John-in-KC

A couple of comments ... First, to my way of thinking, Scout camp must cover its costs. It does not have to make money, but it has to cover costs. I've done weekend volunteer maintenance work at my council camp for the past three years. There is always work to be done. Water mains break. Water plants fall out of environmental compliance. Boats need inspections; outboard and inboard engines need service (pre and post-season). The docks have to come in at our camp (the lake is a Corps of Engineers facility; they demand it). Kitchens have to meet health code, as do the food stora

What Sue, Ed and Lisa said (on the serious side). What Lisa said about the coffee (on the humorous side). John A Good Old Owl

Recreational Equipment Incorporated is always a good source of stuff. www.rei.com Good gear is a blessing. I've also given my son his red Scout jacket. Last year, his grandparents gave him his Venturing uniform (less the gray pants; we found equivalent from Columbia for less than half the price). For two years from now, the OA Trail Crew trek is a great Philmont expedition and service project, and the price cannot be beat!!! If he's into cooking, camp cookery gear ... and real lessons in cooking. I'm still amazed Cooking was dropped from the Eagle list all those years

Has this CM even thought about the cost difference between 4 days/3 nights at the Council Webelos Camp compared to taking youth (and sufficient leaders) to NM from FL???? By the way, this trip proposal is certainly long enough to demand a National Tour Permit! I would ask, in Pack Committee, for how he plans to execute this trip, and how he plans to meet National TP standards. If you get "deer in headlights" stare, I would run, not walk, to the unit commissioner, Chartered Organization Representative, and District Executive. Some training and education are obviously in order. (Thi

From a practical point of view: The Council holds the liability insurance policy, and they are going to be the ones issuing the Tour Permit for you to have a week-long camp. National Camp Standards don't necessarily apply, but your Council may (and probably will) insist on key adult training ... particularly if the Council is opening up the Ranges, the Pool, and the Lakefront. Whether they accept that through the various trainings, or demand your adults attend National Camp School, is their call. From my observation post, I would want: - My Rangemaster(s) to meet G2SS standard

This goes back to the ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF SCOUTING: We are here to provide the AIMS OF SCOUTING across our major programs to American young people: Character Development Citizenship Training Personal Fitness The outdoor program is the TOOL WE USE to deliver the training. It's a METHOD, no more, no less. From my perspective, leadership is a skill that is fundamental to two of our three Aims, and supportive of the third. John A good old Owl (C-40-05)

Seconding Sue!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO IT!!!!

To my 1KB of flesh-and-blood RAM, fundraising does NOT rise to the level of a service project. Cannot talk to the Girl Scout unit. I've not even tried to understand their organization and structure. As far as the troop goes, I'd have a talk with the CC and SM. If they are unwilling to back away from unit fundraising as service, I'd ask son if he wants to find a new troop. If he so chooses, and when you do find a new troop, I'd finally drop a friendly word with the Chartered Org Rep and the Executive Officer of the Chartered Partner.

Lisa, Thanks for starting this thread. You've touched one of my buttons; I think how we train to serve the youth of the Scouting program is vital. My bottom lines up front are: - We need Scouters to be around for the right reasons ... help raise up moral and ethical young folk to adulthood using an outdoors based program. - We have too many Scouters who enter the system with a "less than desirable" outdoor and/or citizenship/ethics skillset. - We need BSA to package an overall training program which provides not just introductions, but depth and breadth in ALL its s

Kevin M, As points of reference, what Kevin Carlyle refers to as "The Point" and "She-she-be" are places at the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation by Osceola, MO: The Point is a rock outcropping overlooking a goodly portion of Truman Lake. She-She-Be is a council ring used for mentorship of Scouts entering or advancing in the MOS program. At Bartle, it is adjacent to the Point. There is also a She-She-Be ring at the Geiger Reservation in St Joseph, MO (Pony Express Council camp and the other home of MOS). HTH. YIS

I just talked with my Council Professional who is the specialist for Ventruing in the Field Service department: - A member of a Venturing Crew (or a Scouter on a Crew charter) is a member of BSA. He or she has access to the full range of BSA programs as appropriate to age and gender. - A member of an Exploring Post, or an adult on the post charter, IS NOT a member of BSA. They are members of Learning for Life. Unless the youth is also a member of a BSA unit, he or she does not have access to BSA programs. Frankly, I'd encourage choosing a Venturing Crew over LFL and a Post.

I've been contemplating the balance of leadership and outdoors training in the Scouting program for some time now. We need to look at American society these days: Largely urban, outdoor skills are no longer part of the "due course" training a child receives growing up. Look back to the Depression generation: It was truly the last generation where outdoor experience was inherent to the upbringing. Look at (for some of us) our own Boomer generation: Dad had been in WWII or Korea, and helped teach us our skills. We also had nuclear families far longer in our youth. Now,

To Mike Barnhill, You need to read Advancement, BSA #33215, for the current calendar year!!! To your specific question, Scoutldr quoted the BSA Swim test. Complete the test. The operative word is "swimmer." Not beginner (red by buddy tag system), not non-swimmer (white by buddy tag system), SWIMMER. To Sue M the Beaver! Advancement #33215 has the procedure list in exquisite detail for a special needs Scout who has to replace swimming with a different physical activity. For an unofficial looksee at the list, see: http://www.meritbadge.com/adv/t21-alt.htm Shor

AMEN!!! That goes for council job apps, physicals, in fact, just about every list imaginable.

If we did not have bleachers at our Council ring, we would be unable to accommodate all the youth and adults who want to attend ceremonies, supporting the various candidates. Youth members especially should get the reinforcement of seeing the ceremonies several times over. Of course, I often get a different perspective on the "ethic" of an Arrowman when I see a different (either by new blood in our own C-team, or by seeing another Council's team) C-team doing a ceremony.

Mr PE, I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree with you. First, Cub Scouting is the fertile soil from which Boy Scouts (and Arrowmen) grow. 8-10 year olds like seeing older teen boys doing cool things. For our program purposes, that means Boy Scouts! Second, OA is the honor camping society of the Boy Scouting program. Over the years, Cub Scouting has increased the camping available to it. In my Council, we have Family Camping for the entry level Bears (2 day, 1 night, 1 parent/1 youth resident camp program chock full of activities); 2 years of 4 day/3 night Webelos campi

This is a two edged sword. On one hand, with a few years of fieldcraft from both Scouting and Uncle under my belt, I found the outdoor leader trainings I've attended to be "pro forma" or check-a-block. On a different hand, I recognize there is only so much that can be done in a weekend. Even so, there are a lot of great "trainers" who don't know squat about the skills they are teaching. Sooo... as a Roundtable staffer, I'm always looking for technical points of view we can bring in ... In spite of everything, we find our annual critique sheets asking for more equipment an

I have to agree with anarchist. If an ASM is unwilling to follow the lead of THE PROGRAM OFFICER (Scoutmaster), then he is a hindrance, rather than a help. The CC and the SM need to work off the same page: Do the actions of the other adults in this unit SERVE THE SCOUTS?

I agree with most everything Lisabob has said above. We keep forgetting why we decide to invest in Scouting instead of Rotary, Kiwanis, or Masonic. WE CHOOOSE TO SERVE OUR YOUTH!!! When we lose persepctive on that, then it's harder to justify the investment and the effort ... and we lose the adults. As someone else said, many adults cycle through the program because their youth is around, but they're not making a life choice of Scouting as a corner of their lives.

Yes, "stump the chumps" (err, Council Executive Board members) was rather fun, since we had a couple of places where they were flat out wrong. I think that's part of the fun of WB: There is so much to Scouting that one cannot know it all, and when you bring together a bunch of us, we all learn together.

Ahhh. Now the light blinks on. I think Lisabob hit the nail on the head. Given the time we received the game (about 8:30 PM Saturday of weekend 1), our minds were stretched and we were slowing down a tad. A quality explanation of the Dilemma afterwards would have been a help. I do have one question for the group: Is "Scouting Jeopardy" a piece of the Curriculum, or is it something my local staff thought up on their own. It was fun, and it promoted intr-patrol teamwork. John A Good Old Owl...

Long Haul, I think we're pretty close to violent agreement. Do the youth come home from a campout SAFE, HEALTHY, and HAVING LEARNED A LESSON OR TWO? Those are the big ticket items I expect leaders to handle. Was the supper "yucky" because they did something really dumb with the mac and cheese? That's a youth responsibility. Depending on the availability of older (14-17) youth, the adults may end up drawing out the LESSON though. Time to get kid to music lesson. Chauffeurs are us!

From the Guide to Safe Scouting (regrettably, this is not the best available one at scouting.org, I cannot get there at the moment): From the MANDATORY POLICY (boldface) guidance: Qualified Supervision All swimming activity must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in his or her care, who is experienced in the water and confident of his or her ability to respond in the event of an emergency, and who is trained in and committed to compliance with the ei

Some thoughts here: There are definitely places to "win" and "lose:" WAR is one. Nation-states fates hang on winning or losing wars. Athletics is another. Most games have scoring systems. The premise I understand of "The Game with a Purpose" is Scouting is a PROCESS, not a series of EVENTS. I want the youth to learn from every experience he has, whether it's successfully pitching his tent the first time, cooking his own kebab over the fire, doing the bowline, or selling someone on an Eagle Leadership Service Project. I'm also, by training and profession, a soldier: While

Two tricks of the trade I've used as a CC: First, I never tell a Scout he's failed his BOR. If it's that obvious something is awry, I shift the discussion to "being prepared" ... and then I ask if we honestly need to adjourn the Board for a time (a day, a week, two weeks)... Second, if the BOR is going South, I have put the board in to "Executive Session" and gotten ahold of the parent. Sometimes, talking 1 on 3 with grownups can just be intimidating. Other times, the Scout may be tired out from other activities, and his mind has clicked off. Either way, the Board needs feedback