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  1. 8 points
    I think we're way off topic at this point, but on the subject of advancement... It kind of seems like no matter what pace a kid takes, it will bother someone. Go too fast and you're missing out on the journey. Go too slow and earn eagle in the 11th hour before turning 18 and they didn't take it seriously, didn't plan ahead, procrastinated, etc., etc., etc. My feeling is if this is supposed to be about the journey, let it be a journey that fits each scout. No two journeys end up being the same. The kids have their list of requirements, but even within that there is a lot of choice and different angles of approach. We want them to become leaders but we don't want then to lead on their own advancement trail? If we're going to say this is still a youth-led program, we should let up on the criticism of how they approach their own advancement. If the benefits of the program are so heavily dependent on time spent in the program, then we should have a requirement on the books that puts more time between ranks. Unless/until that happens, the boys should decide their own pace, whatever works for them, even if that means fast-tracking.
  2. 6 points
    (BTW I do not think girls showing up in my Troop is the same DEFCON level as war with Korea) I think now the decision is made individuals can either live with or not. I feel sad if we really are losing something and sad for boys and scouters who may leave--on that we shall see.' I think speculation is fair given how many holes in the announced-so-far policy by National is at the scout level. I cannot figure if they are being stupid, intellectually lazy, or sneaky. I do not think they have a very workable plan and will make us figure it all out. I am not hearing much organizational wisdom trickling down to the Council and District level...at least around here. I do hear some genuine hurt feelings from long time folks who are not planning to make a fuss. Last night I was on a BOR (I know, I know as an ASM I am not supposed to be on it but they were short a person). The lad was going up for Star at 12. Fast tracking to Eagle but does everything he is asked (though pretty much the minimal on camping and patrol activities--you know when Mom asks when she can drop off and pick up at the campsite so he still gets credit for one night of camping) so he was gonna pass. A mom sat in on the BOR and didn't say much and was pretty tense. I respect this woman's opinion (she is also active service member single mom) so I asked if anything was wrong. She expressed her frustration over how the Troop and BSA in general has so enabled scouts to get Eagle so fast (the boy in particular attended two summer camps to load up on Merit Badges) that they are missing the point of developing leadership in scouts by going so fast and what is the point of Eagle if it is just an academic exercise. She makes her son 'do it the right way' and he is mad at her because he sees boys 2-3 years younger the same rank but less active in the Troop. She said the interference of the parents, mostly "remote control moms" were making it easier on their sons but ruining scouting. It is the same arguments we talk about here but it was refreshing hearing from a parent. (she also said she would welcome 'hiker girls' if in exchange we could just ban all the adults but a couple men). So...I reiterate the bigger threat to the program is the move away from the traditional program youth-led, mixed-age, patrol based outdoor program.
  3. 6 points
    I would slightly differ in that view. BSA National and pretty much every interview CSE has had emphasized and at times over emphasized family. He talks about families doing things together, that families want programs they can do together, and that scouting can be the program they can do together. The surveys tell them family is key and they want to do things. As a family. One can infer that if the new families that come into Cubs with the family transition to Scouts, the expectation is the family will come along. Those of us that are dinosaur troops, all male leaders on outings, using patrol methods, scouts off by themselves, referring scouts to their SPL for questions, will be (I assume) be expected to welcome the families. Even if we are all male and the Scouts potentially crossing over are male, this family focus will be a challenge.
  4. 6 points
    You keep asking that question and we answering it. The program changed a lot with the admittance of women leaders. There didn't appear to be a lot of changes from the outside, but it was obvious from the inside. As I've said several times (I believe to you, but I could be wrong), the massive training course changes in 2000 were largely a result of bringing women into the troop. Not because they were women, but because they had no Boy Scouting experienced. The BSA was so overwhelmed with un-experienced adult leaders that they had to rethink how to train them. And I think most of us who were leading Troop programs back then would say that Patrol Method has suffered greatly. Adults today don't get patrol method because training doesn't teach it well and there aren't enough experienced leaders to encourage it at Council or district level. Bringing in girls will increase the number of un-experienced unit adult leaders. If there was any hope that the program 10 years from now resembled today's program, calling it a family program killed it. Calling it a family program will add more confusion between leadership and parents. It will eventually sort itself out if scouting survives, but it won't be the same program. Barry
  5. 5 points
    I am genuinely unclear on whether this is serious or satire.
  6. 5 points
    Just came from a PLC last night where the PLC passed a "rule" that said only registered Scouts and adults could camp with the troop, and that only perspective Webelos looking to join could camp with the unit.
  7. 5 points
    But that is CUB Scout, bot BOY Scouts. (caps for emphasis). Most 11-18 year old males want to get away from their parents and younger siblings. They want to do things on their own. The families going camping is one reason why my sons and several others are not happy with the troop. They had problems with siblings, as well as adults. An example form this weekend, PL is doing his assigned job at a fundraiser, and one of the parents tells him to stop what he is doing and get back to work. Thankfully I was there and told him to ignore the parent and SPL's instructions. Agree 110% Even WB doesn't fully model the Patrol Method. And even when you do have adults who know PM and teach it at training, you still have large numbers of adults who think they know best, or do not have the patience to implement it. The Patrol Method is truly 'Organized Chaos" Another factor that women have is the natural "mother instinct" They want to nurture and protect they children. Many cannot let go. We see it today with 26 year olds being considered children under some federal laws. I do not know when the Guide to Safe Scouting first came out, But I can tell you many things I use to do as a Scout are not allowed anymore, and it has been since women were allowed to be SMs and ASMs, i.e. pioneering projects over 6 feet, smudge pots, etc.
  8. 4 points
    Unless you're next to a screaming toddler on a Lufthansa flight. THEN it is all about the destination and not the journey! https://metro.co.uk/video/video-demonic-child-screams-eight-hour-flight-1628342/?ito=vjs-link
  9. 4 points
    The level of speculation in this thread is astonishing. Now we are up to, what happens if the admission of girls (which has just barely started, and in only one of the two programs in which it will occur) does not work and the BSA tries to change back, what will happen then and what if someone sues? Perhaps we should next consider if, after all of this happens, a huge asteroid collides with the Earth and destroys all life on our little planet. What will the BSA's policy be then? I mean, if you're going to speculate, you may as well speculate.
  10. 4 points
    Thank you for your service. I too have some experience with Scoutmaster training and Wood Badge, both starting in 1959. Start with this: understanding the Patrol Method is not even a learning objective of Scoutmaster basic training per the current syllabus. It should be THE objective. To avoid a wall of text comparing BSA training syllabus contents to more authoritative BSA statements on the Patrol Method over the years and today, please consider this: for fourteen years, until late Summer 2014, the section of the Scoutmaster Specific syllabus entitled "Working with Youth, the Patrol Method" lacked a single sentence correctly describing the Patrol Method. In fact, the word "patrol," appeared exactly once. Staff, then sworn to present the message BSA "intends," might have compensated. I surely did. (I am always happy to learn more if you could cite language to the contrary.) Now, we are sworn as trainers to "use" the syllabus. ("For what," one asks. )The current syllabus, sadly, is only fractionally better than what it replaced because it reinforces the incorrect idea that the troop is where everything of worth happens. The syllabus does say, "Scouting happens in the context of a patrol,” then contradicts that defining concept in almost everything else it says. Just look at the model troop meeting plan - a few minutes for a patrol "business" meeting and the vast bulk of time "troop," "troop," "troop." Even Scoutcraft instruction is shown on the troop level. Compare that to these words: "[The patrol is] the place where boys learn skills together, take on leadership responsibilities, perhaps for the first time . . . . ” B.S.A. Scouting.org., (2018) “Patrols will sometimes join with other patrols to learn skills and complete advancement requirements.” B.S.A., Scouting.org (2018)[emphasis added] Does the syllabus even mention that Scouts, not adults, are to be the primary Scoutcraft teachers? No. And where is the training on planning patrol program, where "scouting happens"? ZIp. Nada. Zero.v Troop, troop, troop. The present syllabus falls FAR short of coherently presenting a correct view of BSA's statements since 1929 and to this date to the effect that Boy Scouting is patrol scouting, not troop Scouting. "A patrol is that small group of boys and friends under their own leadership who plan and carry out troop and patrol meetings and activities. It is the basic organizational unit of a Scout troop. Boy Scouts of America, Scoutmaster Handbook, 1998 ed., 2010 printing, Chapter 4, "The Boy-Led Patrol" "Unless the patrol method is in operation, you don’t really have a Boy Scout troop.” Scoutingmagazine.org (citing Baden-Powell) (September, 2015 and still posted today - this very minute) https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/09/05/patrol-method/ The legend is that Coach Vince Lombardi began every training season with, "Gentlemen, this is a football." Gentlemen, this is Boy Scouting. Yogi Berra on why SMs need to know what the Patrol Method is: "You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there." NOTE: site is supplying it's own underlining. Thanks, I guess.
  11. 4 points
    You know I do not want to jump to any conclusions that attacking North Korea would potentially be a bad idea. I will take a position of wait and see and wait to form my opinion after the fact.
  12. 4 points
    and that was an initial concern... when girls show up, but the numbers are small... National will change the program to "fix" that problem, and now we're no longer talking about "girls doing the same program the boys have done" as was pitched. There will be changes to the program to meet girls needs, something we were told repeatedly simply doesn't exist, that girls and boys have the same interests and are basically the same person, with the same needs. (this is of course my speculation based on my observations)
  13. 4 points
    @Mattosaurus, whatever you do you need to be honest. You skipped a step. No biggie but you do need to own up to it as other people have advised. The Guide to Advancement (the book Scouters are supposed to consult when they have advancement questions) allows for instances such as yours. Contact your Eagle Coach today, as well as the district rep. Let them know your issue and your project timeline. In most instances they will be happy to approve your completed form, but they will advise you on your next steps. Document your interaction with them via email and confirm both in writing and verbally. This may help you later. Above all DO NOT go forward without contacting them...and most certainly do not "back date" or "fudge" anything. Not only is that dishonest and against the Scout Law, it is not worthy of an Eagle Scout. Yes, it is a big deal. It is called integrity. Make sure your parents are in the know on this issue too. While you are the one responsible, it usually make sense to have your parents up to speed on your status. Also your unit lead (Scoutmaster). Good luck!!!
  14. 4 points
    As an engineer, this is data I can dig into and appreciate. I would like to see what the graphs look like minus the Indonesia influence. Why can't BSA National treat us like grown-ups and share such statistical motivations, rather than concoct manipulative surveys as a pretext for a predetermined outcome?
  15. 4 points
    For reference and enjoyment, this snapshot by WOSM may serve: https://issuu.com/worldscouting/docs/wsbero-membership_report_2013 What's relevant to us, is that Scouts UK had not recovered its market penetration, but compared to 2007, it had "turned the corner" and was gaining market share. It is reasonable to expect that it has continued that trend. However, it probably has a few years to gain the share of boys. On the other hand, BSA's program(s) has lost market share at an alarming rate over the same period. Anyone worried about losing boys nationwide, that ship has sailed. Anyone thinking including girls is a panacea should reconsider their position. I'm in this for smiles. Some girls want this program? Let them. Some boys want to keep to themselves? Make it work for them ... even if your troop is full-on co-ed. These things are best managed on a local level, and the sooner BSA gives scouters the latitude to do that the better.
  16. 4 points
    If given a choice between multiple options, I believe that my son's choices would be all-male scout camps, co-ed church, and co-ed YMCA type camps. As the only all-male alternative has gone away, it no longer provides a different experience than the other two. At this point, I'm thinking my son would opt for the church's Bible camp. It's outdoors, program focused and all-male off the table and all-male is no longer a choice issue and drops off the options list as it has in all other aspects in today's society. If there were other all-male options out there and it was important to him, it would be a strong consideration. Yes, he's only one boy, but I would assume there are others out there like him, too small in numbers to have any voice in the matter. But as I said, if it's important to him, he'll find his way to find it.
  17. 4 points
    The issue with summer camps changing program... I hope so. Most camp programs are merit badge factories with youths actung as mb counselors. The boys have lost out on a real camp experience long before the idea of having girls as members. Let's not pretend that all is perfect and the change to allow girls in the program will weaken it. The loss of the patrol method, mb factories, eagle mills are well entrenched in the current paradigm. We have had a far from perfect program for many years. It wasn't the gays, girls or godless that did that.
  18. 4 points
    This isn't an experience I recognise at all. My experience is that the types of boys and girls who will get involved in, for want of a better word, "drama" simply don't have the motivation to be scouts in the first place. The handful that do turn up don't last long at all. That attitude doesn't fit and the rest of the troop doesn't tolerate it. Yes there are some differences in what boys and girls like in the same ways that there are differences in what the older and younger scout like but it's not so different as to disrupt things. It can lead to debate in the PLC or in troop forums but there will be debate in the PLC and troop forums if it was single sex as well, just over different things. This is the reality of coed scouts on camp. Boys and girls mucking in together. It's no different to it just being boys.
  19. 4 points
    Why don't you ask my three daughters if I am anti-female before you start slinging that slur. I am as heavily engaged in their parenting and development as I am for my son. However, I am experienced enough to appreciate the differences between boys and girls when it comes to a unique program like Scouting. And those differences don't just disappear because of politically-correct derision.
  20. 3 points
    @.40AET, please do not leave the board or even the discussion. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as is @CalicoPenn In my opinion, one of the major problems with our society is the urgency with which we settle into a position, and how entrenched we become, during (or even prior to) a discussion. Too often we weaponize debate and there is no real chance to have a discussion that might help solve a problem. If you are for gun control legislation you are for tyranny and against individual rights if you are against gun control legislation you are for murdering children and against public safety. We are all to blame for where we are. The politicians stake out hardline partisan positions and hold on to them doggedly in order to get reelected because not solving a problem gives them something to rail against, but nothing to be accountable for. The media promotes the partisan conflict and 30 second sound bites because conflict sells and they want to gain viewers/readers.subscribers. Or worse, depending on the media outlet, they have staked out their own positions and rather than report, they lobby. And "we the people" reward them by continuing to send the same buffoons back to DC, even though 80+ percent of us disapprove of the job they are doing.
  21. 3 points
    I'm slightly hesitant to wade into this sad and dispiriting mire, and I won't presume to know what's right for your country, I really hope for all our sakes that change is made for the better.
  22. 3 points
    When I offer Den Leader Training courses for new Cub leaders in my council, that's actually a large part of what I try to convey. As a Webelos Den Leader, I think it's important to be aware of the local Boy Scout program so that I can sufficiently prepare my boys, not only for the program, but for the leaders and Troops up to which they will be advancing. My den feeds in to the Troop sponsored by our shared CO, so I always make it a point to attend their committee meetings and to know the SM and his assistants personally. That way I can give them information about the boys moving up soon, any special needs, et cetera, and I in turn can prepare my boys for the program and group they will be entering and the leaders with whom they will be working. I view the WDL as a bridging character between the world of Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, so I try to be deeply invested in both programs so that I can provide the best Webelos program I can now, while making sure my boys move up to a solid Boy Scout program later. I don't have any kids of my own - I am not even married yet - so I don't know if I will ever be asked to serve as a leader in the Boy Scout Troop. But any Webelos Leader worth his salt will have Boy Scout preparation foremost in his mind as he prepares his activities and works with the boys under his care. This is the last year they get to enjoy to Cub program, so it should be geared towards the transition they are going to face when they move on to the boy-led programs coming up. My personal barometer of success as a Webelos Leader is this - any boy who fails to earn the rank of Scout within his first month in the Boy Scout program isn't entirely to blame. That responsibility lies with me - if I really do my job, they should have it done within the first week or two. When I first started, there were one or two boys who took a long while before making it to Scout. I took that to heart and made the necessary changes to my program and my leadership style. Since then (fingers crossed) none of my boys have taken longer than three weeks to get it done.
  23. 3 points
    I don't understand why anyone has to drone on about upcoming events. Does the Troop not have a website with a calendar? Does leadership not send out reminder emails? I spend more time writing and sending emails to the parents as a backup to the SPL's weekly announcements than I do on most other Scouting business. We use a website from SOAR that sends out a weekly eBlast to all Scouts and their parents. It has all of the events that are open for registration- they can register and pay for all trips online too. They can also (and this is HUGE) sync the Troop calendar to their phones or even Outlook or Google calendar, so no one has to waste time reminding them about every little thing at these few events- for some parents CoH are the only time we ever see them. As for FOS- I told my DE a long time ago (back when I was a Cubmaster) that coming to any Unit event looking for handouts from the families that already support them is barking up the wrong tree. They need to go knock on the doors of businesses that have deeper pockets, a much better return on their investment in time. I also told them that the presentations were awful and boring, and an unwelcome distraction from the purpose of the gatherings that they asked to be added to. That was the end of any FOS presentations at our events.
  24. 3 points
    Ours is still tap outs... For youth fairly firm, for the adults they really pound hard....
  25. 3 points
    Actually it’s 50% of ballots cast. So if you have 51 scouts show and only 40 submit ballots your magic number is 21. So it’s not scouts in the room but ballots cast.
  26. 3 points
    Here's what our PLC did a few months back: First meeting was the parts of a compass and basics of map reading. They had a game called Orienteering Baseball, where patrols played each other by answering map and compass questions of different value (some were "singles", some "doubles", some "home runs"). Like First Aid baseball only with navigation questions. Second meeting of the month was more advanced map reading. They learned about UTM and magnetic declination. We got several large topo maps of Philmont and made up treks. Patrols had to navigate from various points, get water, resupply and get back to base camp. It was a timed game and they had to record direction of travel, bearing and distance. Extra points for elevation gained and lost. Third meeting was a night-time orienteering activity in a local park. Everyone had headlamps and compasses. The Venturing Crew built the course. There were six different "treks" so no patrol had the same path. There were 16 "waypoints" assigned in the park (e.g., A, B, C, and so on). Patrol #1 might have to navigate from A to C to F to G, etc., Patrol #2 might have B to A to F to C. Each patrol had 5-6 waypoints. The waypoints were marked by soccer corner flags with glow sticks. Each patrol was given a sheet of paper with their "trek" waypoints noting distance and bearing; this way they could shoot the bearing and hike the distance even in the dark. The course requires some previous set up in order to note bearing and distances between the waypoints. You also need to get one "pace setter" from each patrol and mark off their # of step per 100 feet prior to letting the patrols on the course. The last meeting of the month was held at another park. There we did something similar to the third meeting BUT we had pizzas hidden at various way points. Those way points were guarded by ASMs or JASMs so the critters in the park would not make off with the pizzas until the patrols got them. This was so popular that the incoming PLC has elected to do this again next month!!
  27. 3 points
    valentine blush.bmp valentine blush.bmp
  28. 3 points
    Devils advocate, if they're trying to set a tone of separate but equal, this is the mental imagery you'd do it with. girls all together without boys, doing cub scouting.
  29. 3 points
    Sort of looks like them FLYER - GIRL BEING INTERVIEWED ON CBS You don't mean (SHOCKED FACE) that the whole thing was STAGED!!!
  30. 3 points
    Sure looks like it to me. I don't think we can even assume these girls are actually enrolled in Cub Scouts. They could very well be child models recruited by a PR agency. That should not surprise anyone - such practices are normal and expected in corporate marketing campaigns.
  31. 3 points
    We've got a mom of trips...all with ADHD. I cut her so much slack...
  32. 3 points
    To be clear, at this point, Girls cannot join your troop nor in the immediate future would they. Yes that will no doubt be subject to change, but wanted to level set (and I know you were being dramatic) Agree 100%. I am amazed that the National BSA office and board made this momentous decision, and literally had no real workable implementation plan. Anyone who has spent any actual time at the unit level can come up with multiple scenarios that need to be resolved. Admittedly they may not have the answers yet, but the shallowness and lack of even acknowledging there may be questions is stunning. What she is saying is a challenge and concern. That being said there are in any endeavor minimum requirements. As long as the Scout meets the minimum, they have in fact met the requirements. I have conversations with Scouts and parents and try try try to remind some of them that Scouting is a journey and not so much a destination. Scouts need to enjoy the trip. Every outing is not about advancement. Sometimes we go to the lake to get towed behind boats and canoe around because it's fun, sometimes we hike in the rain because it is a personal challenge, sometimes we climb that mountain because (wait for it) it is there. (and we can spit off the ledge)
  33. 3 points
    I agree with this. With my own son, he was on the fast track as well... He earned Life Scout in just over 2 years and 6 months. There was not an intentional push by his mother or I, but he was afforded many opportunities to complete merit badges in the first troop he was in. I told him that we were going to slow him down on advancement... I didn't want to see Eagle until he was in high school. I was afraid he might "Eagle Out" before he was even old enough to do high adventure! I didn't want him to participate less, just get his focus off of advancement. So, the first Summer Camp after we made this decision, he is selecting what merit badges he wants to do. He asked me if he could really sign up for whatever classes he wanted, because his prior troop required each boy to take an Eagle required merit badge class. I told him to sign up for whatever he wanted. He signed up for all of the water based activities and loved every minute of it. Came home and said that was the most fun he has had at Summer Camp because he wasn't worried about rank requirements and finishing merit badges. That's what camp should be... having fun! And if you happen to sign off some requirements as well, that's gravy!
  34. 3 points
    While I admit my dealing with Venturing are very limited, I do know that I can count on one hand the number of years my council had an "active" VOA. As far as the OA, I've had a lot more interactions. As a youth officer and 21-23 year old chapter advisor, I was pretty much ignored. I had to get one of my friends to pass off my ideas as his to get them even considered. I had one chapter chief so ticked off at the condecesion of one district committee meeting, he vowed never to attend again. And to this day, his successors have not attended anymore ( approx 7 years now). Talking to the current lodge chief, i discovered that after one incident, which I witnessed years ago, the lodge chiefs have not been attending the council executive board meetings because their voices are ignored. This lodge chief has already commented that he WILL be attending these meetings, and he will represent the voice of the youth in the council whether the adults like it or not. As for the incident that caused the LCs to stop attending, let's just say that the overwhelming opinion of the youth was not to do something. I want to say something like 90% of the youth did not want something to be done. The Lodge Advisor was furious at the results, and overrode the vote by saying "I don't care what you want, this is how it is going to be." When youth and adults started protesting by wearing their sashes inside out, he yelled " wear them properly or don't wear them at all." over half the people in attendance no longer wore their sashes. So forgive me if I do not think that youth have an actual voice that is listend to at the national level.
  35. 3 points
    Yeah, we wouldn't want our scouts to pick up on any of that garbage, right? Being responsible, doing chores, caring about others, being attentive. That would be awful.
  36. 3 points
    The only difference I see is that men have experience in being boys and women don't. That can be both a positive thing and a negative thing, but there is a difference. It is through training that we can help both experienced and inexperienced adults of both sexes deliver the program. Even training is no guarantee of good leadership. We have all seen lousy "experienced" leaders and great "inexperienced" leaders. There is certainly a spectrum. I will argue that in my experience the vast majority of helicopter parents are female. Maybe that's just in my local area, but I'd wager it is close to 70% easily. That's not saying that 70% of women are that way, just that of those folks deemed helicopter-ish 70% of them tend to be female.
  37. 3 points
    Exactly. It is already happening...perhaps National is just recognizing the trend and embracing it. Maybe the "Helicopters have just landed" and I have been out maneuvered!
  38. 3 points
    To be clear, as of 2/13/2018 and at 10:04 EST, as we may understand the basic intent of the decision to allow Girls into the Cubs and Scouts; Cub units do have the option to remain single gender. Also as faintly outlined there will be Girl Troops, so current Male only Boy Scout Troops will remain as such, so not really an option for Girls to join a current troop. That is of course subject to change based on a potential future survey given to people not involved in scouting at this time at the whim of BSA National (results will not actually be presented to the general public only the feedback that everybody will join if there are fully coed units)
  39. 3 points
    If I understood what you're saying, yes, it would be food for thought. Something lost in translation I think, sorry for my lack of understanding. I think what 'Skip is saying is that when he does get drama queens, of either gender, turning up, they either change/act differently, as his troop is not the place for drama, or they leave, for the same reasons. The rest of the kids just carry on in scouting. Why kids leave in the UK is for all sorts of reasons, not sure many of them are gender related. I have no evidence either way though. Yes, boys and girls are different, but you know what? Boys and boys are different too. So you treat them all the same, differently, depending on the sort of kid they are.
  40. 3 points
    That's just it, did youth have any say in the new policy? In my neck of the woods, the ones I talk to are against it. Don't know how many youth took the heavily biased for girls survey. Also do not know what the results of the membership survey was, but considering that those results have not been published by BSA, I do not believe the majority of those polled were in favor.
  41. 3 points
    @Mattosaurus First, your Eagle Project sounds great. My wife and I have participated in similar food packs and the experience was rewarding and fun for the volunteers in addition to providing desperately needed nourishment. I completely agree with Backpack. Work to rectify the documentation as quickly as possible. Admit you missed this requirement and already started collecting the funds. I don’t believe you would run into an issue unless there are significant concerns regarding your fundraising method. Talking with my father who runs EBORs there are frequent paperwork issues. They would much rather have scouts own and rectify the issue. Attempting to fudge data or having mom or dad run cover (make up fake excuses) is not a good method to address the gap. Keep up the good work and good luck!
  42. 3 points
    Having attended summer camp (multiple times) with my daughters and Boy Scout camp (multiple times) with my son, I can tell you from personal experience that what defines a good camp experience differs widely between boys and girls. The format of the two camp programs is dramatically different. I could go into specifics, but some here would surely label my observations as sexist. Nevertheless, these differences are very real. My daughters would not enjoy many of the things my son loves about camp, and vice-versa. Also from person experience, I can tell you that the behavior and focus of boys and girls changes dramatically when in the presence of the opposite sex. I have experienced this firsthand as a chaperone on overnight school science camps. The distractions can degenerate into a mini soap opera with all the intrigue over "he said, she said". And lastly, I can tell you from person experience that when girls step to fore, boys will step to the rear. They are happy to avoid work and let others take the lead. A "too cool for school" attitude surfaces among the boys who become conscious about the image they are projecting to the girls around them.
  43. 3 points
    Teenage boys act very different when they are around an all male group and a coed group. The social interactions of the group are different. I've witnessed this with activities between Scouts and JROTC with my son. Zip lining with an all male troop is different than zip lining with JROTC. While the activity is the same, the behavior and mannerisms of the boys are very different.
  44. 3 points
    I don't disagree. But if they wanted to make a splash, why not use the venue of World Jamboree 2019 to announce a fully-baked program instead of this botched rollout. The manipulative surveys, the deceptive information meetings, the predetermined outcome, and the lack of details (rest assured it will be amazing) ... I'm trying to think how BSA National could have actually done this *worse*.
  45. 3 points
    Okay, I'm a history teacher and let's try this on to see if it fits. At one point sports was an all-male activity. The first Olympics didn't have any females. So over the past "few" years, that has changed. And it did so incrementally. I suppose there was some hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth when women first began to compete in a "few" more genteel competitions. Then some crept in even before the BC/AD timeline. Over time more and more were added on an ever increasing pace until we reach today. But then along with women's sports, women's involvement in technology, industry and a ton of other advancements took off in the past 300 years. So Scouts starts out all-boy at a snail's pace, then we break the ice with Den MOTHERS in Cubs, then high school aged gals in the co-ed program, sprinkle in the female Boy scout leaders, time marches on. Whether it be sports, education, business, or the professional world, it's all the same "slippery slope." It hasn't been that long in our own history women have gone from land-owning to voting, etc. The same holds true for cultural and social "advancements". So when viewing the grand scheme of things, why does this whole situation of girls in scouting come along as any big surprise? People may not like it, but they have never been able to stop it's progression through time. Kicking and screaming, though it be, the one redeeming factor in this whole issue is: human kind has been able to adapt to the changes and eventually accepted them. We in our own little timeline of existence only see a very small fraction of the change, the last few seconds of an age-old timeline and for some reason seemed so surprised that it is happening as if it were a brand new event in the course of human history. Or even in this case scouting history. A quick cursory look at scouting, I think Mrs. Powell had already started the ball rolling right from the beginning with a "parallel" program of Girl Guides. This internet research is a lot easier than doing it with old encyclopedias and dusty libraries....
  46. 3 points
    (Moderator hat on) The discussion in this thread has gotten a little too personal (and not in a good way.) Let's please ALL take a "step back" (not a "step down") and remember to direct your remarks at the issue and the posts of others, and not the others themselves.
  47. 3 points
    This just makes me sad and also illustrates why it is so difficult for some troops to run effectively--parents don't know the culture and wont learn it because they are too busy trying to change it to what they want.
  48. 3 points
    Michael B. Surbaugh CES expressed some very anti-co-ed feelings at the national jamboree, he said things like a "single sex program was very important to boys development" and we would NOT be going co-ed. Maybe Michael should step back or step down. . .
  49. 3 points
    My personal opinion is the program will change dramatically, not so much by admitting girls, but from the adults that will join as a result of all the membership changes. Most of the adults will have very little understanding or experience with Patrol Method, so while it will be set up in the spirit of the handbooks, the adults won't let it process toward the design intention of the method. The adults that do know will be few and far between. If they don't know what they are looking for, they won't know how to drive toward it. Barry
  50. 3 points
    Well, I'm not a scout, but I do know that snipe are indigenous to swampy areas not woods. I think you would be sending me on a wild goose chase, but we all know wild geese hang out at rivers and lakes unless they are migrating and then will rest at night in open fields, again, not woods. However, if you would like, I could possibly look around the fire here and maybe find an old coot or two for you.
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