Eagledad

She thinks that way because she didn’t have a scouting experience as a youth. Patrol method is only limited by adults fears.
 

I used to teach a course teaching adults how to push their fears boundaries out. The adults need to ask themselves what it would take to let the patrols to cook on their own. I’m not a fan of no cooking, but some healthy easy to fix meals might help the adults grow in the program. 
 

Discussion?

Barry

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Forgot one of the most important things... Scout-led! Absolute must. Took it for granted while writing.

I agree, but I have never met a Scoutmaster who didn't think their troop was scout-led. 

I will come up with some things that made me feel really good about our program, but what makes scouting so great is that the rewards change as the program changes and matures. Look forward to those wonderful unexpected rewards too. Many are coming your way.

Barry

4 hours ago, yknot said:

My views are a little different. I think people pretty much have a right to say whatever they think, wherever they want, and it's better to know what those thoughts are. If those views include thinking a certain class of children doesn't belong in a youth organization they are involved with, then they shouldn't still hold an active role within it. If registered leaders hold these views -- that girls in this case, or gay, minority, or non Christian religious scouts in other cases, shouldn't be in scouting in opposition to BSA policy -- then they should not be adult leaders responsible for these children and should step down. It is preferable for people to be honest about how they feel, because otherwise how does a parent know they are unwisely entrusting their child's safety to someone who doesn't think their child should be there in the first place? Broader society is largely trying to move past the point where you are not welcome because you are Black or Jewish or Muslim or Gay or a Girl. There are organizations you can belong to if you still hold those views, but BSA is no longer one of them. Parents of any of these classes of children in scouting have an expectation that their child is being entrusted to registered adult leaders who support BSA policies. 

This, by far is the most hostile post I ever read on this forum. Can you imagine how many of our kids would get education and skills instruction if every teacher, little league coach, dance instructor, and so forth who doesn't agree with all the policies of the organization stayed away from kids? There would be nobody.

This forum has had hundreds of these kinds of discussions for 30 years, but there is a difference between posters today and the earlier years; Posters today don't want to learn why folks think differently, and they want to censor any speech they disagree with.

Ironically, free speech is how bad policies that can be dangerous to youth and adults are exposed. We live in a dangerous time.

Barry

Whatever each one of us wants to think we are, there does seem to be a predictable tendency to diverge away from the center to one side or the other; instead of toward the center where we each seem to think we should be. 

Barry

20 hours ago, yknot said:

I'm not sure that's a great example to pick, because when Tigers were added to the program, verbal or physical threats weren't made against those children by other scouts or adult leaders. I don't know why people think it's OK though when it's about girls. Protecting children shouldn't require discussion. It's not censure ship to expect that registered and trained youth leaders in a youth organization protect and support the youth in their care. 

It depends on the interpretation of threats. I believe that bringing in girls has created, well lets just say a less welcoming environment for boys. There have been several discussions over the years of how adults are pushing the girls program and performance over the boy's program. And there was even mention of how the differences between girls and boys put the boys at a disadvantage in this program. I stand for the fairness and safety of all the scouts. But, in these discussions, it is fairness and safety of the boys' side of scouts.

I understand that emotions are powerful for forcing change, but I'll be here to keep reminding the list of the negative effects of change just like I have been doing for the last 25 years.

Barry

12 minutes ago, yknot said:

Change is indeed painful but we are talking about adult leaders who are responsible for children so there really isn't much leeway to accommodate adult issues. Adults who resent the presence of some of the children they are supposed to be supporting and protecting probably shouldn't be in the organization six years in no matter what other value they bring. 

There is a huge difference between not agreeing with a policy and passionately working with youth. I'm a firm believer that the Tiger Cub program is the cause of thousands of families dropping out of the BSA, but I found a way to raise our numbers. I believe education about the struggles from policy changes is healthy because it provides dialogue for ideas to approach and improve or fix the issue.

Sad that so many folks feel that censure is the only way to stop discussions they don't like. 

Barry

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Just  remember Venturing celebrated their 25th year last year, and people still call them venture scouts and venture crews, not Venturers and Venturing Crews.

Or Explorers. 

Barry

21 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I agree that there is a strong narrative around saying that everyone has to 'pick a side', but I don't know that the narrative is correct. Why are there only two 'sides'? Why are these the sides? Why must I buy an entire 'side' hook, line, and sinker? Reeks of false dichotomy to me. I don't think the world works that way, and I think - to your later point - that in order to preserve scouting as a place to find healthy acceptance, we need to reject that basic frame. Everyone should feel welcome and accepted as they are, quirks and all, in Scouts. That can't happen if scouts/scouters are on two different 'sides'. And while I've read various suggestions for where the narrative came from, I think this is a case of "pull the arrow right out". Solve the problem without first comprehensively analyzing why it came to be. We don't have to participate in sorting people into two absolute categories. Or, if we do, the categories 'scout' and 'non-scout' make sense 😄

 

I like what you're saying, but your posts don't reflect more than two sides. In the first discussion we had about mixed-gender scouts, you, in so many words, told me to butt out. I didn't and don't take offense, your style of moderate "my way or the highway" is common these days. But, how can you encourage a less pick a side discussion if you intimidate the discussion to go one sided? Is it so hard to not die on the hill of your opinion? 

That is why I keep bringing up using the Scout law for Civil discussions. The Scout Law is common to all of us, so we don't have to lecture or dictate our own set of rules on the group. But, allowing other opinions without intimidating our own opinion on the group takes practice. Especially if that style of discussion is part of our character.

This forum will be a perfect place for you to practice listening without leveraging your opinion of how the discussion should be moderated because you are about to become a leader in the troop program.

As you know, we are not supposed to shape the youth into the scouts we think they should be, we mentor them so they willingly shape themselves into young adults of character and integrity. We do that by giving them respecting them as equal adults and giving them opportunities and space to think about how their decisions affect those around them. We want them to reflect on their actions of ethics and morality through the common filter of the Oath and Law. 

Youth learn 90% of their behavior by watching others who influence them. Actions, not words. They basically shut out long judging lectures and diatribes. Youth of the troop age are doubly hard because they resent being talked down to when they are told THEY are supposed to learn from their actions. They open up to more curious non-judgemental single-sentence questions from trusted mentors. Even more powerful is showing trust by walking away after presenting the question to allow time and space for reflecting on the question. Our human pride often puts up an instant defense mode because wrong actions hurt. Walking away saves them from putting up shields and instead lets them ponder on the questions. 

We can't change a young adult to be a better ethical and moral decision-maker, they have to decide that on their own. A good day is when the scout comes back for further discussion on the question. 

Future discussions in the forum are going to be tough because the progressive culture is pushing harder to neutralize judgment of moral decisions. I once heard a gay activist explain they are pushing god out of the culture so homosexuality can be considered normal. In other words, taking god out of the discussion takes the guilt out of the behavior.

You have already commented on allowing atheists in the program. That is next. BUT, KNOW THIS, when the atheists move in, god in the Law and oath will be pushed out. God and immoral guilt don't mix. God is the focal point of morality and ethics. A scout leader never has to take responsibility for defining morality because that burden is on god. Once god is gone, moral and ethical behavior will depend on the unit's leadership, not the scout's personal moral guidance, which is usually their parents. 

So, these discussions will get more complex and two-sided. This is going to be good practice to add a personal opinion without trying to force the direction of the discussion. This is also a good place to practice those one-sentence questions and step back to allow responses. I think you will be amazed at how intellectual the discussions can go when posts take on an educational tone instead of accusatory or judgmental.

Barry

17 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I'm also hoping that people will notice in their reaction that aggression towards women is disallowed even by the latest traditional male gender role, so further unity regardless of what one thinks of gender roles...

I'm curious, what is the latest traditional male gender role that is considered a threat?

I'm one of those people who believe mixing females into the patrols puts the males at a disadvantage for personal growth, and possibly some harm by the adults. So, I struggle with the idea that girls are the ones at risk. I've seen way too much overhype on this forum to not be concerned for the boys. One poster was bragging just the other day about all the girl cubs on the podium after the derby races. What was the point of the statement? Were boys also on the podium? We don't know, but we can imagine that adults were saying plenty of the same type things in front of the boys. Normal adults doing normal adult things I guess. But that is an example of what boys will have to endure in mixed patrols. 

Barry

How can a troop over ride the camp director?

Barry

I guess it depends on what side of the fence one stands on where the haters are. Just look at the title of this discussion, The BSA should get tough on scouts and scouters? One fairly new scouter even suggested I be censored on a discussion of mixed genders. Seems some folks are willing to push hostility to a new level to get what they want. So, explain to me why I should encourage my grandkids to join the BSA in this hostile environment. The game has lost the purpose.

Barry

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

If boys-only troop wants to exist, more power to them.  Go for it.

If boys only patrols want to exist, fine.  ... I fear a hard single-gender patrols a rule will just be circumvented just like the current separate boy troop and girl troops that are really interacting together.  

I think the choice for single-gender troops and patrols is the right approach. 

Barry

2 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Ah, here is where it gets actionable for us scouters. I agree completely. 

Advancement can become "scouting materialism", in the sense that you're talking about. If scouts weigh their own worth as a human being based on their advancement, something's not quite right, but we're the right folks to look for that and correct as necessary. If nothing else, if others around us don't see the problem, we can just straight up point out the misunderstanding to the scout. Their essential worth as a human being does not depend on scout rank or advancement at all, and never did. Just being together and having wild fun is where the fun memories are at, anyway. 🏕️🏞️⛰️🎒🥾

Here is a good start from an SPL.

http://scoutmaster.org/boy led troop.pdf

9 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

The term upstander versus bystander has been used in anti-bullying programs for probably 15 - 20 years in many school systems.  Exactly what we would hope a Scout would be if he or she witnessed bullying.

I guess. It’s a new term to me. And it’s sad that standing up for someone today is considered noble. In a time when being offended is considered a right and safe places are the norm, acting scout-like requires courage and is truly noble.

Barry
 

We would welcome the lad, but require a parent because while he is old enough, he may not have the maturity to suddenly camp with a bunch of strangers. The BSA looses more scouts at this age because the experience of the sudden change of culture can be overwhelming (scary) especially on an overnight camping experience. And I would suggest doing only one night for the same reason. Encourage a patrol to take him under their wing with the parent hanging out with the adults. It will likely go very well.
 

Barry

6 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Just read something someone said on social media that seems quite relevant here.

"The issue with a culture war based epistemology, where all things are seen through the lens of cultural war. Will always lead directly to conspiracy theories. For when you see normal people doing normal things, through that lens, it must take on all the misaligned power of a conspiracy against you personally. This happens to both the right and left side of politics. Yet more frequently on the right. Anyone's vision of a "correct" culture, will always fail. For culture is never isotropic."

We are all here in our role as scouters. In that role, our loyalty is to each other and the scout movement.

Strange post. Experience cannot by definition be a conspiracy. Yet several members here still push their ideal program as best or preferred despite experiences showing to the contrary.

Doesn’t really matter, when left or right becomes part of the definition with one more so than the other, it’s just bias hype encouraging more bias hype. And, it show’s motivation for the post.

Loyalty to each other doesn’t mean hyping misaligned program practices over good practices. Expressing, discussing and educating good and successful practices is what this forum is all about.

Barry

6 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

Our new committee chair is absolutely fantastic! It’s just that she’s new to the job just like I am and we are learning pretty much from scratch.

Ah, sounds like you have the right team for a great troop. I also had a great new CC while I was learning. We went from 15 scouts to 100 scouts in five years. It takes a good team willing to change from what doesn't work. Learning is part of the process for growing, and part of the fun.

Barry

10 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

As SM it’s hard to not have some hand in everything.  So you’re probably going to have to do some handholding the first year.

Yep, delegate, delegate, delegate. If you are doing your job right, you really don't have time for that stuff. It's better to stand back the day of loading the cars for summer camp and let others deal with the chaos of final checks, signatures, and so on. You will get plenty of your own questions.

There is also a real benefit for getting parents involved. They will have more pride and buy-in if they are involved.

You really need to find a good CC. They make or break good troops.

Barry

Lots of good ideas here. Who is leading this charge? Should be DE, but you never know their experience. You could be that person, but if you do, delegate, delegate delegate. Running a pack is hard enough without trying to help another. It's OK to have the ideas and let others run with it. But, I would ask for a meeting with the pack adults and ask them how they feel about these ideas and learn their temperament of the situation. You are not there to take advantage of them, you only want to lend a hand. Let them know that.

I have worked with some splits and mergers, so I will help anywhere you need, but you have already go very good suggestions.

Good luck.

Barry

Why do they want to merge?

Barry

19 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

What productive aim did you have in mind when you started this conversation, @Mrjeff? Still waiting on those examples of what you're talking about, for the second time. Nobody else seems to know or has even offered a guess.

How many conversations start with “I have to vent”?
 

Does there have to be a productive aim if the discussion is civil and managed within the Scout Law? Sometimes the best reaction to a discussion one doesn’t enjoy participating is to choose not to participate.

Barry

12 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

 

But, as a mathematician, statistician, risk manager, observer of human behavior, and generally cogitating biped, I do use groups and categories to discriminate (and by that, I mean the un-hijacked definition of the word) with others,  simply to conduct my daily life and stay alive.

I tried using reason in a discussion a couple weeks ago; emotion and cultural loyalty is strong. I don’t think the boys have chance of a fair program in the BSA anymore. Honestly, I didn’t see it coming.

Barry

This is a humbling well-written article. Most, if not all, of the contents of this article have been discussed on this forum many times over the years. And we are just getting started. 

I love this scouting stuff. 

Barry R

57 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

 

What we can do as individuals, though, is consciously create an organizational culture where the patrol method is The Way. Talk like it is (even when it isn't... yet), explain it to everyone new to scouting. Easier said than done of course, but without engagement from a critical mass of leaders of creating such a culture organizational practices won't make a difference.

 

I wish that was the solution, but the problem is more of a lack of experience. And more importantly, a lack of a BSA youth Scouting experience. Even with all the training, inexperienced adults still struggle with the idea that youth managing their program activities actually develops character and integrity. Or, they believe it works, but just don't know how. 

So, these adults tend to fall on their training and start setting goals for scouts to advance. They build a First Class skills program where most of the activities have an objective of advancing in rank and stature. The adult nature tends to look at success by a person's stature. Advancement fits that perception perfectly. The adults drive a program of pushing advancement and rank. Advancement is one of eight methods, but it and leadership become the primary methods. 

What these adults are missing is the experience of managing the program and learning from the consequences of the decisions. And, The program loses a lot of fun because the adults will push what they think should be fun for scouts. One such scoutmaster called me after running his troop for 6 months asking what additional activities he could add on campouts. His scouts were getting bored with his usual program ideas, which were mostly advancement-driven. I asked him how much free time was scheduled. He asked me to define free time. I said a time when the scouts can do anything they want for their pleasure. He said that he wouldn't schedule anything like that because the scouts would just run off and get in trouble. Hmmm. 

That may be on the more extreme side, but it illustrates, the thinking of someone who doesn't have a youth experience. I would guess that about 80 of the troops have a First Class advancement type of program, which is a full program created around practicing scout skills. Most Troops have learned how to compensate their programs with some fishing, shooting, hiking, and so forth. But, that still leaves the older scout basically repeating the same program year after year bored out of their minds by age 14. This is why 14 is the magic age of moving on. Some quit, and some go on to Venturing Crews. The most common question I had from Scoutmasters while I was the District Membership Chairman was how to keep their older scouts. And they didn't like the answer that they needed to change their program. But, the other 20 percent had a different program where scouts ran a program based on adventure, not advancement.

I don't blame these adults, they are doing the best they can with what little they know. 

As the BSA brings in more adults without a youth scouting experience, the more the Patrol Method will get watered down. Eventually, the scouts of these watered-down programs will become leaders for their kids and push the watered-down method.

The forum has had this discussion several times over the last 25 years and the conclusion is always to keep the experienced scouters around to help the new leaders. But, then you have members in discussions like this one spouting that the old-timers they don't like change. Meanwhile, membership continues to drop and history repeats itself.

But, maybe that is OK. As this discussion brought to light, for many, the BSA's Mission of developing youth who make moral and ethical decisions is a lower priority than keeping up appearances with the culture. And it has been that way for many for 40 years. Statistics prove that keeping up cultural appearances costs membership. But, maybe that sacrifice is worth it for those leaders.

As for those of you who do want a more Patrol Method program, I suggest recruiting a couple of adults who were Boy Scouts as a youth. Also, get ahold of the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook and use them as guides to a Youth Run Patrol Method program. They were required reading for all the participants in my Scoutmaster-specific courses.

Barry