that might change, but . . .

jd

HI, funscout,

I'm not sure about the family selling after the program is over. Seems inappropriate -- certainly the popcorn is not intended to be resold once it has been sold to parents, etc. I'm just not sure if it's a big deal. To be honest, once those parents pay for it, I might be of the opinion that it's their problem, not the Pack's.

As far as whether the popcorn is sold by the Cub or the family, that definitely is a non-issue. This particular amount seems tremendous, but after you get past the dollar figure, this (parent involvement, not parent reselling) is how the program is intended to work. The Council fully expects parents to be integral to the success of the program -- their marketing materials make that very clear.

When we give prizes to the Cubs for selling PC, they might be better motivators if they were family-aimed prizes. They certainly would be more truthfully awarded.

jd

PWD -- Not your father's Oldsmobile!! (at least, it's not supposed to be! )