Garrison Cap

Sometimes discrimination is fair.

I would cheerfully discriminate against a gay man who wanted to go camping with teenaged boys.

Sad to say, but the only thing that your forum seems to value discussing is this divisive issue.

I joined about two years ago, and rather than be "repelled by the point of view" of those who support the BSA policy, I have been disappointed that the only topic which seems worthy of discussion is whether the BSA should bend to forces that demand they permit openly gay men to volunteer as mentors to post-pubescent youth. I shudder to think who will be eager to step into

I wish that scouter.com would have been kept busier with topics that more closely accrue to the program of scouting, rather than whether a gay man has the "right" to volunteer for an organization that does not ask for, nor desire, his service.

" So I look at this for what it is: One group of people and organizations imposing their will on another, on a subject that has nothing to do with the core values of Scouting. "

Pot, meet kettle.

Bluntly put, I would say that permitting certain adults to volunteer in a nonprofit organization (for youth) that does not need, nor require, nor solicit for their help has nothing to do with scouts or scouting.

It's Boy Scouts, emphasis on the boy. Not the adult leadership.(This message has been edited by Garrison Cap)

I realize the irony of me taking the position for BD and against the Scouts, given that I posted long ago about our troop running off some "creepy guy" who pitched his tent in our already-established reserved campsite.

But the etiquette of the AT (as far as I understand it) is that shelters are first-come, first-serve, and no one has the right to expel someone else.

Maybe the troop thought BD was a "creepy guy." Tough. He was there first. Nobody has reservations. If the troop was so bothered by it, they could have moved on to the next shelter and ...dealt with the "creepy" people who were hanging out there.

BD, what was the conversation? Were they abusive? Did they attempt to intimidate you?

Craigslist is awesome! I bought a car on craigslist! I found this ad by searching for "scout" on http://www.allofcraigs.com/ looking for patches and what-not.

I just don't think you're going to find high-quality volunteers by throwing out such a wide net. Maybe they should go ask the council if there's any retired scouters who want to help out until some parents get the clue.

Okay. So, if our reputation is so tarnished (unfairly or fairly), what can we do about it? Volunteer to undo damage caused by campers? That's where my mind is going. It sounds like an excellent OA service project. I think that would go a long way towards burnishing our image in the eyes of the outdoor professionals who maintain the back country, whether or not our troop is responsible for any damage.

The elite is always going to look down the Scouts...because we're not "elite." We're a bunch of boys. And even worse, we're a bunch of squares who still believe in God and country.

Based on BD's experience, I'll be prepared to ask some pointed questions if another troop tried to run me off. And then I would shoot some letters to their council, district, committee and chartering org. Maybe they're ALL rude and won't care what this troop did, but I doubt it. The results aren't the point. They need to know.

And maybe to the forest service (or other government agency), too. A troop that runs off campers from public shelters is not sharing the land. Maybe they should take a "time-out" the next time they want to go camping there.

I took my son to help an Eagle candidate do his project, and was surprised to see all the other adult leaders out there pitching in. It was a construction job, but it was all done with hand tools. There was no reason to have grown-ups out there, except to get the job finished more quickly.

Late, I was talking to an ASM in another troop who's son just finished his Eagle project, which was very similar in nature. All boys. No adult help.

How do you do this in your troop? Shouldt an Eagle project be completely scout-run? Or am I all wet?

In our troop, every ASM is the father of a scout. Some stay on after their sons leave scouting -- one guy's son made Eagle back in 1977, and he still comes to the meetings and sits on boards of review. But everyone is well-known.

To think a troop would take a perfect stranger and say "You'll do," is rather unsettling.

I predict that this recruiting method will bring ...unsatisfactory... results.

http://sarasota.craigslist.org/vol/2653866920.html

"No requirements other than a willingness to help a great organization We have need for Committee members who wish to help in the Troop administration, Fundraising, Rank advancement, or community involvement. Both Men and Women are welcome. Our Committee meetings are held at the Elks on the first Wednesday of every month at 7PM . We also need more help in the Assistant Scoutmaster positions - merit badge counselling, camping, and mentorship. You did not have to be an Eagle Scout yourself, all training is available including the mandatory Youth Protection training. Committee approval needed and Letters of reference are appreciated."

>This always seems to be people's first reaction to this type of issue when working with youth. I wonder why our first reaction is to assume that the kid is confused, or just plain "wrong." I'm not sure if any such research has been done, but I'd be interested to see whether there's any correlation between what a person "believes" there sexuality to be as a teenager, versus what they "believe" it to be at an older age.

I think I explained it well in my post above. The first set of pubescent genitals I ever saw was in the shower at scout camp. And they were male, and I was somewhat shocked and at the same time, curious. And I didn't know what to do those feelings, although I am became quite certain about my heterosexuality as time went by and my own development concluded.

It's possible not everyone is as sure of themselves at age 11 as you were, KC9DDI.

So the line of inquiry described by basement dweller is not invalid.

> However the implication from Garrison Cap (and do forgive me if I have misunderstood) is that the very fact that a scout in the troop is gay means that you have to be more proactive. I just don't see that that is the case.

Well, I think you do; just as if you had had boys and girls of different ages (11-17) mixing together on a campout. It's no different.

First of all, I'm going to give praise to Basement Dweller for his actions.

Under-reacting, and informing the boy's mother were both good decisions. And I also welcome his raising of further questions -- what if it had been an older scout, or a young adult leader, who had presented him with the news?

And I concur that an 11-year-old may not know what he's feeling -- perhaps he saw an older boy in the showers and felt uncomfortable, didn't know what to do with those feelings, and concluded he was "gay." Or maybe he really is.

What would you do if it were an older scout? You would have a responsibility to keep them from trying to have sex with other scouts, certainly. I don't know how that would be achieved.

Once a kid reaches First Class, he's committed. He'll likely make Eagle unless he chooses to leave scouting altogether.

I don't understand this sniping at jtswestark, and I find this lack of decorum embarrassing.

A scout is courteous, for Pete's sake.

Well, if 95% of the First Class Scouts make Eagle, and you've had only 17 Eagles, then evidently you have a smaller troop than some. Works for me.

We just added our 150th Eagle earlier this year. We have about 90 scouts, and have been in existence for 45 years. From what I can tell (and I am new), it seems that most of the scouts who make Eagle are self-starters, active scouts and good students, yet, they almost always wait until the last minute to get that final rank. We don't award many palms.

After attending summer camp for the first time this year, I got a pretty good look at how other troops run their programs. I saw troops that were obviously adult-led (40 adults, 45 scouts -- only two new scouts attending), other troops that were very keen on the outdoor method, and some that practiced Tai Chi in the mornings.

All I can do is help my own troop. What other scout troops do concerns me very little, unless I think it will work in my program (and yes, I did learn some new methods).

Not particularly impressed here, either.

Belay my last message: Just bought a Jac Shirt on eBay from an Eagle Scout for $20; it's marked 42 and fits me fine (I wear L everything else).

Greetings, fellow scouters!

I'm a new ASM with my son's troop in Illinois. He crossed over in February. When he earned his arrow of light, I wasn't sure he was going to go on in scouting, because the second year of Webelos was very boring for him, and he never wanted to wear his uniform.

But having joined the troop, he really looks up to the older scouts and wants to be just like them. His enthusiasm has rubbed off on me. As I got to know the uniformed leaders, I began to look for ways to volunteer, and then I took on duties as the troop's volunteer service coordinator. Before I knew it, the Scoutmaster was introducing me as the new ASM, and I had to go buy a uniform!

My duties also include photography (I'm a professional!), and signing off on troop menus (no more ramen and donuts). On the agenda for the next year are service at a food bank and adopting a local park.

I was an eager cub scout back in the late 1970s but my tenure in the upper ranks was very brief. When my family moved to the suburbs after my 12th birthday, I chose not to join a troop in my new town. Like violin lessons, it's something I wish I hadn't quit, but my parents gave me a certain amount of leeway in those matters. Maybe too much.

I've spent the last few months catching up on all the developments that have occurred in the last 35 years, reading everything the local library can offer. My experience so far has been somewhat like that of Peter Applebome, the author of "Scouts Honor," who started as a parent volunteer and later became an ASM.

Thanks for having me!

Watch out! According to the sizing chart at http://www.scoutstuff.org/retail/sizecharts/ a 42 Jac-Shirt will fit someone who normally wears XS.

I tried calling the 1-800 number to sort this out, but was on hold for about ten minutes before hanging up

In my experience, I have found that the opposite is almost always true.

"Stupid Americans, what do they know..." People from near and far feel entitled to give their unsolicited opinion on how we run our country and our lives, and how we should be more like them, regardless of whether their system works better, or if it works at all.

Let the Scouting Association in the UK be the Scouting Association in the UK. My son will never be a member of that organization, and whatever they do matters not at all to me. If it comes to pass that the Boy Scouts of America chooses to change their policies, then I will make a decision whether I want my family to continue in scouting.

The only solution can come from within, and at the decision of the BSA and it's scouts. The only part of the issue on which I do have strong feelings is that I am adamantly opposed to the ACLU's campaign of lawsuits against the BSA. In every other aspect, I can support arguments both for and against change.

(This message has been edited by Garrison Cap)

There IS an alternative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Powell_Scouts%27_Association

...as long as we're talking about preserving our roots.(This message has been edited by Garrison Cap)