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GKlose

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Posts posted by GKlose

  1. Thanks, guys, for joining in the spirit of this post -- I'm not lobbying for a change, I'm playing a "what if" game --

     

    And, yes, Bill, I am catching your point -- but let's say I'm going to start ignoring the spirit of your post as much as you're ignoring the spirit of mine...

     

    In my "secret fantasy world", the Citizenship badges would have been combined a long time ago. It (the one badge) would concentrate less on bookwork, would have 3 major components (maybe even 4), including Community, Nation and World requirements (overlap between the three MBs would be removed). It would also be about 3 times harder than any individual Citizenship badge is now, or at least take 3 times as long.

     

    Yes, E92 -- the thought of moving First Aid MB requirements to ranks, and "toughening it up" so that it has more WFA skills came to mind. I like that idea. But I also like the idea of establishing a Swimming-Lifesaving type of relationship with FA-WFA. It had also occurred to me that similar to the way PADI certification takes care of the bulk of Scuba MB, a certified WFA course could take care of the bulk of WFA merit badge.

     

    And yes, Kudu -- those proficiency badges were definitely on my mind --

     

    In general, if I had a hope for the people on the national task force(s) looking at advancement, whoever they are, and whatever they're doing, I wish that they'd start thinking outside of the box a little. We get plenty of changes, but honestly things aren't really much different than when I was a Scout (70s). Adding Cooking MB back, and adding a Sustainability MB option isn't exactly racy stuff.

     

    I do think there have been (or are going to be) positive changes -- I like the additions of Geocaching, Scuba, Kayaking and Search and Rescue. I like that they FINALLY did the right thing and are splitting up Computers into several different MBs (that's almost 10 years past when it would have made sense).

     

    Check out Canadian Challenge Badges sometime. Look at how they're set up, and maybe do a side-by-side comparison with one of our merit badges. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

     

    I know that many of us don't disclose our real life identities, and what we do professionally -- let's just say I'm an engineer in the telecomm world, and I've devoted all of my professional life to making better products for everyone, and I would think it is hard to argue that things aren't dramatically better now than they were even 10 years ago. That's why I play "what if" games.

     

    Guy

  2. Bill, with all due respect, I think you're missing my point. I think there are two reasons why Scouts aren't earning the NOA -- 1) it's new, and 2) it's not Eagle. On this last part, I've had some rather embarrassing experience with a troop where it became only about earning Eagle (another thread, already well-hashed).

     

    But I'm saying, as a thought exercise, what if that were turned around? Not that I want an ultimate outdoorsman award, but what if Eagle were an ultimate outdoorsman award? What would it look like?

     

    (like I said in my text, I don't have a problem with the way things presently are -- this is just strictly a "what if" game)

     

    Now -- present Eagle plus NOA. Sure, but it's not perfect. I'm speculating about "better" (implying better than what we have now) -- I am also not implying that Citizenship has no place in it.

     

    Please understand -- this is not an attack on present advancement, hence there is no need to defend the present system. This is (supposed to be, anyway) brainstorming about "better", or maybe even "different".

     

    Guy

  3. Since every good thread deserves a digression...

     

    With some virtual prompting by this forum, there's a mental exercise I've gone through, but have never shared...seeing as how a bunch of us are dissatisfied with the "classroom" nature of E/R merit badges, what would the list look like if we had an "all Scoutcraft" Eagle? Just off the top of my head:

     

    First Aid

    Wilderness First Aid (a new merit badge in my fantasy world -- similar to the Swimming/Lifesaving "continuum")

    Swimming

    Lifesaving/EPrep/Search and Rescue?

    Camping

    Cooking

    Canoeing/Rowing/Kayaking/Sailing?

    Hiking

    Backpacking

    Orienteering

    Pioneering

    Wilderness Survival

    ...and perhaps a couple of nature-oriented MBs (Weather, Nature, etc)

     

    In fact, how about in my fantasy world First Aid MB is a required part of Wilderness First Aid MB (just like Swimming/Lifesaving)? Or Camping and Hiking as a step before Backpacking? Remove cooking requirements (and boating/hiking/etc) requirements from Camping MB, because you really don't need the overlap.

     

    I wouldn't even mind something like a "Trekking" merit badge, which emaphasizes group leader and organizational skills going in to leading a trek, either on foot, or by boat (yes, I know -- Backpacking and Hiking merit badges have some of that already...but only some).

     

    Please note -- I don't have a problem with the way things presently are -- but this was more or less just a game where I imagined what it might be like to have an all-skills collection of Eagle-required merit badges.

     

    Yes -- I know -- it wouldn't fly. But I can still daydream, can't I? :-)

     

    Guy

  4. Hello all -- I've been looking at courses listed at PTC. Quite a few of them sound interesting to me, so I'm interested in hearing stories that some of you might have from your experiences. Anyone willing to share? A particularly good course? How the week went? Family experiences out there?

     

    Thanks,

    Guy

  5. "I can't understand why we don't open scout summer camps to non-member boys sponsored by a troop or another scout. 4H and Y camps both allow and even recruit non-members to fill camp slots and hopefully join later."

     

    The last two summers, I've had a couple of experiences that have me wondering the same thing --

     

    Daniel Webster Council, Griswold Scout Reservation -- they have 3 camps, two of which are Scout camps, and third is an Easter Seals camp. It is wholly-within the boundaries of Hidden Valley Scout camp. Easter Seals "campers" (co-ed, and it seemed like there was a 1:1 ratio of aides to campers) are fully integrated into the camp. They are in the dining hall, they are at the waterfront, etc.

     

    Then last year, we attended a camp in Quebec -- Tamaracouta Scout Reserve. The week we attended, their last I believe (although the staff told me there would be a few college and private groups coming in after us), I think there were only 3 Scout groups in attendance. Us, a mixed-age co-ed "Sea Scout group" (their system -- a "group" is like a pack, troop, crew, and rovers, all with a common committee) and a provisional Scout group.

     

    But the camp was full -- there was a group of about 50 Chinese teens in camp (a group called something like Kids To Kids), groups of Cub-age day campers, and (more or less) a group of day care attendees. There are also cabins that can accommodate family camping.

     

    Other than seeing (and hearing) the younger kids, there wasn't much interaction. You'd see them walking from place to place, but they were at program areas at a different time than Scouts were. It was actually very interesting how cleanly that all ran.

     

    But the absolute cutest thing I've ever seen: on a stroll from one program area to another, a group of 4-yr-olds, being led by a staff member, in singing "boom chicka-boom".

     

    It can work -- but the BSA would have to start thinking outside the box, do some research (hey, maybe Scouts Canada has figured out some things that we haven't yet!), and make some changes.

     

    Oh -- by the way. The DWC camps mentioned above. Looks like they are thinking outside the box. I noticed a change for this year. At their patrol-oriented camp (Camp Bell) and their advancement-oriented camp -- they've announced a program for second-year Webelos to attend camp. I find that very interesting. Our "feeder" pack's Webelos leader is already thinking it through. Get them out of the Cub Camp and into a real Scout camp.

     

    Guy

  6. There's no silver bullet coming from our troop, but we used to have serious issues -- in general, our guys would only camp when they needed to (rank requirements and Camping merit badge), went to summer camp with the troop for a year or two, and then would attend "Eagle Week" (provisional; Eagle-required merit badges) for one or two summers. Wouldn't seen them much after that.

     

    But all that was turned around. There were a couple of edicts -- for example, we set an outing schedule well in advance. Same weekend every month, outings are never cancelled due to lack of participation. Outing "themes" and planning were turned back over to the PLC (prior to that, the PLC didn't meet much, because they didn't need to -- they weren't doing anything). And we specifically started planning outings, such as high adventure trips, that would appeal to older Scouts.

     

    Things are a whole lot better now. Outing participation is way up (more than tripled) and the troop size has almost doubled. We get new members -- teens -- all the time. Each one of them is a friend being recruited. Good crossover "class" last year, and now they have a group of older Scouts to look up to.

     

    I really like how the troop is turning out.

     

    Guy

  7. 1973, PA, Moraine State Park. I do remember Danny Thomas appearing, and thinking that his speech was very odd. He talked a lot about discipline, from what I recall, and how tough he was with his kids.

     

    Musically, I don't recall, other than watching a Scout band at what must have been a subcamp show one morning. I was a new band kid myself, so I remember thinking how great it would be to be up on stage. Didn't pursue it for the '77 Jamboree.

     

    However, just a couple of years ago, I did some searching online, and found out that applications for the 2013 Jamboree band were due imminently. Told my 15-yr-ld band kid about it, he applied and was accepted. He's very excited about that -- he was at the 2010 jamboree, and is looking forward to seeing the Jamboree from a different vantage point.

     

    Carly Rae and Train? Honestly, I think they're hitting the wrong demographic for both.

     

    Guy

  8. We went to a Canadian camp (Tamaracouta Scout Reserve, in Quebec) this last summer. Through hints from others who have been there, we learned you can do a "mix and match" thing with their "catering" (dining hall) service. So we purchased 3 meals from them (arrival dinner, dinner the night before departure, and breakfast before departure). In addition to that, we had brought our first couple of days of food from home, and then shopped at a local market (about 20 minutes' drive).

     

    We could have scrimped more on the food we purchased, but without doing so, our food cost for the week turned out to be about $110 per person -- without using the catering service, we would have been closer to $80. Lower, if we hadn't bought some higher-end food.

     

    Guy

  9. OGE: "I guess the real question is what is being done to prevent this from happening again?"

     

    OGE, I'm not entirely sure if you're directing this question to me, in this circumstance, but the parent thread of this one pretty much laid out the situation that our troop had been in, and the changes that the SM and I (now as CC) had been trying to make.

     

    Prior situation: advancement-oriented troop, almost an "Eagle Mill" in a way. Many, many Scout were expressed through early ranks and treated the troop as if becoming an Eagle Scout was the only point to belonging. Outings had been cut back to bare minimum, and in general, Scouts would attend summer camp maybe twice with the troop, once or twice go to "Eagle Week" (provisional week at camp, concentrating on Eagle-required merit badges), and then not really participate in the summers any more. In fact, when my older son joined the troop, the CC treated the troop as an "academic year" unit (like some Cub packs do). Fall camping was sparse, because the SM hunted, and wasn't involved with weekend outings. Winter outings didn't happen, because it's the northeast, and the "Eagle prospects" didn't really have requirements to go winter camping.

     

    Patrols were non-functional, even though Scouts had PoRs including Patrol Leaders. Our typical SPLs were high school students who rarely showed up (because, in reality, they didn't need to). In fact, and this is off the top of my head, past Eagles had these PoRs: Ass't PLs (but were listed as "acting PLs" even though patrols were non-existent), Bugler (he would play Taps at the end of meetings that he showed up to, his only real bugler duties; when he realized that Bugler wouldn't count for Eagle, he lobbied to become ASPL, even though he knew he wouldn't be showing up on outings or to meetings), ASPL that came to about 3 meetings during the course of a year, Quartermaster (who did absolutely nothing besides hold the title), a Librarian that did nothing besides store a box of merit badge pamplets for a year.

     

    It was a mess. However, I'd like to report that 3 or 4 years later, now, the situation looks much more like a Boy Scout troop should. We actually have functional patrols, and we have PoR-holders that actually do something. Our former Advancement Chair (who started the accountability movement, in Boards) is now our Scoutmaster, where he has continued with the accountability movement. We went from meeting once or twice a month, to meeting practically every week. We went from less than six outings a year, to about 16 outings last year, which included two summer camps. The prior summer, two summer camps and a high adventure trip for First Class and above Scouts. We have a real treasurer, who wrote our first budget and took care of annual re-registration for me. We have a 5-year plan for high adventure trips, which we hope to turn into a rotating schedule. We have a "participation policy", which had been discussed by the troop committee. That policy was listed in the parent thread to this one.

     

    As a relatively new CC, I just hit my first recharter. I did drop a few Scouts that we haven't seen in a year. There is one that I should have dropped from the charter, but didn't. He's a few months from 18, and I know we won't see him again (why did I recharter him? Because his dad paid the registration fee...).

     

    Guy

  10. A few weeks ago, I cajoled a committee member into finally taking Troop Committee Challenge. Afterward, she said "what's up with the 1980s graphics?". To me, Physical Wellness is worse.

     

    I don't get it. We don't need cartoonish online training. That stuff wouldn't even work with young teens.

     

    I find it condescending for adults, in a way.

     

    I also don't mean this to sound overly harsh, but someone, somewhere thinks that is sufficient training. To me, that's where the real problem is.

     

    Guy

  11. Thanks, guys -- I think this was the last of the "old guard". We have three Scouts coming up for district Eagle Boards this month and next, and all three had been addressed at one time or another about their participation level. All three also made some tough priority calls, and made changes. Two have already aged out, and I don't really expect to see the third much before his 18th birthday this fall. He is attending a very rigorous parochial school.

     

    Had an interesting conversation on Saturday. It was a district "recharter day" and I met our COR/UC there (he fulfills both roles, and is a former SM of our troop -- very nice guy). He didn't know the story about the controversy, so I filled him in. Along the way, he told me that when he was Scoutmaster, he was approached by a Scout who hadn't been around, but it was about 4 months before his 18th birthday. The Scout did not have a PoR. The SM/COR/UC told me he refused to sign the application, and that it had been a very unpopular decision. Seems the Scout was a son of a former Scoutmaster of the troop.

     

    Guy

  12. Hello all -- I felt a should post a followup to this well-hashed topic from last fall. Results have been made public, although the District Advancement Chair or Committee, or the Scout in question, haven't contacted me.

     

    (oversimplified summary: Scout doesn't participate for about 3 years, wants signature for Eagle application, doesn't get it, and files appeal with the council)

     

    Back at a November roundtable, I saw the DAC, and he told me that the CAC had decided to allow the District Advancement Commitee to go forward with an Eagle Board of Review. That board happened in mid-December, and the Scout was awarded Eagle.

     

    Of course, there's a lot of missing detail in there (before and after), but I think it is probably best if I keep that private. My own personal feelings? I'm not surprised in the outcome, and while I did get a "you must be pissed" comment, that couldn't be further from the truth.

     

    Guy

     

  13. When we were working on a transition from adult-led, troop method (mostly an adult cooking for 6 to 8 Scouts) to actual patrol cooking (which didn't take right away), we came up with a couple of ideas -- one was to give each "cooking group" two chickens, and then they could do whatever they wanted with them. One group did chicken cesar salads, and the other made fried chicken. The SM roast two chickens on a spit. The other idea was a "mystery box" -- a box of various cans and other packages, to go along with whatever protein was available. Although we never got there, my next evolution was going to be the "mystery envelope" (which was going to contain about $40, and then Scouts would be given planning time and taken to a local market).

     

    Not long ago, we used an idea from this forum -- we bought a couple of new dutch ovens, so that each patrol would have one. At a troop meeting, we laid out about 20 different recipes, some breakfast, some dinner, and some desserts. Patrols were allowed to choose from them, to be used on an upcoming outing. Turns out our guys respond to these theme-like ideas. One of our big transitions, a year ago, was when the PLC wanted to do a cooking-themed outing. Patrols, and adults, planned a bunch of different meal options, and then everyone floated from group to group, sampling the choices. I think that was when they fully realized that patrol cooking on weekend outings doesn't have to be the same old boring things.

     

    Guy

  14. And a Happy 2013 to everyone as well...

     

    I'll jump in here. Had a couple of adult leaders and two senior Scouts over yesterday to talk about planning for a Seabase 2014 trip. After they left, the SM stuck around and we talked about other future plans. We're in the third year of a four-year high adventure plan, so we're going to extend it out and put it on a rotating cycle of some sort -- and I've resolved myself to start working on my next great plan. When I was a Scout, two of my most favorite summers were summers where we did summer camp on our own. With some ideas generated in another thread, I've come to the conclusion this is something we can do. And I think it will turn out well.

     

    I'm not going to turn it into a "summer camp", though. Last year, we went to our regular camp and to a camp in Quebec. There were a few too many families that turned it into an either/or situation, I think. For example, we saw a few Scouts interested in the Canada trip even though they'd never been to summer camp with us before.

     

    So, "summer camp on our own" will have a different name. Perhaps "long-term camp" or "high adventure camp" (depending on the activities we line up.

     

    I also have another task -- I've briefly mentioned this before, but about 18 months ago, we had a family originally from Puerto Rico transfer into our troop. Last summer, they told me about an "interchange" idea that I think would be really great. Next step, for me, is to try and get a group of Scouts from their old troop to come up to our summer camp. I think we can easily get the airfare part figured out, and also "host families" when they arrive here. The hard(er) part will be to talk to the council about summer camp pricing. Their camp, in Puerto Rico, runs about $185/week. Ours is $200 more, per week. I'm going to work the channels with the council and the council camping committee, to see if we can get them an abatement. We all know that the marginal cost of adding a Scout to camp is nowhere near $385 per week, so I'm hoping we can work things out.

     

    Guy

  15. Hi guys -- I have an interesting development on this front. Our council announced a council contingent (up to 16 slots) for the very same week we were targeting. I did have a quick discussion with the council staff high adventure adviser about the contingency fee built in, and I'm happy with his response (the "padding" seems reasonable, given they take care of all the administrative aspects that I would otherwise have to take care of). Together, we decided that we could try the lottery and then if that doesn't work out, we can talk to him about the council slots. I suspect, however, that we may be limited to 2 adults.

     

    Guy

  16. Yes -- we heard the same thing when our five districts were reorganized into three, about two years ago. It didn't matter about the size of the professional staff. As attrition happened, slots were not refilled, and even then, there was turnover with the SE and with some of the DEs. So I've seen two SEs and four DEs in the last three years. It really isn't a big deal when you accept the transient nature of those jobs.

     

    But, you know where it does hurt? FoS. My donations were based on a relationship with a DE, which has been missing for over two years. For me, a turning point was a month after a new DE started, and he sent out a letter to Scouters in the district that said, more or less, "Hi, my name is X, and I am your new District Executive. Your Friends of Scouting goal is...". Not exactly a great first communication from a new DE.

     

    Guy

  17. Fred, I have a "move" when a Scout with a workbook comes to me. I'll start off the conversation with a general question or two, and then I might ask a more-pointed question directly from a requirement. As soon as he dives for the workbook, I might ask him if I can take a look at it. I'll glance at it and then I'll turn it over next to me. Then I'll continue with the questions. :-)

     

    Sure, there will be some items where we'll have to look directly at it...for example, I'm a counselor for Cooking MB. He's supposed to do three sets of menus, etc. But when we get to first aid issues and food-borne microbes, along with food handling and safety, I consider that stuff pretty important. We have a conversation that might go along the lines of "so how is beef (or chicken) properly stored? How do you handle it? Would you cut up a chicken before or after slicing up a bunch of vegetables? What microbe is likely to pick up from improperly handled beef/chicken?"

     

    I know that he wants to look it up on the worksheet. But if he doesn't know those basics off the top of his head, we discuss them at length, and then at our next meeting we'll discuss them again. When he reaches a point where I think he understands the material, that's when he is signed off.

     

    With Cooking MB, I've faced "group classes" and worksheets, and I never do complete sign-offs based on just those. I use them as a starting point. Cooking, in particular, has a ton of small details (which I consider to be important), such as the weight of their backpacking menu (and I specifically look for non-refrigerated food -- the last kid that came to talk to me had bacon, hot dogs and turkey sandwiches on his backpacking menu -- we had a talk about what might be more appropriate choices -- next time we'll go over his changes), breakdowns of quantities and costs of all menus.

     

    I also counsel Music MB...the requirements aren't quite so detailed, so it is a much easier merit badge to finish in a sitting or two. I've gotten workbooks for that two, but since one requirement is to illustrate something, and another has an option to make lists, the workbook might indeed include the final product. But prior to that, we have a discussion about families of musical instruments and what differentiates those families. It's not really that difficult.

     

    Guy

  18. Fred, I have a "move" when a Scout with a workbook comes to me. I'll start off the conversation with a general question or two, and then I might ask a more-pointed question directly from a requirement. As soon as he dives for the workbook, I might ask him if I can take a look at it. I'll glance at it and then I'll turn it over next to me. Then I'll continue with the questions. :-)

     

    Sure, there will be some items where we'll have to look directly at it...for example, I'm a counselor for Cooking MB. He's supposed to do three sets of menus, etc. But when we get to first aid issues and food-borne microbes, along with food handling and safety, I consider that stuff pretty important. We have a conversation that might go along the lines of "so how is beef (or chicken) properly stored? How do you handle it? Would you cut up a chicken before or after slicing up a bunch of vegetables? What microbe is likely to pick up from improperly handled beef/chicken?"

     

    I know that he wants to look it up on the worksheet. But if he doesn't know those basics off the top of his head, we discuss them at length, and then at our next meeting we'll discuss them again. When he reaches a point where I think he understands the material, that's when he is signed off.

     

    With Cooking MB, I've faced "group classes" and worksheets, and I never do complete sign-offs based on just those. I use them as a starting point. Cooking, in particular, has a ton of small details (which I consider to be important), such as the weight of their backpacking menu (and I specifically look for non-refrigerated food -- the last kid that came to talk to me had bacon, hot dogs and turkey sandwiches on his backpacking menu -- we had a talk about what might be more appropriate choices -- next time we'll go over his changes), breakdowns of quantities and costs of all menus.

     

    I also counsel Music MB...the requirements aren't quite so detailed, so it is a much easier merit badge to finish in a sitting or two. I've gotten workbooks for that two, but since one requirement is to illustrate something, and another has an option to make lists, the workbook might indeed include the final product. But prior to that, we have a discussion about families of musical instruments and what differentiates those families. It's not really that difficult.

     

    Guy

  19. I dropped a teaser in another thread -- with regards to the situation outlined in this thread, the district advancement chair told me something unofficially about six weeks ago, based upon actions of the council advancement committee. I haven't felt comfortable relaying something unofficial, so I haven't followed up. I plan to, once I get official word.

     

    To my knowledge, the DAC was the "fact finder" talking to the Scout (or his dad, I'm not sure), our SM, our prior SM and to me. He relayed that information to the CAC, and I would guess it was discussed at a council advancement committee meeting. The DAC did tell me that the CAC has run into similar appeals before.

     

    Guy

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  20. I started a thread a few months back ("skirting the bare minimum") that well-hashed some of the issues related to attendance expectations. For those that remember that thread, I should have an update soon -- I've heard some things unofficially, but have heard nothing official...

     

    Anyway, I suggest being upfront, direct and clear about attendance expectations for troop members. Problems arise when gray areas are presented for consideration.

     

    Guy

  21. This happened to us, about 2 years ago. There were 5 old councils, merged into one, back in the early 90s. Each became a district, and each still had their old council camps. Three of the camps were eventually sold.

     

    There are diverging opinions on what happened two years ago, but there was a committee put together late in one year, plans were "socialized" starting in January, and by June the new plan was implemented. Five districts were combined into three.

     

    But here was the actual: two smaller districts were combined into one. Then my district was cut in half. There was an impassioned last-minute plea by an old timer, who reasoned that the four towns in the district were historically linked and should not be split apart (rather, the guy was arguing all four should be moved together). Fell on deaf ears. The only other result besides combining two districts into one and splitting our district in half was to move one town from one district to another. This move made sense because it was part of a regional school district with a town in the other district. In other words, putting the two of them together because there were linked school-wise.

     

    So the "realignment" really irked the volunteers in my old district.

     

    Two interesting things happened: one of the receiving districts (my new one) welcomed the new volunteers with open arms. Couldn't have been nicer. The other district basically told their new volunteers, "well, we're pretty booked up, but here are a few slots you can fill" and then proceeded to show them who calls the shots.

     

    The council executive board did enforce renaming of all three districts. The old historic council names are no longer in use as district names. Three "thematic names" were chosen by each of the districts.

     

    It took about a year and a half, but 5 DEs eventually became just 3 DEs, and I think only one of them is a holdover. In other words, four DEs left in the last two years, and two new ones came in. I've come to the realization that DEs come and go. In fact, I think we're on our third SE since my oldest joined Cubs.

     

    Guy

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