Eagle1982

A neighbor of mine that installs heaters and air conditioners says duct tape is fine on the cold air returns, and AC, but not the hot runners. For those they use an aluminized tape.

It recently came in handy, with a magazine, to splint someone's broken forearm.

Another good tape is 100 MPH tape, designed to patch small holes in small airplanes until a full fix can be done.

My picture and spaced were messed up

__................__ |

| .|__......... __| ..|

| ...|__.......__| ...| On one side you have customers

| .....|__ X __| .....| On the other you have IBM employees

| ...|__.......__| ...| That X in the middle, is the salesman responsible for the acct

| .|__...........__| .|

|__...............__| X is the buffer and conduit between customers and employees.

I remember a IBM exec once telling me a story. IBM was like the picture below

__ __

| __ __ |

| __ __ | On one side you have customers

| __ X __ | On the other you have IBM employees

| __ __ | That X in the middle, is the salesman responsible for the acct

| __ __ |

|__ __| X is the buffer and conduit between customers and employees.

Now in a way, I see Scout events are similar, where the Scoutmaster is the conduit in the middle. Whichever adult is the "responsible" one or the SM for the weekend, needs to be kept in the loop, and know what's going on. There is a proper procedure, and to borrow a military term, chain of command. When you go outside this chain of command, there is often confusion and miscommunication.

We have had a lot of stories about scouts either with cell phones, or borrowed one from another, calling home, and no one informed the people responsible. This caused problems.

People talk about using cell phones as a tool. However, I have yet to hear them talk about a real plan or a use to do such. To have mock search and rescue operations, and communicate via cell phone would be a cool and fun Scout activity.

However: Calling to say you need more bread, or there is construction on a route or whatever is just a crutch for incomplete planning. While you can use the phone as a tool to make those calls, in the end did you make the Scout more dependent on technology and less on quality planning? Especially when the calls are as ridicules as the ones I hear in the grocery store all the time, "Should I get Jif or Skippy, 16 oz or 12 oz?" I guess part of leadership is making a decision, standing by it and accepting responsibility for it. I see too many people that rely on their phone to pass the buck in decision making, and they are not real leaders.

Am I worried that phones are here to stay, and Scouts won't know how to use them unless we teach them during Scout meetings? No, they probably can use them better then we can.

Am I worried about Courtesy and phones? Yes, In Japan, on the Subways, people don't talk on their cell phones, as it would be discourteous to the other riders.

Do we have to remind people about basic phone courtesy? Unfortunately, before business meetings, we have to do it all the time.

I've been involved in Church mission trips with Scout aged kids. Cell phones have always been banned from these trips. The mission trip leaders want the kids focused on the people they are helping, not focused on their friends at home. For Scouts doing service projects, shouldn't the same apply? For Scouts in camp, shouldn't we want their energy focused on working within their patrol to accomplish whatever their objectives are?

All that said, I'd like to see some Scout activities that make real use of a cell phone as a real tool. But for Scouts to have cell phones, and work outside the standard procedures and chain of command, I'm against it.

Tombitt,

Couple questions...

(1) Do you know for certain it is the SM's made up policy? Did the committee agree?

In our troop, the PLC made a no phone policy.

(2) Why is not being allowed a cell phone saying. "You don't trust the 14 year old?" Can't it also be, "Learning to get by without?" or "practicing survival skills when disconnected?" - I just don't see it as a measure of trust, I see it as a measure of willingly going without, a form of lent if you will. Just because I trust my son with a 9mm handgun, samurai sword and stick of dynamite, it doesn't mean I'm going to disregard rules and let him take those camping.

From your own admission, your son has violated the rules more than once. My question to you, you say you are not tethered to your 14 year old, but is he tethered to you? Does he not trust YOU enough to pick him up from a regular meeting without having to call? That's real trust to do that.

I use Lodge dutch ovens, however, I've seen other troops use the camp chef versions with no complaints, and they looked pretty comparable to me. I'd be concerned if the cost was really 3:1 it may be a lower grade oven or product line.

Summercamp was about $65-75 back in 1979 and the early 1980's for my parents. Which is about a 4% increase each year, slightly more than the rate of inflation. Camps have added a lot of buildings and activities since I was a kid.

However, since I have kids either invited to other camps, or in them, I can say that band camp is 2X more expensive (and one less night). The church fun camp is 2.3x and one less night. I don't even want to get into gymnastics camp pricing. Oh, and want to check out the military schools camps (like Marine Military Academy) - those run about $1,000 a week (3,995 for a 4 week program).

I like the dual doors of the Spitfire over the single of the Zeus more, for practicality reasons. The designs that we find works best are the tents with side doors and the fly vestibule space on both sides.

"REI has a nifty ice cream maker for camping use - its a tetrahedron ball design - fill it up with the ingredients, roll it around and in about 20 minutes - fresh ice cream"

Minor hijack, tetrahedron's are 4 equilateral triangles that meet at 4 vertexes (kind of like a 3 sided pyramid)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron

The ice cream ball is not really any regular geometric shape, except a rib reinforced sphere.

Back to topic, Dry ice or deep frozen salt water (freezes lower than 32 degrees) in a decent cooler will keep the ice cream cold enough, although as pointed out, it is more fun to make the ice cream.

Careful jumping to conclusions. You don't know whether the SM has talked with the Scout, got the Scout's input and is simply being courteous and passing that information along to make things easier on a first time Scout. Or whether indeed the SM is picking everything. It's not helpful or kind to bash a SM if it happens to be the first option.

I've had some really good conversations, including some bonding time, around the campfire late at night. If it's after lights out, we keep our voices down and try to be quiet and respect the quiet time.

Is the SM really that loud, or are your tents really that close to the fire? Properly spaced patrols probably shouldn't be able to hear much from the campfire bowl after turning in. Most all I hear is the rustling of the leaves.

Our scouts are pretty good about turning in if they are tired, otherwise we let them stay up and socialize, as long as they respect quiet time for those that want to sleep. Somehow they figure out how to make it work without adult interference.

I like Mr Dave's second option a lot. There are a few potential downsides, which can also be turned into good learning experiences.

(1) Having the cache list the coordinates to the next cache on things like ropes and such may mean the wrong numbers are accidentally entered. Teaches how one number in the string can make a huge difference. (number may fade, wear off, some Scout may turn a 1 into as 4, or a 6 into an 8...)

(2) Entering the UTM numbers on many GPS models is a pain in the arse. Not sure the boys are up for that, but then again, if they are texting all the time, they should be able to figure it out.

Stealing of patrol flags was highly discouraged at the outdoor SM skill training weekend. We heard about the patrol flag theft at the start of our weekend, as it happened one or two training sessions prior.

We also used to play "Kick the can"

We had snowball fights (winter)

hide and seek (with patrols)

A lot of adults think they are helping, when really they are hurting the program. We have adults that constantly break in to whatever the boys are doing to add their two cents. They did it during an outdoor campfire Court of Honor once. The adults didn't realize by breaking in to the boys program, they are making the boys feel bad about the program they put together. The stuff they added was interesting and correct information, but still was butting in. My philosophy is to butt in if information presented could be dangerous (like boys saying to get close to a bear to scare it away). If it's just wrong (like they say to use the wrong knot for something) I let them know in private later, and let the boys make the necessary correction (if they have not already discovered it).

Boys need to be modeled, not told, correct behavior. I like an adult patrol that acts exactly like a troop patrol. They can't start correcting the boys, that's the SPL and PL's job. They follow the SPL, just like everyone else. But they work at modeling the patrol method.

One point I like to make is that Scouting is not for everyone. Scouting is a program which stresses outdoor activities, with indoor activities that often are in support (training of) the outdoor activities. If a kid really is not into that, there are a ton of other activities that are a better fit for them.

If it's the parent holding them back, than shame on the parent. However, one must explain to get the best out of the Scouting program, they have to allow the Scout attend the outdoor Scouting activities. THey do want their child to get the best and most out of their Scouting experience don't they?

Will it become more politically correct?

If these adults want to get the "Scout" experience, perhaps they can just start their own patrol.

On this campout, there could have been a patrol of 6 boys. 2-3 adult leaders and a second patrol of 7-8 adults. Keep the patrols at least 300 feet apart, and both have to do the exact same things. This way the boys can be challenged to "out do" the other patrol.

However, the adult patrol has to:

(1) Police the area for garbage at the end of the event, just like the Scouts.

(2) Clean up dishes, just like the scouts.

(3) Participate in all daily activities, just like the Scouts (no picking and choosing)

If they want to be Scouts, treat them like Scouts.

eVent fabric is getting a lot of positive reviews and capturing business from people switching from Goretex. I have an old Goretex jacket that wore out and upgraded to eVent. It does breath better, and kept me dry during a 5-hour rain while hiking.

I think technically:

Dump Cakes are where you dump a box of cake mix on top of the fruit, and put butter slices on top of that to get the buttery crispiness and mega sugar content.

Cobblers are deep dish dessert with a thick biscuit style dough over the fruit (also can encapsulate the fruit)

Crisps (American) and Crumbles (English name) have a fruit bottom and crumb topping. The topping is usually composed of some of the following; flour, nuts, bread crumbs, cookie or graham cracker crumbs, oatmeal, even breakfast cereal.

Buckles are a single layer cake with fruit (often blueberries) inside. They have a streusel topping giving it a "buckled" appearance.

That being said, definitely experiment, make more than one kind, and taste test them all.

Some people lattice pie dough over the fruit and sprinkle a little sugar.

Some people use the pre-made cookie dough, and place it over the fruit, for an interesting dessert.

When I was a scout, Cobbler dough was 3 parts Bisquick, 1 part sugar and 1 part liquid (we would use the peach juice from the canned peaches)

For cobbler biscuit topping though (scale up for dutch oven size):

At home, mix 1 cup flour, 3 tablespoons sugar, 3/4 teaspoon baking powder, 1/4 teaspoon baking soda, 1/4 teaspoon salt and 5 tablespoond butter in a food processor until you get a kind of coarse meal

At camp mix the above with 1/3 cup plain yogurt. Use that as your biscuit dough to make cobbler. It will rise nicely in the dutch oven (so leave room with the lid on for expansion)

First of all, "Freedom of Speech". That does not apply to privately funded businesses, web pages or forums. Since I believe this is a private board, the owners make the rules and can moderate it to their own purposes. So you really don't have freedom of speech here, you have "Freedom if they let you, speech" here.

Second, if you are going to start asserting that certain people are "stealing from kids." and other things, you do set yourself up to be libel. Freedom of speech only goes so far you know.

I don't know about IL, but my son's Scout camp is 1/2 the cost of the church camp and 1/4 the cost of a week of military camp. So here it's still a decent deal.

MN_Scout,

Thank you for the input, it was very good. Quick question, if you are leaving the SPOT on all day, or at least while moving, do you have a feel for how long the batteries last? I was thinking if you just turned it on to send an OK then turn it off, batteries would probably last a long time. However if on all day, do the batteries last longer than the ones in a regular GPS?

Thanks,

I don't have a SPOT, but for the purposes mentioned, sending OK notes back home and whatnot, I think it's good. WHere I backpack, the 911 feature would likely work, or I could get clear enough to make it work. Hopefully before too long, that "OK" button will be on regular Garmin GPS units.

I don't know that I'd pay $100 a year for the service though. Maybe for troops that do a lot of backcountry camping, it'd be a worthy part of the budget.

While I may backpack a fair amount, it's still on regular trails that others use. If I were doing something really remote, I'd definitely want a PLB, especially if I were in a very small party.

Scorpianace,

Gathering ammunition online won't always win over other committee members to your cause. In this case, it's really all about the individual troop culture, and whether they have WRITTEN down any bylaws or procedures for discipline.

In the end, if your son is using pushups as a punishment/deterrent,and the committee has already forbidden it, then it's out. If they have not forbidden it, and the SM says not to do it, it's out.

If the troop does not have any procedures for handling discipline, then they ought to make them. So you don't have different people doing and allowing different things. Inconsistency won't help the troop one bit.

I was a Cub Scout starting in the second grade. I went through Webelos, Boy Scouts, earned Eagle, visited Philmont and even stayed with the same troop past my 18th birthday and taught at some of the leadership meetings. Once I was in college full time, it became too hard to keep up, but would visit form time to time. Got back in when my son was a Tiger in first grade.

Scouting has had a very positive affect on my life. I would not trade it for anything else.

Does the guide to safe scouting say anything about them?

Does the Scoutmaster Handbook say anything about them?

Are Scouts encouraged and even required to do certain exercises, like push-ups, for rank?

Based on the wiki definition, is it corporal punishment if it does not inflict pain? (actually, push-ups are not mentioned anywhere in the wiki article mentioned, only striking)

It's OK for boys to do push-ups for rank advancement but not as a punishment? (it depends)

It's OK for a troop to have morning PT, but not allow push-ups as a punishment? (it depends)

I personally think that using pushups as a punishment is not a good way to lead, and that there are better options to encourage Scouts in the right way. However, I don't believe there is any edict outlawing them from Scouting. I think troops need to be very clear in their by-laws with regards to what punishments are allowed for what offenses in what frequencies. So you don't get an ex drill sergeant in one camp doling out pushups for everything, then the next campout a different leader has everyone sing Kum-ba-yah and hug each other.

So, if your troop has not made a policy, perhaps they should. So parents can make a decision what type of place they want their kids at.