HICO_Eagle

To be fair, scouters who've taken the Train the Trainer course seem to come back with better presentation skills. Before this course was widely available, some of those presentations were real sleepers.

You think so, huh?  I thought many of the presentations after Train the Trainer were even worse than the ones I had to endure from professional military education.

You mean like Green Bar Bill's WB syllabus?

 

Why does it seem like the folks at national want todo away with everything Bill did?

 

That was exactly what I meant.  I keep getting asked to take Wood Badge with an implication that it's "the thing" holding me back from a Silver Beaver nomination.  Two problems with that:

1.  I don't see that Wood Badge is anything other than a waste of time.  Nothing anyone has shown or told me has demonstrated it will be anything other than yet another repeat of the various leadership/management classes I've had since college.

2.  I really don't care about awards as an adult.  I'm in this to help the boys.  The best "award" I've ever gotten was meeting up with one of my former Scouts, finding out he is now a Scoutmaster, and that he models his program after what I did.

True, there are no take-backs but a Scout is honest.  This Scout wasn't.  That calls for a Scoutmaster Conference and a note to the committee for any future BOR.

What infuriated me the most about this is the way they have tried to sneak it by.  Announced on a Friday with the vote scheduled in 2 weeks while most units are busy camping.  This has got to be the most unScoutlike behavior I've ever seen from National and as far as I'm concerned, every member of the Committee and Board that chose to sneak this implementation through this way ought to be removed.  If you believe in your cause so much, why try to sneak it past with no time for reaction or comment?  My SE said he was told ONE HOUR before the public announcement was made.

Some of this is a return to how things were 20-30 years ago.  I don't mind that, in fact, I encourage it.  Frankly, I'd be happy to toss out all changes in the program over the past 20 years and reinvoke the few that were positive.  I don't understand people upset by Scout being a rank -- it's one the boys could earn at their first meeting and get a sense of accomplishment immediately.  I don't like the requirements being shifted from Tenderfoot to Scout precisely because they make it harder to do Scout-on-the-first-night/month.

 

I advised our new parents last night to photocopy or print the advancement pages from the new requirements and stick them in the books they just bought 3-6 months ago.  They can get a new book when it's published if they want and use the current book for reference when the boys go camping (tying a square knot or round lash hasn't changed in decades/centuries), keeping the new book at home and undamaged for recordkeeping and meetings.

Part of the problem Stosh is that many of the folks who preached tolerance really meant that everyone needed to accept THEIR point of view (and really beyond accept, EMBRACE).  They have no tolerance for dissenting points of view once they get into positions of power or control.

Is it just me or do those "tar heels" on those patches look like women's high heel shoes of the "Music Man" era?

 

My favorite council jamboree patches come from Iowa - home of Riverside, Iowa, which is, as anyone with any taste knows, is the birthplace of Captain James Tiberious Kirk.  

 

https://sites.google.com/site/2010nationalscoutjamboree/hawkeye-area-council

I like the fact they're using "NCC-1701, no bloody -A, -B, -C, or -D!"

 

I'd trade you a set of our Pikes Peak Council Stargate Jamboree patches for a set of those.

 

2010:

2013:

 

I have to check my inventory, think I only have the 2010s left for trading (I liked them best anyway).

Troops don't own packs.  IMO, one of the reasons Scouting is declining is that we don't encourage boys to find a troop that meets their particular needs or modus operandi.  Webelos crosses over the troop he has been told his den always goes to and then finds he doesn't like it -- maybe the Scoutmaster is old-school like me, maybe he's new school and the Webelos or his parents want old school, maybe the troop is too big or too small.  Not knowing any better, he probably quits Scouting altogether rather than figuring out there's another troop a mile or two away that he'd enjoy.

 

I tell boys (and their parents) who visit that we'd love to have them but to go look at 3 or 4 troops (or more) and get a feel for what each troop is like and how each troop fits in with what they want out of Scouting.  Inviting Webelos from another pack isn't raiding, it's giving the Webelos options to find the Scouting they want.  The troop that complained needs to 1) grow up and 2) think about what they're doing to service the Scouts.

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/149525-Big-Weekend-In-Colfax-County-Floods

 

 

We had what we call a significant flood event down here over the weekend. The news is covering the boy scout ranch and the kid that was killed in the flood. What they are not covering is that HWY 64 between Cimarron and Eagle Nest was closed all weekend from the same flood. Rockslides and overflows took out half the highway, complete sections were under flowing water. Several hundred folks were trapped in the state park and the village of Ute Park. This ontop of the flooding at Philmont that took out a huge amount of trails, cabins, equipment and displaced hundreds of boy scouts. Plus the secondary and tertiary SARs that took place throughout the weekend. I could go on, but you get the point.

 

We lost a kid, which words fail me even now. (I'm pissed, I'm heartbroken, I'm many things) On the good side, our other casualty figures are light. Some bumps and bruises, and emotinal trauma, but all survivable. Sadly the scouts that were swept away were camping well away from the river, in what can normally be considered a safe area. It just shows how this flood was signifigantly larger than anything we have experienced in our recorded history. We had a flood event in 1904 that was everything the equal of this, but most of the effected areas from this weekend were unoccupied back then, so data on what happened in those areas is nonexistant.

 

 

The high water mark at the campsite was 16 feet. Their tents were 60 feet from the normal stream side. If you do the math, you'll realize just how much water there was. Way outside the 100 year flood chance. At another camp, a 16x25 foot cabin was lifted and moved 20 feet. It was only 20 because it got wedged in between a large tree and a sunken propane tank. The single occupant gave a very interesting account. The devastation from this event is astounding.

 

I've also spoke with the staff at the camp with the fatality. Say what you want about the BSA and their recent policies, but those young men and women are prime examples of the caliber of individual that scouting can produce. Those college kid performed some amazing acts of heroism that saved dozens of lives at that and other camps during this flood. Many times I'm pretty pessimistic about the future, but those kids moved me to tears as I listened to their accounts of their actions.

 

FYSA.

I wouldn't ban or limit parents.  Heck, our problems are usually not having enough adults participate.  What I would do is make them understand any adults on the trip will effectively be an Old Goats patrol and adults will not work with their own children.

 

"You want to come along?  Great!  I've already got Bob set up to work with your boy so can you and Henry take Jimmy and Tommy and work with them on first aid?  Thanks alot!"

@@imachristian13 --

First off, sorry for the gender confusion.  For some reason, I thought you were the mother.  In any event, the words I see that keep coming through are "we worked to develop" and "they agreed to".  In other words, it wasn't their plan, it was yours.

 

What would I have done differently?  In your place, rather than develop plans that the SM/ASMs "agree to", I'd have asked how they thought it should be handled, what I could do to assist, and then follow up to get feedback as THEIR plans were tried out.  Perhaps they felt railroaded into agreeing to your plan, perhaps they're just jerks ... I don't know, I'm not a telepath.

 

Question:  how does the ASM/commissioner who is a family friend and whose son invited your son to the troop feel about this?  What did he see or hear?  I am somewhat incredulous that the ASMs didn't discuss the situation amongst themselves.  The SM/ASMs have discussed all sorts of things regarding troop operations in all three troops, all three councils that I've participated in as an adult Scouter.  Why didn't he perceive an issue earlier and tell you about it earlier or intervene to change their plans?

 

As I said, I think you'll be better off at another troop anyway, I am just leery about all the judgments and statements being passed with only having one side of the story.

This isn't new and it isn't related to the belt loop changes.

 

RichardB is correct about no unit-level shooting activities for Cubs.  No need to call National for clarification on this one.  The National Shooting Sports Manual (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/pdf/30931_WB.pdf) is quite explicit on page 42:

 

Cub Scout shooting sports programs may be conducted only on a district or council level. Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/ Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level.

 

 

All shooting ranges in the Cub Scout program must be supervised by a qualified range master who is at least 18 years of age and who meets the minimum requirements. See specific qualifications and training requirements for BB gun and archery range masters under “Shooting Sports Personnel Descriptions†in Chapter 1, and in Section V, “Archery and BB Guns.â€

 

As far as archery at a professional facility goes, the NSSM requires the following for "qualified range master" (page 10):

 

BSA Archery Range Master
• Eighteen years of age or older and trained by a National Camping School shooting sports director or USA Archery/NFAA Level 1 archery instructor to set up and operate a safe archery range for a Cub Scout or Boy Scout archery program according to BSA standards located in Section V of this manual, “Archery and BB Guns.â€
• Archery training must be renewed every two years, and this person must have a current Training Course Certificate, No. 33767.

 

As long as the professional facility has properly certified instructors (and I'd question their viability if they're running a facility without proper certifications), there is no problem here for Boy Scouts (again, no unit-level shooting for cubs).  Bad Wolf's shooting sports committee is wrong if they are allowing this for cubs but the reality is there are unlikely to be any repercussions as the chances of an accident at the professional facility are probably lower than at day camp.

 

To quote Willy Wonka, "It's all there! Black and white, clear as crystal!"  (Note:  To my knowledge, there is no Section 37B in the NSSM.) 

 

As far as Troop185's day camp experience goes, the NSSM actually changed this year to allow use of the magazine in BB guns (and .22s for Boy Scouts!) so they no longer have to fire BBs one at a time.  His council may be relying on the checklist for the Basic Shooting Activity for BB guns (starting on page 90) which has cubs loading BBs into chamber and therefore implies single-shot operation but page 86 says the following:

 

Scouts do not have to load one BB at a time and shoot before loading another BB. They can load at one time all the BBs they are given.

 

I know it says "Scouts" not "Cub Scouts" but the context of the entire page is about BB shooting for Cubs -- the only time we have Boy Scouts shoot BBs is when we have joint Boy Scout/Webelos activities and have to have all activities open to Webelos or in the cases where we are unable to use .22s or the air rifles we purchased from CMP (e.g., rifle merit badge classes at Bass Pro).

 

Our council still runs our cub shootarees in single shot mode for the safety of participants (and sanity of the range officers!) but we make extra effort to make the events fun and enjoyable.  All the cubs look like they're having fun and I've never received any complaints about shooting one BB at a time -- to the contrary, I still get comments from parents weeks and even months later about how much fun their boys had.

1.  I agree with the others that you should finish whatever rank you're working on and look at other troops for a transfer.  I always advocate Scouts look at multiple units before locking in to join one because every troop has its own personality.

 

2.  While you're considering other troops, you might want to reflect on whether you're missing anything that makes your troop seem like it's so adult-led.  Is the SPL competent and leading like he should?  When are the ASMs telling the boys to tuck their shirts in and pull their hands out of their pockets?  Is it during a ceremony when they're supposed to be respectful like flags at camp?  Is the SPL around when they're doing that?  I usually work through the SPL when I can and try to get the Scouts used to levels of leadership but realize they are still learning how to lead and in many cases, they are still learning to observe what they should even after a year of leadership.  Very very few people are born with an instinct toward leadership, most have to be molded.

 

3.  If these ASMs are so bad, why aren't other boys leaving the troop?  What makes you think other ASMs are afraid of being kicked out?  In every troop I've been in, the SM and ASMs talk to each other -- a LOT.  We talk about what's going on, what we've seen, who needs more development, etc.  I've never worried about being kicked out of the troop -- the SM couldn't do that on his own even if he wanted to (and if we weren't friends anyway).  As you look at other troops, you might want to ask the other boys in the troop why they stick around.

At risk of reviving a zombie thread, I finally made it all the way through all three threads.  I've seen a lot of people jumping off to pass judgment immediately based on a single point of view and one person observing that only one side of the story has been told.

 

I have no doubt imachristian13's son will be better off in another unit and I hope they've been able to find the right unit for him.  On the other hand, all of her posts convey (to me) a strong sense of "they (the troop) will change to accommodate my son" even when she says they agreed (at her insistence) to guidelines or rules about how or when to give up.  I have no doubt she was trying to be reasonable but as was pointed out earlier, they had no obligation to accommodate her or him.

 

I have no idea what motivated the ASMs in question to take the actions they did but I can think of analogous situations where I'd feel obliged to let a prospective future troop know what they were in for, not to blacklist the boy but to ensure the troop entered the relationship with full knowledge.  My troop has a "boy" with Asperger's who just made Eagle.  We're immensely proud of him and the progress he made in the troop but I can also say his first couple of years were very difficult.  His first year, he would literally explode unexpectedly, lashing out physically when he exceeded some unknown level of frustration.  After a week at summer camp where I found myself having to literally watch him 1-on-1 for the safety of other campers, we (the SM, all 3 ASMs, the TCC, and COR) had a meeting with his parents.  We recounted the difficulties at summer camp and other weekends and then told them we were NOT asking them to leave -- he was precisely the kind of boy who needed Scouting the most -- but advising them we might have to ask for more assistance from them in the future as it wasn't fair to the other boys to have half the adult leadership devoted to one boy.

 

He mellowed somewhat after 2-3 years and we breathed a sigh of relief until his youngest brother (with a milder case) lashed out at another Scout at summer camp.  He lashed out so quickly that I don't think it registered to him that he had an arrow in his hand (from Archery class) but the other Scout was lucky to have jumped away as quickly as he did and I think I was as pale as he was.  I separated them and walked off with the brother (in view of the rest of the troop so we were still IAW YPT) to let him talk about what was frustrating him.  Situation handled -- but it was not easy and we constantly had to think about the safety of and fairness to the rest of the troop.

 

We have yet another slightly autistic Scout in the troop who also just attained Eagle.  Never an issue of safety with him but again he would frequently monopolize the time and attention of the SM or ASMs and getting him through advancement and merit badges was a constant chore.  I'd have advocated for taking him on if he was transferring from another troop but I also would have appreciated the other troop telling us what we were in for as a heads up.  I'm not a telepath so I don't know if the ASMs in question were being mean and spiteful or trying to be considerate of other troops by giving them full knowledge of the difficulties they were about to take on.

 

I hope imachristian13 has found or quickly finds the right troop for her son and that he grows in Scouting as the boys in my troop have but I also think people need to be a little slower before passing judgment on the ASMs.

First, what are you intending Wood Badge to be?  Tell me that and I'll tell you what I think the course should encompass.

 

To answer the question myself, I'd prefer Wood Badge to be an advanced skills course instead of the poster child for ineffectual feel good "leadership" management philosophies.  Get rid of the "Game of Life" socially/politically-correct mumbo-jumbo and provide instuction on:

 

- advanced woodsmanship/Scout skills,

- Patrol Method and the G2SS,

 

It would also be nice if it covered

- secondary but important factors in running a troop (expenses, sources of income, CO relationship, etc.),

- what you have to do to affect policy or create change at the council and national levels (i.e., how we get rid of the stupidity that has crept into the program over the past 15-20 years).

A few hours are on teaching the EDGE method, but they have each participant bring something physical that they can do a demonstration on. You are not suppose to have your whole demonstration prepared and practiced though. Then after the instruction, they give you time to prep your presentation, you break down into small groups of about 6 people and you listen to each of your teams presentations and critique them afterwards.

.... and THIS is why I hated Trainer's EDGE when I took it. I can afford the course fee but I hate losing a whole Saturday to garbage like this when I don't need it. I would recommend the course highly to someone who has never trained or instructed kids before but it's just a little annoying after 20+ years of teaching Scouts.

Would you ever recommend to one of your youth to NOT go to NYLT because it would be a waste of their time? Basically it is the same material as WB. If you think it would benefit them, why do you doubt it would benefit you?

My Scouts haven't had 30 years of Scouting, 20+ years of military service plus associated "professional military education", numerous management and leadership courses, and Scoutmaster Fundamentals (which I also considered redundant and useless). They would benefit from NYLT, I would not.

I see having someone WB-"educated" is now a JTE requirement. Gre-e-e-e-eat ...

I'd rather get equipment that's good at what it does. For a portable stick-powered stove, I like the EmberLite or similar stoves. If I want to recharge my electronics, I have a 19W solar panel and 2 Li-Ion battery packs capable of storing 6600 mAh each -- more than enough for a weekend campout.

dedkad, I would agree with your son's SM that Boy Scouts are a time to get a little separation but it doesn't mean complete separation. I suspect what he's trying to do is cut out the helicopter parents but every troop I know needs SOME help from parents, whether it's sitting on boards of review, organizing fundraisers, or helping Scouts plan activities. That may mean you're less involved or less busy than you thought you'd be -- if so, you can still help that Pack connect with the Charter Troop and make sure the liaison job is transferred in a way that lasts past next summer.

When scouts is no longer supporting solid family values, and they cave on what they have stood for, for over a hundred years, that will be a sad day... You can call it not discriminating, but the supreme court said it's well within their rights as a private organization.

 

I like my sons statement best.... "Dad, I bet Lord Baden Powell would be really ticked off right now".

 

I say fire Ernst & Young and AT&T from the board and reaffirm their stand....

However the vote goes, I would definitely be on board with telling the CEOs of AT&T and Ernst & Young to get lost.

That piece of propaganda is actually pretty well known and it was a setup. The attackers knew who was "armed" and where he was sitting before the scenario began. The students were purposely chosen to be unfamiliar with handling their firearms and they weren't trained properly before the scenario began.

So I'm glad to see RichardB here and that there is an effort from National to keep tabs on discussions here because I was afraid they were cut off in their own little insular worlds. For what it's worth, I detest most of the changes I've seen coming out of National over the past 10 years.

 

I find the G2SS to be more of a hindrance and symptom of legalistic or nanny society than a help toward building Men for the 21st century. I follow it because I have to but don't take my acquiescence as a sign of approval. Additional required "training" hasn't added one iota to my ability to train and mold boys although it HAS taken up time and caused consternation when my newly graduated Eagle Scout ASMs were suddenly considered "not trained" (implying they were incompetent) for not taking courses designed to replicate material they'd mastered years ago -- and yes, MOST 19-22 year olds I know have MUCH better things to spend $15 and a weekend on.

 

I found the press for the Visine (Centennial) uniform incomprehensible with all the other challenges we have. Aspects of the design like the cargo pockets were great but the only times I've ever heard a question from Scouts about green vs. red shoulder loops was when we first implemented the Oscar de la Renta uniform 30 years ago and I've NEVER heard Scouts want to get rid of the traditional white-on-red troop numerals.

 

Want to help the program? Help us figure out and address what's causing the mass migration out of Scouting at 10-11 years of age -- I can almost guarantee you that One Oath, G2SS, bilingual medical forms and uniform changes are doing nothing positive in this vein.

 

I happen to like my new SE so far -- the most I can tell you about the former SE is that I didn't hear anyone bemoaning his move and a lot of people celebrating the fact that we won't hear any more idiotic suggestions about selling our current camp lands and relocating the camp several hours further away in order to bulk up the endowment fund. (Heck, I made my first contribution to the endowment fund this year partially in celebration of his departure.)

 

It would actually be nice to have an ombudsman-type presence on this forum to ask questions and pass on views from the field.

Gre-e-e-e-eaa-a-a-at. More paperwork. Love it. Is National really looking for more ways to drive out dedicated volunteers?

As I remember it, only 1% used to make it to Eagle. Advancement is much more professionalized these days -- more organized, more resources, more options. Membership is declining and a higher percentage of Scouts are making Eagle but another way to look at it is that the kids who aren't really interested just aren't joining instead of dropping out as Second or First Class Scouts.

 

I've seen some paper Eagles yesterday as well as today and some EXCELLENT Eagles today as well as yesterday. Celebrate the fact that we still have Eagles, a program and fine young men.