fboisseau

We pay $15. That includes the patch, lunch, and handouts.

Venturer2002,

I think that what you will find, is the boys will want to get rid of the hats and leave the neckerchief. Most of the boys in the Pack I work with do not wear the hats, but they do wear the neckerchief.

Rooster7,

My statement was made because, I see three main groups in this agruments. The first group are the evoultionist that accept the science without question given all it holes. The second group is the creationists, who as a whole tend to dismiss the evidence for evoultion and will only accept a literial reading of Genesis. The last group are people who accept both explanations because they see the hand of God in the evidence for evoultion. I do have more of a problem with the pure creationists because they will ignore or discount all the evidence for evoultion out of hand just because it conflicts with Genesis, instead of trying to workout how both can be true. And since most if not all of this evidence is based on the proven laws of the universe, if it wrong we could not exist. The evoultionist tend not to believe in the Bible at all and if they do they fall in some flavor of what I beleive. For those who are more interested in what I am talking about I suggest you read the books by Gerald L. Schroeder. He does a better job of reconciling the two beliefs then I ever could do in this forum.

The reason, I have heard for the fact that thier is no belt loops for Martial Arts or Karate is that they are contact sports and BSA does not what to encourage contact sports (the same reason is given for no belt loop for tackle football). I can understand this point and do support it, but do wish they would look at it again since a good Marial Arts program will teach the same traits as BSA (respect, self-displine, and honor). For example the in Tae Kwon Do they have the following that is taught to each student along with the skills:

Tenets of Tae Kwon Do:

1. Courtesy

2. Integrity

3. Perseverance

4. Self-Control

5. Indomitable Spirit

6. Victory

Ten Commandments of Tae Kwon Do:

1. Be loyal to your country.

2. Be a good son or daughter to your parents.

3. Be faithful to your spouse.

4. Be on good terms with your brothers and sisters.

5. Be loyal to your friends.

6. Be respectful to the elders.

7. Respect and trust your teachers.

8. Use good judgement before killing any living thing.

9. Never retreat in battle.

10. Always finish what you start.

Most of these are things we would like to see in a good Scout. I also accept that BSA has the problem that they have no control over the quality of a Martial Arts program and there are bad ones out there, but then there are bad soccer programs that are concerned with winning at all cost (I have seen them).

My belief is very simple. God decided to use evolution to achieve a goal, and with evolution and some hands on work at different points that goal was achieved. That goal was a thinking self-aware creature. This is no different then the process that is used to develop some neural chips. The chip designer sets up a situation that they want a chip to solve. They run chips through a series of test. The ones that do the best on the test survive and are breed together. The chip designer then can make modifications to the test or the chips when they deem it necessary. As to why God may have chosen this method to create us and the life around us, I do not know. As for creationist, that refuse to acknowledge what science has discovered and proven, why did God create that evidence.

OldGreyEagle,

I think the difference between my experience, is I did have access to gun and never consider using them once against the kids who were picking on me. I was taught from a very young age that I was responsible for my actions and also what guns could do and that I should not use them with out my father's supervision. That is what I was getting at that the new responses we are seeing to the bullies is not a change in bullies, but a change or lack of training from parents for all kids in self-discipline.

Mommascout,

Some suggestions that I have for you if you are looking for a Martial Arts class for your kids (and I would recommend it for both) are as follows.

1. I would look for a class that focuses on the following while teaching the skills involved.

Repect

Self-discpline

Good academics

Fun

Pride in their achievements

Physical fitness

2. The first thing they should learn in the class is that the skills they learn should never be used outside of class except for practice.

The last thing I would say if the class does not teach the same basic philosophy of Scouting, do not sign your sons up. The purpose of Martial Arts is to teach the same ideas of Scouting in a different format. Also do not sign your sons up to teach them self-defense that is a side benefit of the class and not primary purpose of the classes.

sctmom,

I have printed out your suggestion and will include them in my training material for my pack.

I have two additional suggestions.

First find a troop and work with them on going to more then the minimum trips and meetings. The more the better. This will give the Webelos a chance to observe how meetings and campouts work.

Second in everything to Webelos do have them function as a patrol.

OldGreyEagle,

I can see where you are coming from. I was overweight, non-athelic, bookish, and due to the fact that I was not aware of a slang term was accused of being homosexual. I was constantly the butt of mean spirited jokes, name calling, and being beat up (I did fight back and was good at taking care of my-self so most did not try twice). This started about 4th grade and continued until about 9th grade (it only stop because I was not much fun). All of this caused a lot of anger, which unimportantly I directed towards my brother.

Was all this fun? No. But from this I learned the following. One to control my anger, since giving into got me into a lot of trouble (this has help in dealing with my own children). To ignore annoying people who just want to push my buttons. To look at my self in a realistic way and to accept the facts about my self that are not perfect and to admit those imperfections (this is a course the first step to fixing those items that can be fixed). And since I came from a family that does a lot of good nature teasing, I learned to determine the difference between that and hurtful teasing. I also learned to make fun of my self to put people off balance.

I have read the article mentioned and support what it said. I think that if I were faced with a Scout that had that type of anger I would do the following. First I would try to find out why he felt the way he did. I would talk to him about my past and then explain that violence against others is not proper and will not be tolerated. I would then talk to the parents about the problem and ask them what I can do to help their son control his violence. The main cause of this problem today is not a short attention span; violence in movies, TV, and games; or any other of the current things we blame it on. It is that kids are not taught self-discipline, and the best way to teach self-discipline is by punishing bad behavior and rewarding good behavior. Doing one and not the other does not work since it send only half the message, which is worst then sending no message. Just punishing bad behavior without rewarding good behavior just teaches that the child is bad and awarding good behavior and ignoring the bad makes for a brat that thinks they are above the law. One last point AT NO TIME can you excuse bad behavior due to circumstances. This ignores one very important point that even though we can not control other behaviors, we are responsible for how we respond and are responsible for the consequences for those behaviors

No the Cubmaster does not have the right to decide what position you will serve in. Neither does the Committee chair or Charter Organization rep. The only person that has any power over your membership is the Charter Organization rep and the Council that you are members of, and that is only do deny you membership if you do not meet membership requirements.

Red Feather,

I think you have a point about how these types of jokes can teach people to question. I have found that in todays society too many people do not question what they are being told and expect things as fact without questioning them. I have been doing things like this to my kids in the family and now they will always verify something they are told if it does not make since. Now the thing I have been doing are not to the level of some of the trick played here (for example I have told them we were going to have chicken covered in flour and boiled in oil for dinner/fried chicken), so I kind of wish that there was a way to teach people to think and question things when they do not make sense. One of the problem I have had with this topic is the problem seeing how people could fall for some of these. I believe that I would not of fallen for some and I know that my kids would not fall for them.

I think for Boy Scouts there is no problem with name tags as long as they show only the first name. For Cubs I would not recommend them. A Scout will not be tricked that a person knows them just by the fact that a person calls out their first name, a Cub could get that impression. I think having the last name on the tag would give some one too much information about the Scout. The idea about the red cross for the first aid trained Scout is nice, but is it need. I would hope that a Scout that was first aid trained would render aid and would not have to be sought out.

Bob and Ed,

I can see both of your perspective. A situation came up when my son was deciding what merit badges to take for his first summer camp. He decided to take the swimming and first aid. The swimming his SM had no problem with, the first aid was a different issue. We had not check out the prerequisite for the badge before hand and were not aware that he needed to complete the first aid requirement for 2nd and 1st class. Instead of saying no to the first aid badge, he explained the situation to my son and then told him if he could complete the prerequisite in the first few days of camp, he could join the first aid merit badge class. Too me this is the best of both worlds, he both followed the rules and also explained his issues with my son taking the badge. Ed, in your case I would suggest that instead of saying no to a badge you should explain to both the scout and the parent what your issues are with the scout taking the badge is and make sure that they understand. Bob, I can see Ed, position and I would much rather have a SM that would suggest that maybe, it might be better for my son to wait a year on a badge due to what ever factor, then to have my scout get to camp and have problems in earning the badge, because the SM keep quite.

LittleBillie

First, if I understand you correctly the two distinctions are as follows:

1) The behavior is natural for the chimps. I agree with you on that in that since they do not have the intelligence to distinguish right from wrong they are doing what makes them feel good.

2) The other distinction you are making is that this in not part of a power play among the individuals, but instead it is away of rendering comfort. I have two issues with this. First I do not believe you will accept this explanation if you found a member of your family comforting your preteen or teenage child in this manner. Second, from what I know about the society of chimps every interaction between two chimps does involve either gaining protection from someone else or gaining support of someone else. This being the case it does involve a power play in the troop.

The last example you gave about the mother and her child stroking her breast. I have not heard anything about that so I can not comment.

BTW: The reason why you have not had people discuss the bonobo chimps before is because they are a rare species of chimps that most people are not familiar with, and they could not challenge you on that.

P.S. I also believe that you I have both gotten our points across, at least I have for the moment, and unless you bring forth a fact that I am not aware of I will not be responding to this subtopic.

Thank you for the debate.

My point is more along these lines. If an organization takes a stand against another organization stronger morals, then the first organization loses all standing when it tries to enforce it's morals. In this case the BSA has stated that, based the morals that the leadership of the BSA wants to promote a gay leader is unacceptable. Now I can accept that Broward counties school board can have a problem with that and that is okay with me. But when Broward county takes punitive action against the BSA because of that rule and only that rule (keep in mind that the BSA does not endorse any type of harassment of gays, just that they do not want them to be a member of their organization and if they ever did endorse harassment I would be strongly against that and leave the organization and take my boy with me) I find that wrong. If Broward County had just left the BSA alone and treated them like another organization, I would have not problem with their ruling in this case. Just so you understand the position that I am taking in this post is not for or against gays in the BSA instead it is that I think Broward County is using a double standard. They are saying to the BSA you must accept members to your organization that you do not approve because of their behavior, but we do have to right to remove members from our organization that we do not approve of because of their behavior.

One last thing, in my opinion behavior is the driving factor. For example I would have no problem dealing and socializing with an individual who has the genetic markers for alcoholism, but does not drink. If they get drunk, I will put as much distance between them and me that I can.

Yes, Broward County was one of the counties that tried to ban the Boy Scouts for excluding homosexuals. Second the reason this teacher was fired was not because he did anything illegal, but that the county had a problem with his morals. So my question is what makes Broward Counties morals more valid then the Boy Scouts morals?

A double standard anyone.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-cskl19jun19.story?coll=sfla-news-broward

Bob White,

Thanks for the information. I think for now I will help out with training at the district level. I did that for the the Webelos leader training and now have the outline for that class. Thank you again.

Bob White, I hope you can help me out with this. I have just excepted the position of Pack Trainer in my Pack. Previously I was a Den Leader and Webelos Den leader and took on this position, and because I wanted the Pack to have access to my experience as a Den Leader in the future, I took on this position. My problem is that my District/Council have not schedule any training for the Pack Trainer position so I am at a lost of exactly what I am suppose to do. One area that I have some confusion about is training. According to what I have read about the position, I should be getting training material from District/Council and holding training classes at the Pack level. Unfortantly when I asked my District Executive about this he said I was just to encourage new leaders to get training. My understanding that is one of the duties of the Cub Master. So how much training should I be doing and where do I get the material to be used for the training?

littlebillie

If you want to take issue with me on a use of a single word, I will grant you that complete may have been a better word for me to use. This did not change the fact that you provided an example to support your position without, suppling a fact which was also important to this discussion that would have hurt your position. When someone in a debate, which this is, does that, I consider it to be at the minimum misleading.

littlebillie

When mentioning the bonobo chimps, you forgot to mention that they engage in pedophilia. If you are going to used this as support for homosexuality, please be honest and mention all the facts that can be brought froth from your examples.

My suggestion is to tell the parents to bring the scouts uniforms for any opening, closing and campfire events at the campout. As for the rest of the day I would suggest a pack t-shirt if available, if not regular play clothes.

Merlyn_LeRoy:

First you are jumping to the conclusion, that Pascal and I are talking about one God in particular. I do not know exactly what Pascal was talking about when he posted his gamble, but in my case I am only talking about a Creator of all that is around us. It is this same Creator that in most religions have promised good things to those who believe. I hope this give you some understanding of where I am coming from. I could care less if you believe in God, The Great Sprit or Mother Earth. To me they are all one and the same and only the way to worship that Creator is different, and if I am wrong then so be it, I did my best to make the right choice.

Second in your response you mention all the Evil that has been done in the name of Religion. I will grant you that, but you are forgetting that comes from our human interpretation of religion documents. Even though these documents were given to man by their gods and goddess, these documents were also written and translated by man, and in that process errors will occur, we are only human. On that point as humans there exist among us many who will use any means necessary to get power over others. One of these means has been in the pass religion. This does not mean that religion is wrong or bad, it just means that the humans are humans and if we can use something to our advantage, a lot of us will do so. There are a lot of examples in of things that have been used in the manner in the pass. For example you have the state in use today by China and previously by the USSR. You have race that was used in South Africa and to a small part is still used by people in this country today. Even your non-belief in a Creator can be used to drive a wedge between people and to gain power by those who want it.

Finally, all I will ask you is to re-examine you non-belief and make sure that it exist not because of the fallacy of us imperfect humans, but because you truly believe that what exist is all that there is. This is the last I will post on this subject in this forum. If you would like to know what evidence I have used to make my decision about the truth please let me know.

Sorry the chart got messed up when I posted it.

Here is an easier chart to read. (I hope)

Believe Do not Believe

God G B

No God N N

From what I understand about Pascals wager, Weekender overstated the wager. When I first heard about it was explained in the chart that I have recreated from memory here. As you can see the thing had nothing to do with what belief system was correct it dealt with just the existence of a God or not the existence of a God and How believing or not believing in each case can effect you.

+-------+------------------------+

| |Believe |Do not Believe |

+-------+------------------------+

|God |G |B |

+-------+--------+---------------+

|No God |N |N |

+-------+--------+---------------+

G = Good things will happen to you when you die

B = Bad things will happen to you when you die

N = It does not matter when you die

Merlyn_LeRoy, I point you to Pascal final conclusion that the only way he could lose is if there was a God and he did not believe.

I will admit that if this is the only reason you believe, it is a poor reason. As far as what religion is correct, I will find that out too late to do anything about it. All I can do is take all the information given to me and make a decision based on my belief on what is from God and what is from man. I will allow each to make their choice on their own beliefs.

As far was what this has to do with the initial subject, not much except it was brought up by speculation of the beliefs behind the AHG. For that answer, if you are interested, I suggest you ask them.

I do admit that my post was a little of topic, I was mainly replying to sctmoms post about some problems she had experienced and how I was going to fix them in my Pack and Troop.

As far as a snappy ad campaign is necessary and National should really consider doing one. They should show all levels of scouting and they should have scouts tell about the great things they are doing in Scouts. The focus should be on the outdoors and leadership program. Think about how many boys would be interested in a program that not only took them on a great outdoor trip, but also had the boys point out that they planned and ran the trip. This type of campaign might also get parents and current scout leaders thinking that their troops and packs can be better if they ran it the way National recommends. So in short show the boys doing the things boys at each age group wants to do and show it done in the correct way, using real boys with real stories. That in my opinion that best way to run an add campaign.