HiLo

brodiew - Fatality statistics are not the point. Brain injury is. My wife works with adults with acquired brain injury disabilities. Some from snow sports. I have met many of her clients. Very sad.

I imagine you will be renting most of your equipment. Many resorts I know have a package deal that includes helmets. Cost should therefore not be an issue.

With many teenagers (and, I know, some adults), thinking that the safety equipment looks uncool can be an issue. That's where the wearing of helmets by the very best comes in. If you wanted to sell it on that basis, it should be easy, especially with snowboarders.

I'm wondering where the real opposition is coming from. You, or the kids? What is their opinion?

PS: Not spouting BSA policy here. Not an American. I have no idea what BSA policy is. I'm spouting 40 years in snow sport.

If helmets don't work at higher speeds, why do Olympic skiers wear them?

And it not the hardness or otherwise of the snow that's the problem. It's trees, snow making machinery, snowmobiles, lift towers, even sit skis, etc. that kill people.

Oh, and you're taking teenage boys to the snow and telling me they're not interested in speed? Really?(This message has been edited by hilo)

A very large amount of innuendo can be packed into a few totally honest statements.

GaHillBilly - your opinion of gay people is blatantly obvious. I humbly submit THAT'S what's on display here for all to see. It would probably be better for you and everybody else if you did openly say what it was, in a simple sentence or two.

Skeptic - as I understand it, BSA does have rules about gay people, at least in adult rules. Scouts Australia doesn't.

So, while it may be normal to not ask in BSA, it's still against the rules, so if someone makes a fuss about their gay preferences it's understandable that BSA has to take a stand.

In Australia, we don't just not ask. It's not against the rules. So there is no trigger within Scouting for gay people to want to make a fuss. I've never heard of a gay person using Scouting as a platform to argue gay rights. There would be no point.

We are strongly discouraged from getting involved in political issues while obviously representing Scouting, such as being in Scout uniform. If someone attended a gay rights rally in Scout uniform, firstly it would be rather weird, but secondly I suspect that someone at District level may have a quiet word in that person's ear. No automatic censure though.(This message has been edited by hilo)

I doubt if you're ever going to find the double blind scientific study anywhere that will effectivley answer that question in advance. It does end up coming down to beliefs.

I'm sorry, but this has really gone too far. I have not been strongly presenting my own personal views here, but describing how another Scouting body, another country, handles under age sex issues. That you insist on repeatedly turning this into an "I hate homos" discussion, filled with innuendo that I personally somehow condone and encourage homosexual behaviour with and between kids, is just plain insulting, both at a personal and national level.

I have to finally say that I find your ignorance, unwillingness to try to understand and, I finally must say it, bigotry, extremely offensive.

Good night.

vol_scouter had a bit of a go at me with.... "HiLo has said that no records have been kept (or at least made available) so his experience is not even truly anecdotal but rather speculative." (He's talking about the Australian experience.)

Let me just swing that emphasis back where I believe it belongs. Homosexuality is simply not seen as an issue for Australian Scouting. So we don't ask people if they are gay, or heterosexual, or anything else. So we don't officially know. Obviously there are times when an adult makes their sexual inclinations apparent. I know of two great lesbian Cub Leaders. But that didn't have to declare that on any form.

There are tough youth protection policies. A homosexual act between an adult and a youth would be an obvious breach of those rules. So would a heterosexual act. THAT is where the legislative emphasis lies. Not on the hetero- or homo- aspect of the problem, if and when it occurs. These rules have been in place for around ten years now and I'm personally unaware of any incidents. I suspect there have been some, but they didn't make the news. The rules must be seen as OK because I've heard of no plans to change them.

So, the emphasis is - "no sex with kids" - not, "no gay sex". The fact that we have girls and boys at all levels of Scouting probably assists in that being the way it is.(This message has been edited by hilo)

Sorry for not explaining myself well enough. Obviously I can't know what every one of 10,000 Scouts is doing. But I do know that the issue of homosexuality, a big one for you and the BSA, is not an issue in Australian Scouting. We have no rules about it, and I'm aware of no incidents where it was a concern within the past 15 years.

Just like in the USA, there are very strong youth protection policies, such as no adult member ever being allowed to be alone with a single youth member. And if another adult member ever becomes aware of such an event happening, and does not report it, that adult member is equally guilty.

As I hinted above, our biggest image problems come from the occasional "I was molested by my scoutmaster 20 years ago" story.

Oh, well, since my word isn't good enough on its own, I simply recommend that you do some travelling and see for yourself. I can assure you that Scouting folk in Australia would welcome you in the enthusiastic and hospitable way I assume you would welcome a Scouting visitor from elsewhere.

If travel to here is a bit expensive, maybe try the UK, or even Canada.

But do have a look around. The world is a wonderful place, especially the Scouting part of it. We may have our cultural differences, but the things we share are amazing.

GaHillBilly - I notice you ignored my last post about what happens in Canada, Asutralia, Uk and the rest of Europe. Right now an Australian Scout Jamboree is underway. There are around 10,000 Scouts there. Around 3,000 are girls and, going by your figures, 200 of those present will be gay. Naturally we know which ones are girls, but we don't know which ones are gay.

This is not the first event of its kind. It won't be the last. I don't expect the media to mention rampant sexual activity there.

Ignoring the CO issue for the moment, why couldn't it work in the USA?

GaHillBilly says.... "You can't put sexually attracted people together in showers, beds or tents."

But that must happen all the time in Canada, UK, Australia, and most of Europe, because those Scouting organizations have no idea who's gay.

I understand the existence of moral issues, but logic makes that "practical" one a complete non-issue.

That reminds me. I must go tell my accountant to make sure he's being careful.

There's a politician in Australia who is the only member of parliament for his, obviously not mainstream, political party. He has more than once been accused of cultivating the media to publicise his "stunts". (I don't object to that in itself. After all, he's a pollie. They live on publicity.)

Recently he called a well known radio shock jock to declare that whilst a teenager he had been repeatedly sexually molested by his scoutmaster. And that's how it hit the headlines.

A day later, it turned out that the alleged molester was also a close family friend. Statistics show that the most frequent cases of pedophilia involve family members or close family friends, so that was really the significant factor, but it couldn't take away the harm already done to Scouting by the initial headline.

I actually wrote to this politician at his web site, pointing out the damage he had done, the more recent improvements in youth protection in Scouting, and suggested that he could come out in support of Scouting a little more. (It actually fits with his public position pretty well.) Is anyone surprised to know that I got no response at all?(This message has been edited by hilo)

From OGE.... "So your District, composed of volunteers, "fired" another volunteer because they didnt think he was good enough to be a volunteer, or at least to fill the position he was in?"

In simple terms, yes. Obviously it's a bit more complex than that, but I believe it's something that voluntary organizations have to be able to do. I've seen Scout Groups go to the wall because someone inappropriate was at the helm. Remembering that it's "for the kids", we have to take charge at times and get rid of the adults who aren't helping.

Yeah. The media loves this stuff. Must have been a shortage of priest stories lately.

But seriously, I'm confused about... "is facing statutory sodomy charges for allegedly having sex with children."

Surely the sex with children is enough of a charge. And pretty absolute in my mind.

While I personally find it distasteful, I understand some perfectly normal heterosexual people practice sodomy. Why is that part of the charge? Is there something about US law I don't understand?

GHillBilly says.... "Does this prove that it's imprudent -- at . this . time -- to bet trillions on AGW? Yes."

Yes, it's complicated alright. Trouble is, I'm not certain about betting trillions on it not happening. Is there any way we can have a bit each way?

(Note clever reference back to the last word in the Subject title!)(This message has been edited by HiLo)

OldGreyEagle asked: "So if a scoutmaster does not evaluate out well, then what happens?"

A leader's Certificate of Leadership can be suspended, or even revoked.

For most leaders, those sessions at District Personnel Committee tend to be a bit of a rubber stamp, a useful time to chat with people with another perspective. Generally, if there are issues of concern to his local Group, they would be raised with DPC members beforehand, so they could be looked into further.

One of the leaders in my Group had just such a thing happen to him recently. Young bloke, doing too many things in his life (study, work, etc), not progressing his Scouting training. He was told to sort things out in his life, and come back when he could make a definite commitment to his next training stage.(This message has been edited by hilo)

I know it's a bit chilly in much of the US right now, but Australia's Bureau of Meteorology (our national weather service) has just announced "...the average temperature in Australia over the past decade was 0.48 degrees above the 1961-1990 average. This continues a trend that has seen each decade since the 1940s being warmer than the previous decade."

That 0.48 degrees is Celsius. In Fahrenheit it was 0.86 degrees warmer.

I'm pretty sure that source can be trusted. Make of it what you will.

As well as a Scouter, I'm a high school teacher. (Yeah, I know, glutton for punishment.) Assessing teacher performance is big political issue here right now. The simpletons want to base assessment on measuring the simple things, like marks on statewide or national tests. I always respond that half of what we do can't be measured like that.

It's the same for Scouters. CA_Scouter - you've just been given top marks in one of the most important assessment areas, a kid's respect for an adult, and acceptance of that adult as one his guides in life.

Well done.

Yes. It's the only model I know. What happens in BSA?

In Australia there is no such thing as charters or charter organisations. (I'm assuming they're related. We don't use those words.) The community creates the Scout Group independent of any other organization except Scout administration.

An example - My Scout Group is about to celebrate it's 50th birthday. Trying to put together a history. We unearthed the minutes of the first committee meeting from 1960. It was a gathering of adults who wanted the town to have Scouts. It was held in someone's lounge room. Some volunteered to be leaders. Some to continue on committee, which has the fund raising role Someone donated land for a hall. For the first 10 years they used a community hall, then moved into their own, which had been built by volunteer labor, no doubt with lots of materials donated. No connection with a church or any other body outside Scouting.

It still happens pretty much that way for new Groups now.

There have been Scout Groups set up by churches. But always a minority. Now a very tiny minority.

Leaders used to have warrants. Now we have a Certificate of Youth Leadership. That is issued after all the usual youth protection and other checks, plus some formal training. That training is provided within Scouting, but is accredited at a national level as a proper certification, officially recognised outside Scouting. Apart from the obvious Scouting emphasis in ours, it is of equal value to similar training gained at a college outside Scouting. That has been a very positive step.

Part of a leader's initial assessment, and every three years after that, is review by District Personnel Committee, again volunteers at one level up from the local Group who monitor suitability and progress with training.

On Feb 7th last year the temperature in Melbourne reached 46.4 degrees C or 115.5 degrees F. Not nice.

Back to BSA..... Reflecting on all this, I think the most obvious thing that's special about BSA is the Chartering Organization thing, which allows other bodies to dictate policies to Scouting. Scouts attached to a church is very much a rarity. Nobody tells Scouts Australia what to do. The inevitable conservatism that comes from most of the COs being churches leads to the other major differences - no atheists, gays or girls.

Yeah, been a bit warmer than that here, sometimes recently. I'm near Melbourne where we get a lot of variety. Last week we had a day of 101 degrees F. (We use C here. It was 38.) But this morning when I got up it was 12 C, or 54 degrees F. I actually prefer the cool weather. Like to go skiing in winter. But it's never as cold here as I found in the US two years ago. (I did choose cold places!)

Eamonn's just reminded me.

Looking at BSA from the outside, I'm extremely jealous of Philmont.

Oh, and I meant to mention our promise. It's similar to the UK one, with two (and a half?) differences.

Instead of "do my duty to God", we have "do my duty to my God". Make of that what you will. Obviously it personalises it for the individual. Some have argued that it explicitly allows atheists to join by enabling them to say to themselves "I have no God, therefore I have no duty to do in that area". Buddhism is officially the second biggest religion in Australia, and there is no Buddhist supreme being equivalent to the Christian God, so it's nice to give that sector of our society a choice too.

The next part is a bit odd in that we give members a choice. It says that we do our duty "...to Australia" or "...to the Queen of Australia". Obviously we've Australianised it from the UK version, and we give people a choice of acknowledging that Queen Elisabeth is still our head of state, or not. It gives the nod to the fact that a fair few Australians would like to have an Australian head of state rather than Her Majesty.

Joeys, Cubs and the younger Scouts tend not to care much about that choice, and leaders tend to dictate which version is used, but older Scouts, Venturers, Rovers and leaders do make a choice.

Moving on, when I look at BSA from the outside, something that concerns me is the bit about being "morally straight". The word straight has become a much more loaded one since it was first put into the oath, and, for many, has gained an anti-gay meaning that it originally didn't have. That ambiguity is unhealthy. It allows some to use it as a tool for exclusion, rather than just being a guide to good living. It did not originally mean "not gay", and it would be wonderful if that word could now be replaced with something else closer to the original meaning.

Well, after that intro from Eammon, I'd better post something, hadn't I?

Yes, the Australian model is much closer to the UK model than the BSA. A few evolutionary changes over the past couple of decades, but nothing radical. Very few people are paid for what they do in Scouting. Some admin staff at state and national level, some camp wardens, and....I'm running out. Oh, there's a lady paid to do admin work for our region (one level below state). She is probably one of 15 in the whole country in that role. My state and national commissioners are both gentlemen who have retired from other careers, and now get their travel and accommodation expenses paid to do their hobby full time. No more payment than that.

Camps costs vary a lot. Sometimes almost nothing (just food and transport). Tops is a national Jamboree, held every three years. Just by chance, one happens to be starting this very day! (Sadly, I'm not there.) It costs the kids around $1400 all up. (That's Australian dollars.) Most troops do a lot of fund-raising activities in the time leading up to such events. That tends to build a stronger spirit among those going anyway. I get the impression that the self fund-raising thing might be a big difference. We can run a BBQ/sausage sizzle at our local mega-hardware store and make $1500 in a day. Many other options are used to raise funds.

My Scout Group - that means a collection of Venturers, Scouts, Cubs and Joeys (our version of Beavers) for one town - is lucky enough to have its own hall on land donated to the Scouts (and Girl Guides, but please don't tell them!) by a land developer 50 years ago. Those Groups who don't own a hall often use one provided by the local municipal council and pay a low, nominal yearly rental fee. Some share community facilities. Very few are connected with churches. But in that I think we're also touching on a fundamental societal difference between the USA and Australia. We just don't do religion like you Americans do.

Scouts Australia and its various sub-bodies own a lot of camp sites, or one can genuinely go bush and pay nothing. Dining huts? Never heard of them. (Well, they're pretty rare.)

So yes, it's different from the USA. But, I had the great pleasure of being in Yosemite National Park almost exactly two years ago, and saw some kids and adults in a uniform I recognised. Walked up and offered a left hand shake to one of the adults, explaining simply that I was a Scouter from Australia, and it was as if we had known each other for years. A lot to chat about. The physical environment obviously helped (Yosemite is wonderful), but I tell that story to emphasise that the common bonds are much stronger than the differences.(This message has been edited by HiLo)