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fred8033

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Everything posted by fred8033

  1. I often think about what the law was back when these cases happened. Would the same conclusion have been reached? Did the BSA see themselves as "operating" the troop? Or did they see COs as operating the troop and BSA providing a program structure? Like a franchise model. Having the law as it exists now, BSA would have done better to structure itself as an intellectual licensing business offering a program. Heck, I'm sure many people thought that is exactly what they were doing and had no idea they were taking "ownership" of so much or ever conceived they had the responsibilities b
  2. Only time will heal these wounds. Only getting outdoors sitting under a tarp during a downpour will wash the pain. Many times it's the kids of the extremely dedicated adults who get affected the most. They see the damage, the cost, the pain, the frustration. They may be wisely saying they don't want to repeat that. I really believe scouting works best when it's kept simple. Get outside and go for a hike. Light a camp fire and cook a meal. Overly focusing on the ideal way of running scouting damages the program. It's fun and useful to think about the ideal scouting progra
  3. Absolutely agree. Which points of law will be emphasized? Which will yield a conclusion or just more litigation? How is the court leaning to affect whether law is interpreted to reach a desired conclusion or applied to find the conclusion?
  4. It makes sense though. Philmont, Seabase and Northern Tier offer experiences scouters can get elsewhere. Many of Philmont's outposts can be found at summer camps or elsewhere. All the hiking, canoeing and other activities can be found elsewhere too. BUT ... the Summit is an identify for BSA. A gathering spot. An event venue. Tens of thousands of scouts can gather. A unique property. Plus, it's the only high-adventure base on the east coast within reasonable drive of large population centers. It's a huge asset. A hundred years from now it could eclipse Philmont as a BSA brand-nam
  5. Agree. Your reasoning is on target. Simple exit with a huge paycheck. Deep pockets drive these cases. Often the best way to protect yourself from such cases is to not have assets. Litigants want a conclusion and cash; not some some end-date years in the future and a promise of a check five or ten years out. I'm sure many would settle for X if 2X means ten more years, lots of additional cost and continued risk gambling the payout. Imaginge the legal and court costs to liquidate council assets? Imagine the suits about disputing clear proper titles? This forum itself has sha
  6. Statue of limitations is a confusing topic and seems extremely pliable to the point we can quesiton if limitations really exist. I fear the Illinois case as it's reasoning effectively eliminates statue of limitations in many cases. For BSA, Illinois elimiated it because of BSA's special relationship installing morals. What about those of churches that exist to instill morals also? What about those of schools that exist to instill reasoning and knowledge? What about medical who's special relationship is to lookout for the health and wellfare of the patient? W
  7. Where you'd say he has no right to call out wrong when he earned his money that way, I'd say people don't have the right to represent themselves as in it to help victims when they are billing $1000 per hour. Those invoices are prima facia evidence that there's a lot of people in this to get rich. Not everyone. But definitely many. Or helping BSA when billing $1000 per hour. Sorry, you're doing it because you can bill $1000 per hour. I suspect by the end of this, both BSA and plaintiffs attorneys will have charged massive amounts. I'm not sure who will have charged more by the t
  8. We're probably closer in opinion then differ on this one. But I would assert sometimes other criminals understand crime better than the innocent.
  9. You should not disparage the character of individuals so soon after saying we are accusing others. It's probably fair game if he's viewing this from the side lines.
  10. We are not accusing specific individuals. It's the whole situation. Anyone can feel emotionally connected and work their hearts out for $1000 per hour. How about doing it for $100 per hour? Ya definitely won't starve at that rate? It's emotional for me because my sons worked as camp staff. I think of their hard work ... often working wake-up to bed-time for minimum wage, effectively $4 per hour. Or the lower level scouting staff that earns a fraction of their value. ... OR ... The millions of BSA adult volunteers over the years that have not been paid and instead paid thous
  11. Absolutely agree. The law can absolutely be a noble profession and extremely hard. And some lawyers are absolutely just charging large sums when their clients can afford it and their clients agree. I'm really not thinking this is the BSA situation though. There is something completely immoral about this.
  12. Great quote ... “All of us have discounted our rates on these cases because, if all the money goes to the lawyers, there’s not going to be anything left for survivors,” said Susan Boswell, an Arizona bankruptcy attorney who has worked on several abuse cases involving the Catholic Church in which she has dropped her hourly rate — normally $700 — to as low as $450, she said." Still immoral if it's only half as immoral. Index the "discounted" maximum rate to 10 times minimum wage. I just have trouble calling $450 per hour "discounted".
  13. It's a partnership. A&B in business together. A can't ditch B without recompense, but if B fails, that does not mean A is forced to go down with the ship. A can find ways to survive and continue. If anything, A has a claim against B for impact to A's business. Perhaps the LCs should counter sue in bankruptcy for business impact due to BSA's legal issues. If BSA goes out of business, LCs should sue for legal rights to the intellectual property they have depended on. That seems fair.
  14. It's called a "kick-back". Choose us to be your lawyers and we will give you 10% of our fees. ... Of course, we'll make sure our fee is at least 20% higher than other clients. Thus, you both get richer thru the kickback. We had a local place give a box of stakes if you chose them to replace your car's windshield. Very popular place ... until the insurance companies succeeded pointing out they were being billed well above the value of the stakes. I think courts got involved and agreed that the insurance company did not need to pay.
  15. Simple fact is local charters can function without BSA. They can keep using the same program. Slightly change. Or offer a more general youth oriented, outdoor leadership experience program. Councils can keep serving the "scouting purpose" relatively easily without BSA national.
  16. I accidentally tripped into a billing. I should have figured all the groups legal fees would be visible. Here is a TCC vendor bill. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/884358_2487.pdf Many more "Fee Applications" can be found by typing "fee application" into this web site: https://cases.omniagentsolutions.com/documents?clientid=CsgAAncz%2B6Yclmvv9%2Fq5CGybTGevZSjdVimQq9zQutqmTPHesk4PZDyfOOLxIiIwZjXomPlMZCo%3D&tagid=1153
  17. Claimant fees are racking up at similar rates. The motion document also quotes "TCC professionals are charging the estate similarly high rates, with eight lawyers from the TCC’s lead law firm billing at over $1,000/hour in January 2021, for example." ... How many law firms and lawyers are representing the claimants? I'm not sure if claimants lawyers get paid every three months like BSA's lawyers or have to wait for a final settlement. I'm just saying legal fees of both sides are arrogantly huge.
  18. Motion 3161 ... https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/202c0596-1e8e-464c-989b-4c661794580c_3161.pdf So ... For those saying "their" lawyer is doing this from the good of their heart? Mar 2020: 32 professionals * 175 hours * 1000 = $5.6 million. I'm sure some are less than full time. I'm sure some are more than full time. I'm sure some are way about $1000. And some are just trying to put bread on their families table at $350 an hour. The below table itself represents probably $50+ million in fees. Probably far more. There is only one set of
  19. Exactly. Playing both sides of an argument only creates a mess and does not help. I learned a long time ago that at some point you need to find a path thru the mess. But playing two contradicting sides is not viable.
  20. #1 legally separate ... That then is TCC treating LCs as legally separate ... OR ... TCC is extracting value from a BSA during bankruptcy and running amok the priority of other debtors and the judge overseeing the case. So are LCs separate legally such that TCC can extract funds directly? Or if liable for BSA national, then the funds are subject to bankruptcy distribution and TCC needs to wait for the bankruptcy proceedings. #2 revoking charter ... Not clear cut at all. The by-laws include the words of "constructive trust" and for the purposes of scouting. And, address the case wh
  21. Per TCC talking directly with LCs as evidence of being legally separate But then the reality of the efforts between the LCs and TCC recently show the opposite. I've been reading comments about last TCC mtg and other TCC activities. About last meeting, attendance was huge and suggested that hat people should ask their scout exec or council president attended. Further, the TCC inviting (the invite itself) shows a direct communication approach. Another comment in this thread said that TCC was open to direct communication with any LC.
  22. We've debated till our faces are blue about BSA being at fault for past abuses. Sadly, we're of different opinion here too. I can't blame BSA causing further harm by legally pursing bankruptcy. Society is foolish to think that revisiting these sins of the past ever heals the present. Even more foolish to think that any financial compensation corrects for damages. Blame the legislatures who extended liability from decades ago. Blame advocates who think that's a good idea to muck rake the past. Blame lawyers chasing ambulances. Blame empty promises saying you will get signific
  23. Dumb question ... By the TCC inviting the LCs directly and beginning direct discussions with LCs, isn't that TCC effectively acknowledging the LCs as separate entities ? ... incorporated separately ... paying taxes separately ... owning property separately ... now beginning to negotiate with TCC separately? Further, doesn't it create evidence that BSA doesn't control the council leadership? (presidents, scout execs, etc?) ... council leaders negotiating directly with TCC ... choosing to opt in or opt out of a larger settlement ... That lack of control is further evidence tha
  24. Scouting is not a bargain. Worth the value when done right, but often over promising, under delivering and at cost. I'm betting there were multiple years where we spent $500 per month on average. Four summer camps + being a leader and usually at the camps + plus often an extra week of summer camp for multiple kids + one high adventure base per kid + monthly camp outs + activities + extra costs + leader costs + gas + equipment. It really adds up. My sons and I definitely benefited from scouting, but it was not a bargain. We could have done much more as a family (money and time). Bu
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