Eagle1973

"Quizzing" (or whatever is a better term for it) at the SM Conference is a great way for the SM to determine the Scout's level of retention and ability to demonstrate basic Scout skills he has learned from his PL, SPL, Troop Guide, JASM, etc. The SM may soon be calling on that Scout to be a Troop Guide, responsible for teaching Scout skills...

It is also a way for the SM to determine the level of knowledge of the current batch of "teachers". If the Scout isn't doing well in his SM Conference, why not, is this particular Scout, or the Scouts that signed off that he knew it? If it is the signer's, why are they signing it off when the Scout doesn't know it? This may lead to another "train the trainers" get together for those entrusted with that responsibility. Those Scouts need to learn that their initials mean something.

As I stated before, the Scout doesn't fail the SM Conference, however the SM Conference may turn into lessons on Scout skills of a specific rank and of ranks earned. This Scout may have to come back and "finish" his SM Conference. In the mean time, the SM/ASM that held the SM Conference has the duty to figure out why and come up with solutions.

Sounds like lazy Scouters to me. It's supposed to be a conference, which to me means a discussion. Quiz away, but verbally and with training aids, like a first aid kit, or line and sticks for lashing... A Scout doesnt fail, although thru discussion, he'll decide that he needs to come back and finish the conference.

What do the Scouts want to do?

Our troop announces it immediately, gives them their rank patch right then or next meeting. Their card with mother's pin attached is presented at the COH, the Scout does an about face and pins his mother...

My persistence is beginning to pay off. I have been contacted by the "keeper of the Guide to Safe Scouting".

Here is a link to fill out a form if you have questions that concern safety. http://scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GotQuestions.aspx

Hopefully, the Scouters that receive it will provide feedback that your message was received and the current disposition.

Another hopefully, I'll be contacted by the "subject-matter experts" to whom my concerns were sent.

I'll keep y'all posted.

Really KC? So all your time in the Army, you never engaged your seniors for the benefit of your troopers, bummer, I feel sorry for the young men and women that were trusted in your care. Gee, when I was in the service of our country, I often sought the counsel of my senior enlisted, listened to their input, provided feedback and then issued clear, concise and thorough orders (guidance), when the situation permitted it, of course. I expected my senior enlisted to come forward when something was not quite right, maybe, just maybe, they may know more than I. I made it known that I could be properly approached.

If National (or my local council) did the same, especially providing a method for feedback and have the courtesy to inform me that my message was received and under consideration, I wouldn't have brought this discussion to an open forum requesting the help of the vast experience present on this forum (read: senior enlisted). Then maybe, just maybe, those of us in the trenches, would at least have the illusion that we mattered and would be more willing to "go out and draw fire, Ranger" in the future.

OBTW, A 203mm anything is clearly not permitted by the GtSS, I agree with that one. Besides, I couldn't afford the ammo for even a demo. Furthermore, if I took your advice and everybody else did, why is there a Guide to Safe Scouting? I'm all for less admin.

KC, normally I would agree, but in this case we're dealing with firearms and a litigious society. I would like a dialog with the SSTF, because either they want to make it too hard for us or they don't have the experience of contingency planning...

Thank you RichardB. Feedback that my msg was rcvd and being considered would have useful. As well as an easier method for submitting input. The second time I searched for the input form, I couldn't find it again. Should've bookmarked it.

I don't know who is on the SSTF or their experience, but there are lots of good safe ideas out here from folks that I do know.

RSO requirements: In the scenario I provided where there was one instructor, a scout and his father, how should the GtSS be interpreted? Could the MB counselor/NRA Instructor/certified RSO sign the scout's blue card?

Age guideline: So, what is the definition of younger and older scout? A Terms of Reference document is requested. I still maintain that experienced/inexperienced would be better. Would my son, with national level shooting experience at age 12, be considered young or old? I would have to check the dates, but he might have earned his NRA Distinquished Expert before his Shotgun MB. I'm pretty sure he did because I didn't want my name on my son's blue card without backup, based on my experience when I was a scout...

I guess what I am really getting at is that it is my hope that BSA would back me in a court of law if, God forbids, an accident occurs while I'm leading an event at a range. My hope (hope should not be viable course of action, but...) is that if I follow the GtSS, BSA would back me up. My intent is to effect change to the GtSS where it provides the best for all, "coverage" for the volunteer and "opportunity" for the youth.

You have my point of contact information, please provide to the SSTF.

So there is no email for National? Email makes it convenient for me, the volunteer.

Wish National would open up discussion before they change the Guide, or am I not on that email list? :-/

I wear the father's pin on my left flap. The SM of our troop wears two father pins and several mentor pins.

Wear it!

The Guide to Safe Scouting, Shooting Sports section has been updated and is better than it ever has been, but...

How does one recommend changes to the GtSS?

The new and improved section still falls short. The new requirement for the NRA certified instructor and the NRA certified RSO restricts opportunities for small groups of scouts to work on the MBs or simple learn safe shooting. I have a case were a scout with a summer camp partial and his father engaged the chief instructor at local range in order for the scout to finish up. The fully qualified/certified instructor met with father and son to finish the MB, the 3 were the only ones at the range. The new GtSS wouldn't allow this. The GtSS would require the instructor, a RSO and father and son in order to be in keeping with the guidelines.

Also, for shotgun, it labels scouts as younger and older when in comes to multiple shots and type of shotgun. My son was shooting skeet and sporting clays at the national level with SCTP (Scholastic Clay Target Program) as a 12 year old. If scouts join at the 10 year mark and continue to the 18 year mark, is a 12 yo experienced shotgun shooter a young or old scout? Granted, the MB requirement is earned with single shots, but what do you do after the MB is earned???? I recommend experienced and inexperienced scouts, as recommended by the instructor.

The permitted rifle type is specifically stated now, but discounts other action types that, in my qualified opinion, would be perfectly safe for a scout to use and are not tubular magazine fed... like grandpop's serviceable rolling block 22, or dad's break action .22. Additionally, IMO, the Cub Scout guidelines should read much like the Boy Scout's, but be limited to BB. 4H starts their shooting sports program with 9 year olds. SCTP starts at 8, I believe.

Minor issues with the Venturing requirement, but that's enough for now.

So, the question again is who do I contact? When I contact my local council, I get a head scratch and that's about it. I can find how to donate money to National, but no other contact method is easily found.

Egypt was a good thing. Bahrain is our friend. North Korea would put us head to head against China. Yemen has been a lost cause for a long time, so it doesnt matter. Don't know about the other two.

ref OLDSM comment. I've been working on a Word 2007 workbook, just the pages that need to be filled in. Pictures and diagrams are easily inserted. It's not quite yet "Scout proof".

How do I upload a file? Or someone PM me and I'll send what I've come up with so far, and maybe one of y'all can make it better.

Where is the Word version? Because the .pdf was so difficult to work with, I was making a Word 2007 version for my troop's use, but if one has already been created...

All I can find on the NESA site is the .pdf.

Wingnut, by making it harder, I meant there would have to be more coordination, more planning, ordering material from the NRA, 3-4 hours of boring classroom material, etc. Harder for the MB counselor, not Scout.

Then the question is does the MB book have the same information, order, terminology etc etc of the First Steps Course? Why should the Scout have to do it twice?

My goal on the range is to get the Scout pulling the trigger as soon as possible. Horseplay, because Scouts are bored would be bad on a range.

Eagle1973

NRA Rifle/Shotgun/RSO

If true, that makes it harder and more costly.

IMO, gun safety can be taught without having to use an NRA curriculum and materials.

Just looked at the GtSS online, no changes jumped out at me.(This message has been edited by Eagle1973)

Are you near any military bases and have someone that has access to MWR (Morale, Welfare and Recreation) facilities.

I'm about to watch my son go through it. He's 1 month from aging out, a senior in high school, still active in Venturing and wants to be a ASM.

Can he still play "manhunt" with his high school/scout buddies? If our Venturers wanted to play "manhunt", he could. (Manhunt = any youth sorta game)

IMO, you are either an adult, or not.

As you discribe, I have never been a situation with such people and hope I never will. I guess it's a good thing that the Boy Scouts that you are involved with can't hunt, so you don't have to be in that situation either. If you are with Venturers, they need to go back to class.

Wow JoeBob, your experience has been the exact opposite of mine. I find that youth with real firearms are very safe. It has been my experience that they want to be safe, once taught the rules, because any violation of safe practices results in them not returning to the range.

I will agree that muzzle control with handguns is a bit more problematic, but that is resolved by teaching a more mature Scout (Venturer) and having one instructor per student until all the basics are learned and observed.

Beavah - I was just stating my question in a different manner. I used the insurance term incorrectly, I just want to be covered ;-)...

Back to the real discussion - Teaching Scouts: The NRA course is about worthless for teaching youth. In Virginia, we have a rather robust 4H Shooting Education Program. The VA 4H course (which use to be accepted by the NRA) is the best for learning how to teach youth the proper handling and use of rifle, pistol, shotgun, blackpowder, you name it. For one, it teaches how to properly reposition a shooter's stance, by commuticating with them and then with / without touching them, and how to do it so you can't be accused of improper touching, etc. The NRA doesn't teach how to teach that.

Unfortunately, not all State 4H programs are equal, so the NRA took the easy way out by not allowing any 4H certs to carry over. And, the G2SS removed their clause about being cert'd by NRA or a State program. Bummer, I had converted by rifle cert in time, but not my shotgun cert, so I had to pay $75 for that priviledge.(This message has been edited by Eagle1973)

Beav - are you saying that if I follow the G2SS wrt shooting and a scout with a sue happy parent gets hurt and brings me to court, the BSA will not back me up? This topic should very much be part of this discussion.

The reason I follow the G2SS is because if an accident happens, I'm covered by the BSA insurance, or at least I hope that I am. Same when I'm working with the 4H youth, I follow their rules.

If any of youseguys are in or near the Tidewater Council, Virginia, I can point you in the right direction of setting up a rifle & shotgun MB or orientation shoot weekend. Camping is about 75 yards from the range!(This message has been edited by Eagle1973)

The G2SS recently took out the .22 bolt action only statement, so I take it to mean that if they can safely and easily load one round at a time, any modern (I take that as serviceable) .22 rifle can be used. The problem with rod fed semi-autos is that you cant easily load one round at a time. Magazine fed .22 are sometimes easier to load singly, especially bolt action mag fed.

As for shotguns, only the merit badge requirement of shooting a single target is the driver for loading only one shell at a time, the G2SS doesnt say you cant load two. Range rules usually dictate loading no more then two rounds. If a Scout is a natural shotgun shooter, Ill spice it up a bit and throw doubles (if on a skeet field), once they find the grove on those out-goers, its a waste of ammo and targets so why not ratchet it up a notch, they may just want to pick up the sport

My question answered, thanks Tony.