jmwalston

I would have to say Karnak was right. 7 years is the amount of time for those presently registered in Scouting to age out.

"We could throw money at the problem!"

How will this help? You apparently are under the impression that this solution hasn't been tried before. The U.S. government has spent billions on social programs and can't eradicate it. Money doesn't overcome the mindset.

"We did get one great kid who really enjoyed it. The problem was that most of his African American friends really made fun of him for being a Scout."

A big part of Scouting is acceptance and friendship. The example above shows you how the mindset came defeat the program regardless of the money available.

In the case of my post, which apparently raise some ire, all the Scouts in the Troop are former Webelos. The Den Chiefs attached to the Webelos dens of the feeder packs work with the Den Leaders on making sure all Webelos have completed Whittlin' Chip, even if already taken previously.

We have it in are area (District). It is hard to get a grasp on the program. It was started with through the auspices of a prominent Hispanic spokesperson in our community. But apparently, there is only a desire to do the soccer part, not incorporate any Cub Scouting into the program. Our DE has mentioned that there is a marked indifference to push the Cub Scouting angle.

I just came back from the National Scout Shop near my Council. There are only canvas switchbacks presently in stock. This shop is attached to the National warehouse in Charlotte, NC. If it doesn't have it, they aren't out there. Looked over the shirts, if you are a Commissioner who has the Arrowhead Award, get long-sleeves. All the short-sleeve shirts, regardless of size, have the shoulder pocket attached just above the sleeve cuff. No room for the award unless it is sewn on top of the cuff. The staff at the shop were wearing the uniform, doesn't look that good after any activity in it. The shirt seems awkward as the pockets are sewn a little higher on the chest. Attaching Vasity, Venture, or Interpreter strips will be interesting also. The belt, what can I say? One thing that is dead-on great! The recommendation of the staff for sewing on the POR patch is take it to a seamstress if you want to use the pocket, OR, by the badge magic. Guess if I get a new shirt, I'll have to have someone sew on the patch.

I must say I'm not sure on my feelings regarding the new uniform. I've seen several posts in this forum about how good it actually looks, that it is very similar to the older one being replaced, etc. But every picture I've seen of it on the Scout Stuff site is pretty bad. And what is up with the weird Zoolander BSA image? All the boys wearing the uniform look like they've just walked down a modeling runway and given the audience the "look." Then when you click on the ordering site, the uniform really looks like a poorly fitted item. The Webelos switchbacks also look like the older shade of olive.

"If you think all your kids can hang for 17 miles, and you think it will add significant value towards the Cycling Pin, go for it. Are your kids conditioned such that a 17 mile ride isn't going to have parents reaching for the muscle ointment the next couple days?"

Good question. Next one would be are the adults conditioned for the ride? I have noticed on some campouts that the Cubs have reserves of energy the adults are lacking.

"THIS JUST IN

Posted yesterday by jmwalston:

"I thought Whittlin' Chip taught proper use and safety of a pocket knife. Totin' Chip taught proper use and safety of a bow saw, hatchet, and ax. In the Troop I work with, Scouts must have Whittlin' Chip to use or carry a pocket knife on outings."

Refutation:

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/totin.aspx

Key sentences from the website:

2 Demonstrate proper handling, care, and use of the pocket knife, ax, and saw.

3 Use knife, ax, and saw as tools, not playthings."

John,

1. For the record, I had posted it today.

2. There is no refutation in the sense you state. http://scoutleaderawards.com/advance/cubscout/whittlingchip.asp

3. Totin' Chip is about woodtools, to include the pocket knife.

4. There is no urban legend here, this is this particular Troop's policy. Not what they heard.

I thought Whittlin' Chip taught proper use and safety of a pocket knife. Totin' Chip taught proper use and safety of a bow saw, hatchet, and ax. In the Troop I work with, Scouts must have Whittlin' Chip to use or carry a pocket knife on outings. Troop works on Totin' Chip yearly. We don't cut corners on cards, SM has offenders spend a couple of hours on camp service clearing underbrush on trails.

"I'm working on getting the patrols to utilize skills in their games. But a patrol would rather play basketball than bring the material to splint 8 arms. "Steal the Bacon" takes no planning, having a contest involving lashings does. When I try to steer them to something than might require a little effort I get cries of "I thought we were boy led!""

If that is their choice, then so be it. However, as noted, they are not checking off advancement requirements, therefore they will not advance. Only applies to 2nd Class and Tenderfoot trying to advance, what about the others? Have your SM Conference with those. Still falls on deaf ears? Well, they will hit the wall when they try to put together their Eagle Service Project, you know, the one requiring leadership. Remember, a Scout advances at his own rate. If you have some go-getter Scouts who want to do Scouting, let them get together and form their own Patrol.

"I'm not sure how they can do this. They can't retest them. The book is signed off. I know the Advancement Guidebook and the Committee Guidebook both discuss that the board determines if the scout is ready to advance, but it does not tell how to do this or give specific reasons not to pass a scout. I really don't know how you would do this for Star or Life. Most of these skills are T-2-1 or in a Merit Badge that is even more inviolate. The scout may have received it at a MB mill, but you are stuck with it as far as I can tell."

True, so take the MB Mill out of the equation. A Scout has to come to you for the blue card. Coming back from somewhere with MBs that you can verify are not completed? Tell the Advancement Chair of our Troop Committee. There has to be a signature confirming Advancement reports to Council. Two for BoRs advancement. Get your Committee behind you. Let them know what's going on in the Troop.

Trev,

That doesn't guarantee anything. Even the Amish let their children reflect and make a life choice when they reach adulthood. And did you know that the Klan charges dues to be a member? Hate ain't alway free.

"I agree, but that assumes that the Scout learned the skill in the first place. What I'm trying to say is I have Life Scouts who cannot build a fire, bandage a sprained ankle or stop an arterial bleed. Someone signed them off on all of these things. I can't take their T-2-1 away from them and I can't stop them from earning their Eagle. But it would be irresponsible for me to allow them to sign off other scouts on S2d-f, S6a and F8b. I can provide them an opportunity to learn these skills and create a culture were these skills are regularly used. Making sure that PLs know these skills is only a step in the process of getting to were the troop needs to be."

OK, this is something entirely different. I assume that you inherited this position. You are right to provide them an opportunity to learn the skills, but they have to want to do it. If you start putting limitations out there, it is no longer a boy-led unit. Let them set up new patrols. The higher rank boys will probably gravitate toward their own patrol. The other boys should form ones they are comfortable with. If you have Star and Life Scouts who can't do the basics, I hope that they haven't completed their First Aid and Camping MBs. Otherwise, you are stuck with a problem that is hard to rectify. Of course, the BoR should be able to see Scouts lacking these abilities are not prepared for advancement. Call BoRs for these Scouts. Go back to the basics for all your Scouts. Talk to your PLC about intrapatrol competion (knot tying rescue relays, first aid bandaging relays, etc.) and offer a prize for winners.

Can't say it makes them "regressive." Just proactive in their child's (children's) exposures. You can teach equality, you can teach morality, you can teach tolerance. You can demonstrate them repeatedly. But ultimately, the child will decide what he/she will accept as their personal standards.

There is actually a MacLaren sett for a kilt.

http://stores.channeladvisor.com/Stillwater-Kilts/Items/swk-sk-ml?&caSKU=swk-sk-ml&caTitle=Men's%20SWK%20Standard%20Kilt-%20MacLaren%20Tartan%20W/%20FREE%20Flashes!

"What message? That you should know a skill if you want to test people on it. I'm not sure how that is bad. Looking over the Patrol Leader Handbook I see that the Patrol Leader is to "Encourage patrol members to complete their own advancement requirements". What I don't find is anything stating or implying that they would be testing the members in the patrol. Of the four steps of advancement Learning is primarily the PLC's responsibility (either within the patrol or as a troop), Testing is the Scoutmaster's, Review is the committee's and Recognition it the troop's. I will not preventing anyone who shows himself to be proficient at a skill from testing that skill. All he needs to do is show me what he knows."

You do not let your patrol leaders train and check off advancement? The SM/ASM Specifics training has video modules showing just that scenario. It's part of boy-led/boy-enpowered. The message I felt you sent with your suggested set-up was that a Patrol could have a PL who had no authority because he was considered lacking in credentials. Patrol members taught by him had to have advancement approved by others.

"Of the four steps of advancement Learning is primarily the PLC's responsibility (either within the patrol or as a troop), Testing is the Scoutmaster's, Review is the committee's and Recognition it the troop's. I will not preventing anyone who shows himself to be proficient at a skill from testing that skill. All he needs to do is show me what he knows."

Are you the sole decider of advancement completion for your troop? Do you make the Scout do the requirement again? And please, don't interpret this as condensending, because I am not phrasing it in that manner. It just seems that you've added a step in the advancement procedure by assuming the "testing" phase. Page 124 of the SM Handbook says, "Scouts in regular patrols and Venture patrols might be tested by adult troop leaders or by their own patrol leaders, troop guides, or another junior leader (i.e. SPL, ASPL, Instructors, JASM, etc.), provided that the boy leader has already earned the rank the Scout is aiming for." It also states in the next paragraph, "Completing a requirement is often more a checkoff process than a formal examination." Let the boys do this. This is part of their growth cycle in Scouting.

If you choose who can be SPL (the SPL chooses his ASPL), then it isn't a boy-led troop. You are determining who can and can not be a leader, not the boys. If it is a matter of experience and training determining who can be elected, then it comes down to who gets the training. Just because you are trained doesn't mean you are the best for the job. Experience isn't necessarily an indicator either. Otherwise, Barak Obama would be the wrong candidate for the DP.

If a Patrol elects a PL who you determine isn't qualified to check off on rank requirements, then how is the Patrol method going to be applied? You have effectively removed the PL's ability to lead and train his patrol. What message is being sent?

A bad SPL? It happens. If we (the People) elect a poor President, do we not correct it when re-election comes around? How will boys learn from their mistakes to make good judgement calls if we only give them a "winning" slate to choose from?

Change the PLC meetings. They currently meet for an hour before the committee meetings, which forces them to finish in an hour. "I'd like to move the meeting to a different night, start with a half hour "Greenbar Patrol" meeting to help teach them how to conduct patrol meetings and to give them a way to try out new games and ways to teaching skills. Then allow them to have their hour planning for the month ahead."

That sounds reasonable, it will also let the boys have time to pause and reflect.

"Have the PLC plan the month using the Troop Program Features. I suggested this to them last year, but it feel on deaf ears. I really think this would make their life easier (the ideas are there, they just need to pick and implement) and the program better."

Great idea, but... Boy-led troop, let them decide. Sometimes they will play devil's advocate simply because it looks like too much adult planning involved. Let them know they are available if they come up with something they want to do, but aren't sure how to do it.

"Troop campouts. Spread them out. I'm not sure that 100 yards is practical (I figure that would require about 14 acres for the troop) but at least 100 yards from the trailer. The more they have to carry over a longer distant the more they will prioritize what they need. Discourage the use of stoves except were LNT or fire restrictions require them. The campout must include some skill related activity, a hike with map and compass, pioneering project, collecting plant samples, etc."

Good idea, or they will make several trips. Probably want credit for hiking too. I do work with a Troop whose SM makes them cook at least one meal during the day in a Dutch Oven, their choice which meal.

"Only allow fully trained ASMs or scout leaders who have gone though the extended TLT training (so I know they have the skills themselves) sign off on skill requirements."

Bad idea. It is adding a requirement to rank.

"Finally, no more SPL or ASPLs who phone it in. If they are too busy with football, track, band, swimming, or the school musical to be at every event then they don't need to be in those positions. Let their football, track, band, etc. coaches and teachers let them out of those activities if they want to do both."

Bad idea. Same reason as above. And it means that it is no longer a boy-led troop.

Just my thoughts. Let the boys decide their leaders. If it doesn't work, then the boys will have learned a lesson.

"So I have eared in my program in developing a SPL with a strong sense of the patrol method. No amount of death by power point, SPL manual reviews, one-on-ones will change this scout's opinion that the Patrol method is a flawed method. He is a transferred scout who entered my program 8 months ago as a tenderfoot at age 14 with no PL or POR experience. I am tempted to ask for a contact at his old unit to see if they actually did disband the patrol method."

He must have been a heck of a popular Scout to get elected SPL. Point out to him that boy-led is an inclusive term, meaning all the boys, not just one. Don't the other patrol leaders have an input? Or is he just chairing the PLC meeting and then going with his decision?

Pack 212,

The Bobcat before any rank requirement was instituted this past year. It wouldn't be in an older addition Tiger Cub book.

Oooooh! Or we could bring back the olive gaiters to wear over boots with them!

jet526, I really like the kilt. They even have in a close shade of olive.

I have to disagree, Brotherhood. To begin with the statement that maybe the handbook is in error is odd. To contact National because you want a concise, exact ruling sounds more like you want the OA sash to take precedence. It is an honor society, but the handbook is clear, the sash is worn when representing the OA for special services. A special service at a troop function would be, IMO, a call out or when asked to tell the troop about the OA and its services. I always assumed we wore flaps when active, and the dangle to denote membership, whether active or otherwise.

"For Arrowmen to be wearing their OA sash makes the statement, IMHO, that there is something special about these Scouts."

Wrong. It means that their troop thought very highly of them and honored them with selection. It does not imply elitism, which this statement does.

IMHO

"My son wore his first six merit badges on his sleeve."

As did mine. Then again, not a lot of Scouts have long sleeve shirts in the South.

"I didnt think there was such a thing as a Venturing Roundtable, A Venturing Forum perhaps but a rose by any other name..."

I wasn't aware they were called Venturing Forums. In my District, they are referred to as Venturing Roundtable. They do meet on a separate night and at a separate location from the Cub and Boy Scout Roundtable.

The knots that may be worn on a Scout's uniform are, I believe, the Youth Religious Program knot, the Honor Medal knot, the Medal of Heroism knot, the Medal of Merit knot, the Hornaday Medal knot, the Venturing Silver Award knot, the Venturing Leadership Award knot, and the James E. West Fellowship knot.

I am not sure about the Quartermaster knot and the OA Distinguished Service Award knot.