Eagledad

>>My answer is pragmatic. If we already ignore this stuff (and I sympathize with desire to remove dead weight), it is just as easy to keep the status quo which is a de facto 'local option' approach. So while I support the removal of the DRP as ineffective or widely ignored and the word, 'God', on similar grounds,...as long as the de facto local option approach continues, I'm OK with that too. In effect, both ways amount to the same thing. The fundamentalists and absolutists will not turn back the clock on this because the numbers are declining and BSA needs to be as inclusive as po

>>he is NOT the BSA PARENT figure who judges the Scout's behavior by taking Advancement away from the Patrol Leaders and holding it hostage to his judgement.>However the author looses integrity when the dialog is interlace with insults, rants and negative comments toward other people or other programs. It goes without saying a negative style of discussion doesnt live of up to any definition of the Scout Law and Oath of any Scouting program of which Im familiar.... Hit the "send" button on that classic example of the BSA "Adult Association Method" a little too quickly there, Barr

Just because they are go-getters doesnt mean they are doing it right. Or that you are doing it right. To me the question isnt whether you should let the PLC realign the patrols or not, the question is why arent the patrols working better as a team and how can we get there? The way I see it, the go-getters are not learning the leadership skills of delegation and the non go-getters are not learning anything about working as a team. Whose job is it to get over that hump? Remember, adults have to learn more, faster, so that they dont hold back the scouts growth. In this case, you have a

gwd, you are a successful SM of a successful boy run program. So I know you have answers to your questions. Your program is the best, why do think that? Barry

>>Talked with their (former) Den Leader last night and she told me that story. Seems she was also afraid herself of joining our troop because "you guys are doing it right and that just scares me." She meant that we do, in fact, turn the leadership over to the boys and allow them to make mistakes along the way.

>>And I don't know that that would be a good thing.

>> Are the alternate requirements for scouts with permanent disabilities something to consider in a case like this?

>>Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function. BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders."

>>But, maybe it would just have been better to forgo having a Spring Camporee this year.

May I suggest that you first talk with the parents. I got in the habit of talking with all parents as I meet them, if time allowed. Sometimes we talked about good things, sometimes it was bad. But I didn't hesitate to describe what was going on and just ask if they saw anything at home. I've been watching these medication discussions and the one thing that frustrated me was the parent not telling me anything, like that fact their son is on some kind of medication. When several of these kinds of situations occurred, I started asking justifying my question with past bad experiences.

Yes, I was just thinking about this runaway thing. I've had one scout who ran away back home and one who ran away from home to come to summer camp. In both cases, I had a long talk with the parents to get a grip on their family situation. True, we are trained scout leaders, but in these kinds of situations, we are really just parents wanting everyone to come home safe. Barry

Depending on the numbers, we may or may not have NSPs, but all our new scouts are assigned a TG responsible for making sure they get a good start. Usually on their first meeting night, the new scouts are going through the exercises to pass the Scout Badge. We do that mostly to teach them our policies for filling out the hand books, asking the SM for a SM Conference and then asking for a BOR. All these responsibilities are up to the scouts, so we show them how to do it right off the bat. Then the new scouts spend the next few weeks learning the basic camping skills getting them ready for

>>I guess what I intended by this thread was to suggest that as long as they're being active in the program, it may be better to have a few happy older TF scout than a bunch of very young 1st Class and Star scouts who are totally at a loss for how to proceed. (And sure, I realize some younger guys really are ready to tear through the ranks - good for them too! - but I suspect that they're not all that common either. Most, though not all, of the boys who I've seen do this in the last couple of years are being pushed - hard - by their parents, rather than responding to some inner drive at

My thoughts are little different Eamonn. I look back on myself when I was young and dont remember looking up at the trees and sky while I was backpacking. I dont remember the smell of the woods or the quiet of the morning as the light fog faintly hung over the field of wild flowers. Did my scouts, my sons, see the romance of men casting flies in the stream as they sought the elusive trout? Are young eager teenagers capable of stopping to watch such things in the background of green mountains or emerald blue lakes? God has a purposeful design of man. I think maybe you didnt go wrong, you j

>>I did of course check this out before plans got made for the trip. As we are going to commercial outfitters, this is not going to be a problem taking our 12-13 year old Scouts. It's a good thing too because we only have two Scouts 14 or over right now!

>>How far do you let boy-led go? Well I think you set the parameters: here's what we (adults) can support. And then you let them fill in the details.... Sometimes we have to make choices.

I have to commend you for your patience. I think you will see a change with in a year, two at most, as he is goes through his physical and mental changes. He is turning into a man and self evaluation in the world is part of that change. Sounds like you are part of a really good troop because in my experience, maturity is based a lot from the experience of the earlier years and if a lot of scouts are accelerating through advancement after age 13 as you say, they are having great experiences. As a mother looking ahead, Im sure this is pretty tough. As someone who watches mothers looking 5

I was thinking tho, is there a time when attendance requirements are important, like safety? Our troop does a lot of High Adventure and we usually spend a lot of time preparing for the trips. We usually highly express the participants (adults and scouts) attend the different sessions to get prepared. While I want to say the participation is given in the text of requirements, we have never asked anyone to leave a crew. However, there are several times I think we should have. Problem is you get into the back country and you are stuck. In just about every case I look back on where a Crew m

>>And, as my husband tells me often, we wouldn't be where we are today if you didn't have the vision of what this troop should be. So, my question: Is it OK for the SM to take care more of the indoor part of the program (leadership training, mentoring, conferences, etc.) and leave the outdoor part to the other adults?

>>Leaders lead and follower make excusses.

>>I don't buy the morality argument because while some people seem to need their values dictated by a rule book, others can reason their way to the same values with no rule book.

>>Actually, the purpose of the cuss cup is to deter cussing. And in all the years we have used it, the cussing as decreased to the point of it no longer being necessary.

I have observed in my own experiences and watching PLCs that generally attendance requirements are an easy attempt for lesser experienced leaders to fix difficult problems. But as the leadership gets more experienced and more skilled at their jobs, the attendance requirements go away. Looking back on it, I dont have a problem with some level of attendance requirements for that reason (with in reason). Its kind of like developing a program using JLT. The BSA JLT (TLT) course isnt really all that good, but is a good start for new troops trying to bring JLTs into their program. If our

>>Mike went on to earn his Eagle & we never had another problem like this again.

>>Or we can just chalk up scout spirit as an ideal to be reached, as defined by the scout and coached by the leadership.