E-Mtns

I would be accused of insubordination and that's in the new by-laws too. Removal from troop a possibilty according to the said by-laws.

More food for thought;

It is written in the bylaws that late youth arrivals are to enter the meeting quietly and sit at a table in the back of the room.

Last summer following the proding of the new SM the boys voted to change to the so-called troop method. They haven't had a PLC meeting since. The SM and Committee plan and execute the program. Last winter the SM divided the youth members into patrols of his liking for the Winter Camporee and it just happened again. One SA thought he does it to even the skill levels of the patrols or to put it another way STACK THE DECK.

I'm disgusted at the level of control the committee and SM is seeking to implement.

Chew on that for a while.

My sons SM is at it again. He now has voting rights(!), and all members, boys included, have to agree to and sign the new Committee policy bylaws form where he's granted voting authority on the Comm. Agreement to follow the policy as written is mandatory for membership in the troop.

Does the Scoutmaster have the right to vote with the committee to make policy and/or fiscal decisions at the committee level in a troop?

Wood Badge trained leaders? There is a possible difference between paid for(read free ride?) or out of pocket(read self paid?) WB training by adults. Either way though working your ticket should make the difference because you have to pay(work) your own way back to Gilwell.

Scouters swearing and setting a poor/bad example won't help a troop prosper, especially after the parents get wind of it and their boys start repeating what was heard. Scouters swearing AND yelling doesn't help either, I've witnessed it on several occasions. It makes me want to walk away because it only becomes worse if I speak up and try to end it.

Eagledad,

I know of a SM that disregards advice from a Woodbadge and Powderhorn trained volunteer and does not understand or use the "methods" of scouting either. It's almost as if they want the benefits (i.e., insurance coverage) scouting has to offer but then not follow the program.

Reply to John-in-KC

I know a SM who has said he and his troop will not camp with the local packs Webelos Den boys. He said it is not required "by the book" and he can't insure the "safety" of the boys. He did say if every parent went through a background check he may consider it. I believe that approach may violate the Scout Law, specifically, being Trustworthy, Helpful, Friendly and Kind. It also goes against the Scout Oath, "To help other people at all times".

The Pack-Troop relationship is starting to suffer from it too.

In order to know what's good we have to understand what is bad. Experienced scouters please tell your horror stories so new scouters don't repeat them. This is an open discussion for all, with no holds barred, except it has to be the truth as you see it.

Kudu said;

"You have not told us how he described the two methods. Nor did you tell us where he heard of the "Troop Method" (which one way or another was from me--so I am to blame!). We can't really suggest a way out of this unless we know what he means by the "Troop Method."

He said the difference is the troop method will be like one big family voting on everything together, so everyone has a voice. The patrol leaders council will eliminated and there won't be any patrol leaders. Then he started talking about the patrol method and basically fudged it in front of the boys and asked for help about mid-way through.

I did not step up to explain what I thought the difference between the two methods were because I was warned by the SM beforehand not to say anything that could be seen as favoring one or the other.

It appears the SM is listening to and doing what one younger SA is saying is the better way to run the troop.

We have a troop adult leaders meeting next week, I plan to offer an exercise in discovery by presenting them with the troop self-assessment survey. I will have a SM handbook and other material ready if we need to further discuss any of the specific items. I may also include what a Commissioner does when he checks up on a troop.

Hey Nike,

Does your troop have a "V" patrol? Most adults may not even know about the comic or the movie. I knew about the anarchist "V" but didn't remember the states "Norsefire" name until I searched it. The name may have a greater significance in Germany because of the past than it would have here in America.

I kinda like "Foxfire" for a patrol name but I'm no fairy. I've found some on our outings and the boys are fascinated by it.

I have a few questions. Does your troop have an active CO and Representative, do they show up at meetings, both Comm. and Troop? Are they trained?What kind or type of organization are they? Is it an American Legion Post? Do they approve or disapprove? Are they letting the CC do the dirty work? As a former US ARMY Vet. I would discourage the use of that name and let them use "THE GREEN BARS" if they wanted. Military similarities have no place in Scouting at this time, so consider which door is better left closed.

And few other obvious questions are,

Why have they formed a patrol anyway? Will they get two votes on the PLC? of course not but I had to ask! And don't they have enough to do already?

I usually ask to many questions, but answers are harder to find without them.

My remarks about being a MBC and doing the right thing was meant to bring light to the fact that unintended outcomes will start to occur and the young scouts won't know what to do which will make them rely more on the adults to do the decision making. Which will lead to a possible break down of the boy led concept too. I don't think making the boys DEPENDENT on the adults for their decision making will help them discover what DEPENDABILITY means - trustworthy, loyal, faithfull, honest, etc. It is something they have to discover themselves and they need the right environment to do it. I will take all my concerns to the next Comm. meeting. The outcome of that meeting will determine my next direction. Thanks to all for your helpful and kind suggestions.

Well, the boys voted last night for the troop method. It was said by the SM that it will be a 6 month trial, to be revisited and voted on again on Aug. 11th I presume. I will now say to the leaders and scouts that if you're not in a patrol I cannot as a registered MBC sign off #9 Backpacking or #4 Camping MB requirements. As a counselor I cannot add or SUBTRACT from the requirements needed to earn the badge. My guess is the leaders will direct the boys toward a MBC who doesn't know any better. Now they will see the unintended consequences crop up that they didn't expect, it's such a shame that these things will happen to the boys.

Have you tried a PL Expectations/Evaluation form that all PL's accept as their required responsibilities. Some troops/patrols try that approach, even add it to their TLT training so the Scouts have plenty of exposure to it before they accept the position. It could be used with all positions of leadership too. There's plenty of forms on the web to see or you can write your own. I suppose the "just enough to qualify" could be clearly spelled out so he would have to meet the patrol's expectations. All this is just an idea, I've never seen it used or tried in any troop I've been involved with.

I now know why I'm so committed to doing the right thing for these boys, I was a forward scout in the US Army, 2/1 Cav, for four years and Honorably Discharged as an E-5 Sgt., and an Asst. Squad Leader. I have contacted my Council Commissioner about my issues and look forward to his advice. If I can stick it out I can't wait for Aprils Roundtable, in our calendar, leadership is the program feature we'll discuss.

My son's scoutmaster wants to try the so-called troop method, eliminating the patrol method in the process. Advancement requirements for Star, Life & Eagle stipulate that the candidate be active in his troop AND patrol for a certain period of time, 4 or 6 months. When I asked him about this requirement, he replied and I quote " what do you want me to do cross out patrol before I sign it". Can a Scoutmaster do this?

Here's another quote, author unknown, "Prohibition- Scouting does not prohibit a bad habit, but instead gives more exciting, better alternatives, that will absorb the Scout's attention and gradually lead him to forget the old habit. The reason is that prohibition generally invites evasion, since it challenges the spirit inherent in every boy. The boy is not governed by DON'T, but is lead on by DO".

I want my son's troop leadership to increase the "DO" part by giving them more challenging oppotunities to lead not decrease their chances by eliminating those positions of responsibility.

His Scoutmaster is giving the boys the responsibility to choose one or the other method too. He has given them a week to decide. He spoke for maybe five minutes about the how each is different. It is my understanding that part of the adults role is to manage the direction the troop is headed not the boys. He'll have 12 yr. old boys decide which is better, as if they really understand the differences. At that age I would have taken the road of least resistance, because of my immaturity. The SM has also said he can't wait to do the troop method "so we can have a real democracy where every boy gets a vote".

Have you ever felt like you're falling and you can't catch yourself, well that's how I feel.

Kudu's reply

"So your Troop leadership's straight-faced use of the term is a milestone of sorts :-/"

I would describe it as more of a setback for the boys who we volunteer our time for, and for some, that time is very precious. My son's leaders will remove opportunities for leadership growth if they eliminate the PL positions, two or three in this case. Adult leaders receive training, soon to be required for re-chartering, but that's not the point of this thread. It is the boys we serve that deserve more. They have the tools for working as Patrols, SPL & PL handbooks, I have even supplied the books. How can we expect them to build their own house if we take away the tools.

It may be true if you neglect one method, you neglect all, more or less. Do some of the eight scouting methods carry more negative weight if overlooked than the others. It may be and that would be related to this thread.

I found this at Wiki. under SCOUT METHOD - Patrol system (or patrol method), the individual in a group. Scouts are organised in small groups (about 5-7 Scouts) because this is the natural way boys work together. These patrols are therefore more important than the Scout troop. Patrols must be kept intact under all circumstances, which means working, tenting, learning, cooking, so surviving together. In a Patrol, the Scouts learn to work with others, while the Patrol leader learns responsibility for others.

"the entire foundation of Scouting is Troop strength. it doesnt matter how fancy you keep building a house, if you keep taking bricks out of the foundation, the house will eventually fall"

I disagree about your definition of Scoutings foundation if Troop strength is how you define it. It is vague and difficult to quantify. How would you measure that interpretation, the number of registered boys(active and/or inactive), number of registered adults, boys who earn Eagle, number of patrols, etc.?

Scoutings foundation has always been the Patrol, where the Scouts learn leadership skills first hand with boys they know and most likely have known for several years as Cub Scouts. They are also less apt to fail if they stay in a group of same aged boys who generally have the same skill set who can advance up the trail to Eagle together.

I asked my son's Scoutmaster how he will justify signing the 1st requirement for Star, Life or Eagle if they don't use the patrol method. He said and I quote " What do you want me do, cross out patrol before I sign it". FYI, this Scoutmaster has less than one year experience in Boy Scouting.

I know about the Patrol method, "I used to be a beaver", but my son's troop leadership may change to the so-called troop method. I have voiced my disapproval on numerous occasions but they may not listen to me, a SA since 2006 in this troop. Without a guide book I'm afraid the other adult leaders will make it up as they go long. On paper we have about 20 boys who may be thrust into one big patrol(?). It will eliminate the currently three(?)patrols we now have. I've mentioned how it may have a negative impact on the troop, no patrol leaders, no PLC meetings, fewer leadership positions, etc. etc. etc. I'm trying to help this troop but if they persist in what I consider the wrong direction I'll consider my alternatives for the sake of my son.

My son's troop leadership wants to use the Troop method. I've looked through the SM handbook and the SPL and PL books but can't find the info.