emb021

Unit Committees don't vote. They are not intended to be "deliberative groups" (as we say in parliamentary terms). They don't make decisions, but each have something to do in supporting the unit.

The COR acts on behalf of the IH, and THEY decide who the leaders of the CO's unit are. THEY have the power of 'hiring/firing", tho some may give that to the CC (or the COR may BE the CC).

But the Committee has no say in that, despite what some think. I believe this is clearly stated in the literature, but not sure.

Sounds like the rumors have grown.

What I heard on FB was they shutdown the Sea Scout Committee. Nothing about shutting down units. I'm not even sure how many Ships they have.

From what I heard on FB, people are working on this. Saw I comment from the SR Boatswain.

"I get the feeling this only the first time we are going to hear about AHG pulling this stunt."

'AHG pulling this stunt'? I don't think so. This is some local AHG leaders not understanding what the MOU grants them. Don't blame the national AGH people for this. The local leaders don't understand that they can't just show up at a BSA event an expect to be allowed to attend.

"BSA has repeatedly stated its opposition to diversity."

No it hasn't.

The BSA has long be diverse, in times when other groups weren't.

The BSA has welcomed people of a wide range of ethnic backgrounds (blacks, american indians, jews, etc) when they weren't welcome in general society.

The BSA has welcomed people of a wide range of faiths (catholic, jewish, buddhist, muslim, etc) again, when they weren't always welcome in general society.

Diversity, however, is not and should not be a primary principle or value that needs to be pushed, as some seem to think.

"Is the Venturer/Ranger Handbook the standard handbook?"

Yes. The Venturer part of the Handbook (used to be available separately) has always been the standard handbook for all Venturers.

The Venturing Leader Manual is really intended for crew leaders (both youth and adults). As not all Venturers are interested in that, few get it (or need it).

The Quest, TRUST, and NOVA booklets are for those wanting to pursue those awards.

"I am sorry I don't remember which thread or who posted it. But I do remember seeing it here in the last few months.

Someone had driectly asked National Venturing Staff about this situation and the gist of it was, that even if one was youth and the other adult, BSA placed married people sleeping in a tent together over generic YPT rules."

Yes.

I don't know if others got that answer, but I got that answer from the then National Venturing Division people in the early years of the program: marriage trumps the matter of fraternization.

Some felt they could argue the point about fraternization when the Venturing YPT training is VERY clear on the matter that a venturing adult (21 and older) and a venturing youth (under 21) could not be dating, and if they wanted to do so, the adult had to leave the crew. This is stated in the video.

This is both an issue if the people are dating when they are both under 21, and then one becomes 21 and still wants to be part of the crew, as well as when a youth and adult met within the crew and want to start a relationship.

As noted, being married trumps that and makes it a non-issue.

Funny thing is the WCA is/was part of a WOSM initiative.

But WOSM has dropped the WCA and replaced it with a "world environmental award", which the BSA has not done.

"If a chapter chief is a district committee member, what about a chapter vice chief? Is a lodge vice chief a council committee member as well? "

Only if the local people decide to do so.

As per the literature from National, only the Lodge/Chapter Chiefs are on these committees more or less automatically.

All-

Got this from another list.

The Venturing shirt is being restocked in the Scout Stores.

Its the same shirt they took off the shelves, being put back. So no change in them.

""The caveat I always go with, is these youth should NOT be wearing silver or gold loops UNLESS they are doing stuff in those positions. If that OA youth leader (or Venturing leader) is doing stuff as a 'regular' troop/crew member, they shouldn't be wearing the loops (or the office patches)."

"I might go with EMB's take if our crew used the national uniform for its unit uniform. As it is, the only youth who have green shirts are/were VOA officers, and they only pull them out for multi-unit activities. Even if my crew were "kelly greeners," I wouldn't be bothered with seeing silver or yellow epaulets at a unit meeting or public activity. It would remind everyone of the different levels at which they may serve."

If the only time those Venturers were wearing a Venturing uniform, then my comments don't really apply, do they? If they are wearing a crew t-shirt when doing stuff as a crew member, and the green Venturing uniform as a council or higher leader, that's fine. The comments are for those youth whose crew does wear the Venturing uniform (something many around here do).

"Obviously, if someone seems to be having a power complex because of the patches they are carrying, I'd take issue with them. If it was a youth, we'd be having a conference. Still, I'd rather ask for a change in behavior than ask for a change in uniform."

Not so much as 'power complex', but an ego thing.

We had a Venturer in my council who took on a Venturing position beyond the council. But the funny thing is, they really never did the job (a whole other issue). We NEVER saw him at any Venturing event, but EVERY time I saw him at an OA event, he was always wearing his gold loops, tho he wasn't doing anything there AS that position. (vs. if we had a section/regional/national OA officer who might do the same. I WOULD expect them to be wearing gold loops and the appropriate office patch). It seemed more of an ego thing that he could run around with gold loops.

On the Venturing side, those youth who are Council Venturing Presidents & District Venturing Presidents (and there ARE office patches for those positions) can wear silver loops.

Those youth who are Area, Region, National Venturing Presidents/Vice-Presidents (and there ARE office patches for most of those positions) can wear gold loops.

The caveat I always go with, is these youth should NOT be wearing silver or gold loops UNLESS they are doing stuff in those positions. If that OA youth leader (or Venturing leader) is doing stuff as a 'regular' troop/crew member, they shouldn't be wearing the loops (or the office patches).

"Age has nothing to do with connecting with youth and winning respect. If that were the case, Scouting would have died 100 years ago. "

True.

Consider the age of some of the founders: BP, Dan Beard, even Seton when they formed scouting or their organizations.

When I speak of Venturing uniforms, I always point out the official National one, which I wear.

BUT, I always point out there are other options, and cite examples I have seen. These include:

* aloha shirts (with all the patches, as you see here)

* "fishing shirts" (again, sometimes with all the patches, sometimes just an embroidered logo)

* polo shirts (once, with all the patches)

* tshirts (with either an embroidered or usually a silk screen design)

* denim shirt (not yet seen, but could be done with embroidered design)

* vest with patches (seen once with a crew/troop located in a youth detention facility)

"Change for the sake of change without any real idea of what is being accomplished or why it is being done. No vision. "

Agree.

I've stated my opinion on this on the Venturinglist on Yahoo Groups. National put together this super-secret group to look at the Venturing program that, AFAIK, wasn't a very good representation of the program. No youth apart from the National Cabinet, no adult female leaders, and certainly no loud-mouth supporters of the program etc.

Is there a problem with the Venturing program? Numbers indicate there is. But what IS the problem? Did they spent any time figuring it out? For me, the possibilities are:

* The program

* promotion/support of the program

* a combination of the above two

Thing is, you can have the greatest program in the world, but if the world doesn't know about it, it won't succeed.

The problem I see is that National and councils do NOT promote & support the program (certainly not to the level we see Boy Scouts & Cub Scouts get). All the support and promotion happening is due to the work of those at the grassroots (within my current council, I'm the only cheerleader for Venturing). Successful crews, like BP has, is due to the work of their leadership, NOT anything done by National/Councils. Obviously we want to duplicate the success of such crews, but this is very hard without the help from N/C, which isn't there.

BUT, instead of addressing this issue, National has got it in their heads that the problem is with the program, so they instead will diddle with the program. This is where we got nonsense like the "One Oath" effort and rumors of radical revamp of the Venturing awards (because somehow the current awards are 'confusing' or something).

Maybe you need to encourage to creation of some kind of recognition in your council.

In my old home council, the OA lodge started a tradition of planting a tree and setting up a plaque for those long serving members who had passed away at our camp.

The naming of awards for outstanding leaders is also common.

Female uniforms have always been shown with the shirt tucked in.

"This is where things get a little rocky. The sash is not a part of the "national" venturing uniform. But, it's within a crew's right to design their uniform to carry whatever elements they think is important. Although I never met a venturer plastered with regalia from tigers/brownies on up, there's nothing stopping it. The only thing I've seen in writing was the restriction on tan BSA shirts and red epaulets."

Keep in mind that while crews can design their own uniforms, its not so "anything goes" as you imply.

If the national venturing uniform is worn (forest green shirt with charcoal gray pants/shorts), then you MUST follow the Insignia Guide. The crew does NOT get to decide what is worn on the green venturing shirt or where.

The sash seems to be kind of a gray area, because in the old days of Exploring, they DID create merit badge sashes in forest green and sky blue for the Explorers and Air Scout/Explorers to wear. (but nothing for the Sea Scouts). So there is precedence.

Besides, merit badge sashes are worn at formal occasions ONLY. Not at regular meetings, so does it really matter?

There are various groups out there, mainly formed by certain churches.

There is Royal Rangers.

There is Anwan (sp?)

There is Christian Service Brigade.

I can tell you that RR and CSB are almost a copy of the BSA. RR even has a OA-like group, but based on mountain stuff. The older CSB manuals I have look like copies of BSA literature (and the group was formed by a former BSA scouter).

""Equipment Patch" that is a new one on me. If a boy got a 50 miler I would never fuss if he put it on the back--it is more of an accomplishment than a Camporee patch--you get that for just attendance. "

Thing is, not all insignia is intended for the uniform.

Some are ONLY for "equipment" (read: your backpack/knapsack). This includes the 50 Miler, Historical Trails Award, and Paul Bunyan Award.

Some are ONLY for your swim trunks. Mile Swim, Lifeguard BSA, etc

Some are ONLY for NON-uniform clothing. Mainly certain pins.

My Philmont Arrowhead is actually the standard dangle patch I almost always wear (with my OA 75 Anniversary Award ribbon & vigil pin, in the philmont arrowhead plastic holder).

I rarely remove it, and then only temporary to wear another dangle.

"I always thought Venturing borrowed the youth til' 21 thing from the OA... "

AFAIK, the OA doesn't enter into it. Frankly, I have no idea when the OA settled on that age (I've not researched that). For Venturing, this was a continuation of Exploring policy that dates back to sometime in the 60s. I think it might have ties to the final dropping of the Rover program (which was for those 18-21), afterwhich the upper age limit of Explorers was raised to 21 as well.

(I think this all occurred in 1965 when they made several changes to Exploring, but am uncertain.)

"I agree with you except for the dating part, because that is not specified in any literature, and outside of the crew activities is not even enforceable by the BSA or anyone else. I think your source was just putting his own interpretation into the mix."

Dating is considered fraternization. Not allowed between youth & adults. This is CLEARLY stated in the venturing adult YPT training video.

Never said that outside crew activities could be enforced.

My sources were Bill Evans and Brad Harris, the 2 professions that created Venturing. I think they would understand the policies they created.

I asked them because a similar 'discussion' had been going on on the then existing national venturing email list. The scenario given was a couple that got married when both where between 18 & 21 (legal) and still remained in the crew. What happens when one of them is now 21 and the other under. Some were trying to apply the 'no fraternization' rule against them (the 21 adult would have to leave the crew). Response is: marriage 'trumps' that. None issue.

(This message has been edited by emb021)

All-

I actually asked the pros within the Venturing Division years back.

Most of you gave out the rules.

A youth (under 21) and an adult (21 and older) can NOT be dating and still be involved with the crew. The adult would need to go.

Being engaged does not have ANY affect.

HOWEVER, if they are married, then this does NOT affect them. They would be treated like any other married couple in scouting.

Marriage 'trumps' this rule. Engagement does NOT.

Also. Our program is the Venturing program, not the Venture program. Let's use the right terms.

Check out Tandy Leather.

They still have stories around the country, a catalog and on-line webstore. They are pretty much THE source for leatherwork.

And they have discounts that scout units take take advantage of, I believe.

2CB: ""It's for the boys" is a reminder we're here as adult leaders of a youth program."

What he says here.

It's a reminder that sometimes must be made.

Yes, there are many benefits from being a scouter. Training. Awards. The activities. But sometimes we have to remind people why we're here. Some forget at times, almost ignoring the kids for themselves.