HiLo

Six suitable people to walk in off the street saying they want to be leaders with us.

I'm being a bit greedy asking for six, but this is wishing.

I think Lisabob has it pretty right there. Sexual activity on Scout camps is unacceptable. Rape or sexual assault is unacceptable anywhere. Putting women in the military hasn't caused the problem there. Without women in the ranks, armies just had camp followers, a long tradition dating back at least as far as the Romans. Also very common was raping and pillaging the defeated enemy's property (because women were often seen as just another form of property)

While obviously the definition of the term morally straight is part of the problem in this discussion, it would never allow for unwanted sexual advances.

I remember watching that show on our black and white tele as a kid. And now you're telling me it wasn't real. Oh dear. Another piece of my childhood destroyed.

GaHillBilly - I really don't appreciate the "utter nonsense" accusation.

Let's test you. You're on a camp with Scouting adults you haven't met before. You're sharing a tent with a guy who turns out to be gay (despite the fact that he shouldn't be in Scouts).

He propositions you.

Do you instantly say yes? Of course not.

Yet you seem to think that putting a gay boy with a non gay boy somehow means instant sex.

I don't understand your position. (It's late in the year and it's the big holidays coming up in these parts. I know I'm a bit tired and in need of a break, so excuse me if I'm totally misunderstanding you.)

Thanks for the update Pint. Good to hear it's working.

I'm excited to have a young girl Cub with us now whose mum was one of the first Australian girl Cubs, in the same Cub Pack! Mum is a very active and helpful supporter who I hope to get back into uniform herself within 18 months. Wish me luck.

It's simple. Underage sex with any gender combination is unacceptable in Scouting (as well as illegal). Putting a gay boy with a non-gay boy does not make it any more likely. In patrol tents, no two boys (gay or otherwise) are going to play up with all the others watching. Or, if they do, the secret won't last long.

Scouts can be on Google Maps. I'm Group Leader (means "head honcho", or "the person they think will do everything") for a Scout Group in Australia. Can't remember how I did it, but if you go to Google Maps and type in "Mooroolbark Scout", it should show you where our Scout hall is, plus a contact phone number.

I think it works in Google Earth too, but I don't have that where I am right now.

So if you're nerdily inclined, put your Scouts on Google Maps!

Yes. Let's not cloud the discussion. Just as homosexuality does not equal pedophilia, it also doesn't equal rampant sexual activity on Scout camps.

Neither of those last two activities are welcome in Scouting

For Australian uniforms you could check out my own state's website and browse the galleries - www.vicscouts.asn.au

A quick link to some folks in uniform is....

https://www.vicscouts.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=211&Itemid=101

(Although they don't show the uniform much, I reckon the four pics on that vicscouts home page above epitomise Scouting.)

The issue is not whether individual Scouts are nerdy, but whether Scouting is seen by non-Scouts as nerdy. In the social bullying that always goes on to some degree among teenagers, I reckon Scouting has been picked on as being nerdy since the 1960s. Doesn't mean it IS nerdy, but that's the peer level criticism.

I think that a new, much less formal uniform introduced in Australia 6 years ago has gone a fair way towards reducing the stigma here.

I would like Mr Boyce to list the negative aspects of homosexuality. He thinks he knows them, and that we all know them, but downplay them. I'm sorry, but that's a nasty kind of writing.

I have no idea what he's talking about.

Now, that's not because I'm homosexual. I am boringly straight. As far as I know, everyone in my extended family is too. There is only one Scouting person out of many hundreds that I know who I think may be gay, but I'm not certain about that. He's never told me. It's not an issue. Based on statistical evidence, chances are there are others.

I don't see the gays who no doubt are in Scouting creating problems. So please tell me what those problems are.

Those arguing that nuclear is safe now are using a bit of tunnel vision. Yes, scientists may have developed safe ways of managing the waste and building the plants, but the plants are built by profit seeking business people and regulated by politicians. Sorry. I don't trust enough of them, especially over the time frames involved.

Just realised I ignored the one question from Oak Tree that's directly relevant to this thread - "Any particular rules for gay Scouts (I'm presuming not)."

That's exactly it. Being gay, or not, is not an issue. We don't ask. There is no legal requirement surrounding it.

Personally, I see homosexual activity, like heterosexual activity, as something for consenting adults in private. It has nothing to do with paedophilia. (Since I'm talking about Australia now, I'll use our spelling of that word.)

All adults in Scouting are required to go through extensive police checks for financial propriety and other legal aspects and, at least in my state, be registered in an active system of Working With Children cards where the "Employer", Scouting in this case, is advised as soon as any issue regarding child related offences arises. Schools and sporting clubs for juniors also require these cards.

Oak Tree

As I see it there are two key rules in the youth protection area in Australian Scouting. Firstly, no adult leader is ever allowed to be alone with a single youth member. Secondly, if another adult leader becomes aware of that first rule being breached and does not report the breach, that second adult is guilty of an equally serious breach of the rules.

As for tenting arrangements, there are actually no formal rules for keeping boys and girls separate, but it is the overwhelmingly common practice to do so. As others have written, exceptions occur where sleeping accommodation is limited. The commonly spoken understanding is that with multiple girls and multiple boys of the moral character we usually see in Scouting, it would be quite difficult for a single couple (of any gender mix) with naughty thoughts on their minds to get up to much mischief while all the others were around.

Potted history of girls in Australian Scouting: In 1972 a number of females attended a national Rover Moot as "Associated Ladies". The Rovers of Australia voted and decided at that event that they wanted girls admitted. It took around 3 years for that to gain national approval from Scouts' governing body. The trend spread downwards through the age groups until the first girl Cubs started around 1980. This happened in the area where I now live, and one of those girl Cubs is now the mother of one of our present girl Cubs, and a very active parent in supporting Scouting. I reckon I'll get her into uniform again as a leader within 18 months. That's my goal, anyway.

I suspect that the membership slump and recovery reflect several things. Scouts had become very introverted and nerdy looking to outsiders. We got some new chiefs at the top with better media and PR skills, a new uniform - dramatically different, some great TV ads, and some good PR around the centenary. No single negative, nor magic bullets. A lot of hard work was involved too.

Oak Tree, that's a fair call on those Australian membership numbers. You understandably used the first and last of those available annual reports and did the hard yards to create that table. I congratulate you.

My perspective came from less detail (now augmented because of your tips on where to get the numbers), and over the shorter period I've been paying attention. If you only go back three years there has been growth in that period. It wasn't too good before that though, was it?

In my own area we have had better growth than nationally. My own District and Group (not sure what that equates to in BSA) got awards for our growth achievements.

In addition, we all just got an email today from out national headquarters boasting of a 7.2% youth membership increase in the most recent twelve months. One thing I know is that turning membership number trends around can be a bit like turning an oil tanker. It takes a long time. So it's hard to truthfully know what is causing the movement in numbers. But we do allow females at every level, and no-one asks if you're gay.

I care. I am fascinated by trying to understand the complex and amazing character that was Baden Powell. He created a fantastic movement for kids. Even if he had never done that he would have been a major figure in British military history. Other recent publications show that he had what would now be seen as a very strange interest in the beauty of naked young males, that probably had nothing to do with homosexuality or pedophilia, but which was also something far less unusual and acceptable in its time.

So, I care, but I cannot condemn. I know so little detail that I cannot fairly judge. But it is interesting. Thank you Pint.

Don't blame the scientists. The saddest thing about the climate change discussions is that the economists and politicians have taken over the discussion from the scientists. The economists and politicians should stick to doing what they do well, managing the world's economy.

(In other forums where I play I have a terrific tongue-in-cheek emoticon I can use. I miss it here.)

Sorry about the cynicism.

A number of posts here have been of the form "We had a co-ed camp once, and the interactions between the boys and girls were quite a problem". However, if co-ed becomes the norm, it's no longer a novelty for the kids and the problems no longer exist.

I'm disappointed that so many problems are predicted while ignoring the fact that it seems to work successfully in so many places elsewhere in the world. I'd like to see a few more of those opposing the move discuss that aspect.

Three points....

1. Homosexuality is not pedophelia. Please don't mix up the two.

2. An adult of any gender having sexual relations with a youth member of any gender is unacceptable. This has to be a basic tenet of Scouting anywhere whether you accept gays or not.

3. In Australia, where girls and gays are welcome members, Scout membership is growing at a very healthy rate.

"Snake" and "I'll catch it!"

This was heard on a camp just last weekend.

Almost all snakes in these parts are poisonous.(This message has been edited by hilo)

Ozemu - that's not good news. You're in Qld somewhere if I remember rightly, but I can't remember exactly where. Is it a small town. Are the neighbours any help?

In my District we've gone through periods where leaders helped out at neighboring groups for a while, but only on a promise that some new parents would put their hands up to take over as soon as they could.

After a near death experience with my Group because of some unfriendly people who previously ran the place, things are now looking up. Tripled our membership from 10 a year and a half ago to around 30 now. New leader volounteers (who never knew the poisonous pair) coming out of the woodwork.

I still don't have a committee, but a Family Camp in May is planned to overcome that. No-one leaves until they volunteer for a job!

Good luck with the battle.

OldGreyEagle wrote "When I see a person listed as being from "Gulf Coast" offering sympathy to another person who has suffered a natrual disaster, I get a deeper understanding of what is meant by the Brotherhood of Scouting".

I'm not sure where you're from Buffalo Skipper, but I had the great pleasure early last year of visiting Houston and Galveston. To see TV coverage a few months later of waves topping the 17 foot seawall at Galveston, and all that wind, helps put in perspective what we're doing when we're teaching kids skills to use in the great outdoors.

There's a lot of luck in surviving natural disasters, but often too, and certainly with our bushfires, Being Prepared helps a fair bit too. (I'm sure I've herd that term somewhere else!) I have a feeling that this, along with the common sense we hope Scouting people have, had something to do with perhaps a lower proportion of them being hurt in the fires than the general public.

To add some more of my personal experiences......

The fires came to within five miles of my place. Don't know if any of you live in eucalypt tree areas (I know we've kindly exported them to parts of the US), but a big part of the risk is what's called spotting, when flaming leaves and embers get carried by the wind miles ahead of the fire front, to start new fires a long way from the fire fighting effort. We did get dead embers fall here, but nothing worse. It was pretty scary.

As well as the 115 degrees on February 7th, we had winds of over 50 miles per hour and, for the meteorologically inclined, a relative humidity of 6%. That's very, very dry!

The hard bit after February 7th (the worst day) was that the fires didn't go out. Human effort is never enough alone to put them out. We need nature's help. For the year up to March 4th we had only 0.15 of an inch of rain. Then it started to rain a bit. It's safe now, but we spent a month not knowing what might happen next. It's a bit of a clich, but I think I now have some understanding of what it's like being in a war zone. The constant uncontrollable threat.

I work in a high school with 600 kids. The effect of that month on those kids was obvious. School was closed completely on two separate days because it was deemed unsafe to run the buses. Attendance was dramatically affected, and we're still working hard to get the kids back into some sort of learning mode.

February is normally a popular time for Scout camps here, but they just couldn't happen. Big catch ups planned now.

We're all working on getting life back to normal. It's what you do.

Thanks for all the offers of help. Not sure how that could work. Just offering is great, and probably enough!(This message has been edited by hilo)

Another Australian perspective....

Every three years there is an Australian Jamboree somewhere around the country. At every Australian Jamboree there is an American contingent, so some of your boys do get over here and presumably achieve quite a lot! No idea if merit badges are involved.

As for Tim Tams moxieman, it's often a bit hot!

That was the temperature on February 7th where I live near Melbourne, Australia.

Many of you probably heard about our bushfires. (Wildfires to Americans?) This is a bit of my story and a bit of the impact on Scouting. I hope you don't mind me posting this, but it's probably now around the time when the stories will start being written down properly, rather than in the sensational, brief style so loved by the media.

It appears that around 210 people have been killed in the most deadly fires to ever happen in Australia. We don't yet have official details of all the deaths, but inevitably there will be some Scouting people. Certainly many people in Scouting knew people who are now no longer with us. None of my immediate contacts were directly harmed.

Some entire towns were virtually destroyed, so inevitably quite a few Scout Halls have been destroyed. Much of the area we go hiking, camping and skiing in has been burnt. Haven't had the chance to check it all out yet, and some areas are still closed to visitors because officials have still been looking for bodies, and many of the buildings destroyed contained large amounts of asbestos.

Naturally Scouts became heavily involved in the relief effort, collecting donations of goods and money, and sorting and delivering those donations. Many offers have also been made to help in the rebuilding efforts. My own efforts will be mostly at one of my favourite winter venues, the Lake Mountain cross country ski resort. As a ski tour leader I often take Scouting groups there in winter. All but one of the buildings was destroyed there, but the survivor was the main centre of activities. The toilet block has gone, leading several old timers to suggest that well just have to revert to behind a tree. Some of our lady friends arent so sure!

Theres a lot more to tell, but that will do for starters.

I'll just say again that in Australia there is no separate activity uniform. There is only one uniform. No Class A and Class B.