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  1. The following 2016 thesis submittal is really interesting. Interesting comments based on (starting page 28) Theissen polygon analysis of scouting membership data. Interesting figures start on page 28+. https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstream/handle/1808/24173/Hubbard_ku_0099M_15024_DATA_1.pdf?sequence=1 Obviously a pro-scouter. One sentence near the end is interesting and timely. "Scouting is not for everybody but for those who are active, the chief lessons are not discrimination, blind patriotism, or xenophobia; takeaways are self-reliance, critical thinking, the value of co
    8 points
  2. @seguru, welcome to the forum? Anyway, nobody said you can't express your opinion. But if you're not courteous then we will remove posts. Those are the rules.
    5 points
  3. So I did a bit of analysis of the abuse claims data that the TCC shared at the March town hall "for survivors". First of all a graph of abuse claims by year, linear scale. This may have been in one of the court filings already. It looks like claims were growing exponentially until the lase '60s, and have been falling exponentially since the late '70s... well before the formal adoption of YPT as such. Then I tried to compare number of victims to state population. Specifically, I compared against a blended fraction of the 1950, 1970 and 1990 censuses. There are
    5 points
  4. As a Skipper for a ship that is connected with the people at national that run this because we are basically already running on our own. There isn't inventory for Sea Scouts, the amount that BSA pays for Sea Scouts is extremely small and basically purely volunteer run. I don't know what you have against Sea Scouts, but you should do your homework on us before you try to throw our program under the bus. Our manuals are all PDF's, uniforms are purchased directly from Dickies or 5.11. You aren't paying OUR bills, I am many others raise money and pay money out of our pocket to Friends of Scou
    5 points
  5. In reply to questions, regarding yesterday's Zoom call where all the LCs were invited, the following is "public" information because it was discussed during the presentation and not part of any mediation confidentiality: 1) Which councils sat in and who from the council was there? There is a giant bit of difference between the professional Scout Exec sitting in and, say, the volunteer Council President or General Counsel, for example. Good question. Those involved with scouting should ask their Council Exec. The attendance was huge. 2) While I believe they went through "in gre
    4 points
  6. Sorry, I don't buy that. The moderators keep trying to keep this thread as just news about the court case. We have split off other threads, including what's fair, and nobody seems to be interested in keeping those threads going. Everyone just piles more into this thread, which by the way, is some hundreds of pages long if you include the previous ones we capped. When we try and tamp some of the anger down it's because the original intent (information about the court case) gets pushed to the side by everyone's opinions about what is right/wrong about everyone else's opinions. Personally, I
    4 points
  7. My opinion is that this has been one of the best threads on this site--great, timely, and unique raw information, excellent analysis and multiple perspectives even when they differ, and thoughtful moderation. That's sad, because it's not a program thread, which is where I think most of us would rather be. But in our current reality, I feel it is helping all of us try to wrap our minds around the incomprehensible. I have no doubt that there are some individuals in the BSA upper tier organization that I would respect and trust. However, the ones I have encountered so far, as well as some of the
    4 points
  8. BSA likely doesn’t want to show Summit as it will prove what we all know. It was and is a giant pit where they threw and continue to throw money into and is likely worth less than the debt owed. Give it to the TCC along with the debt assigned to it. BSA would be better off.
    4 points
  9. I wish there was more focus on quality rather than quantity. The number of quality programs is probably a better indicator of the future then the number of current youth.
    4 points
  10. One thing from me, after more publicly thanking you for this. Thank you. Sincerely. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." I appreciate this entire post. Good reflection and background for me. I can see your point in both paragraphs. Of course, none of this can be seen as "voluntary," per se. That's not your point and I get it. As I also said a few times, I agree that this was obviously not what they expected. Still, they should've braced themselves better, given some of the widely known research and their own internal data. Men don't come forward easily or early and the
    3 points
  11. There were various threads leading up to bankruptcy. It has been a long road. Pre 1990s, its clear that some in BSA leadership (it appears to be primarily National, but some LCs) actively hid cases of sexual abuse. There are now many quotes from BSA leaders (and other individuals including the Boys club) indicating that BSA hid abuse. This set the stage for what is happening now. BSA has seen a slow decline of participants since a 1990s surge. 2000 - 2018 ... BSA fought in court and public over gay/transgender youth & gay/transgender leaders. They managed to tick of
    3 points
  12. I would like to say thank you for these informative threads on the bankruptcy! Other than some info I found at reddit, there is not much out there to read. I enjoy the different opinions and the lessons about our legal system. BSA has a big mess on its hands. Some of the local councils have pulled their heads out of the sand, but I would guess that the average volunteer and parent are just clueless that Philmont Trek 2022 may be gone and they may need to drive a bit further for summer camp. I do have some opinions of my own that I will share. First, here is my $.02 on national B
    3 points
  13. How true. As I understand, Modit is a pilot (first run) program for kids this summer. However, I could see an age-appropriate version called Throwit for adults using the Throwit Jetfire System below. Back in the day, these were sold at our camp store. Fun!
    3 points
  14. Talk about drama. Other than the small cadre of Kosnoff-types, NO ONE (not the TCC, not the FCR, not even the Coalition) is talking about "destroying" BSA or scouting. NO ONE. That's just a straw-man. This is a Chapter 11, not a Chapter 7, proceeding. What is being discussed is how to come up with a financial plan for BSA (toggle plan) or BSA and the LCs (Global settlement) that Compensates the abuse victims to the maximum amount possible (TCC's sole mission) and Results in BSA (or BSA and the LCs) survival. The real debate is what is the "maximum amount possible
    3 points
  15. Time is money in this case. A much cheaper high adventure or summer camp can be done but it costs time. I read through some of the thesis and my impression is there have been numerous forces against the BSA that nobody has figured out how to deal with and it's been going on since the 50's. The East coast was already losing membership in the 60's, and that was the supposed golden age. Add in a culture war, the changing economy, poor management, sexual abuse and here we are. On the other hand, this past weekend I went camping for the first time in 18 months and kids still like playing
    3 points
  16. Thanks for following up on the lead! Some interesting findings on retention: "By far the biggest family-related factor affecting both retention and recruitment was the cost of Scouting, which arose in 20% of interviews. Several leaders commented that Scouting can be quite expensive when accounting for membership fees, uniform and supply costs, and the costs of summer camps or high adventure experiences. " It raises the question of whether we are pricing a significant number of potential and current Scouts out of the program.
    3 points
  17. So, just had a surreal experience and I really, really wish those people in this forum that insist BSA is full of "honorable" men and that the claimants are all frauds/the lawyers are vultures would have the same. Let me explain. This morning I checked the Omni Court Docket and saw that the clerk had put online 8 letters from sexual abuse victims that were mailed to Judge Silverstein. I won't link to them but I encourage all of your who are unquestionably defending BSA to read those 8 letters. They are from young(er) and older. They are from Eagle Scouts, OA, Cub Scouts.
    3 points
  18. I still cannot get over this. I mean, all that the BSA has to do is turn over some financial statements regarding Summit to the court and TCC for review as to whether or not the JP Morgan note is legitimate or not. I remain convinced it is either a) fraudulent or b) legit but would show that Summit is such a massive sink hole of money that it would be a shocking embarrassment. And based on the latest news reports, it is likely BOTH. Boy Scouts Say Tort Claimants Can't Challenge $350M Note So, there's the fraud. Now, here's the embarrassing sink hole of money. Let that
    3 points
  19. In a bankruptcy, the burden is on the debtor (BSA) to demonstrate it is operating openly and honestly regarding its finances. BSA is deliberately trying to hide information about the precise status of Summit, the debt for Summit/Arrow, WV, and where all the money went. I suspect it is one of two things: 1) SOME money went to pay down Summit/Arrow, WV debt. SOME. Where the rest went? Let's see the financials. That is ALL the sexual abuse victims are asking for. 2) The theory @Eagle1993just mentioned: ALL the money went to pay down Summit/Arrow, WV and has proven to be an unm
    3 points
  20. I wish that was the same for all the programs. I know materials have been moving that direction, but I'll be glad to see more and more move that direction.
    3 points
  21. OK I am going to venture into the Sea Scouting/Venturing mess. 1. Sea Scouting is the second oldest program in the BSA, being founded in 1912, because it is the second oldest Scouting program worldwide, officially being created in 1910 but BP mentions going on sailing expeditions with his brothers as a youth. As @mashmasterhas stated, Sea Scouting folks have been talking care of themselves for an extremely long time as they have been the red-headed stepchildren of the BSA since before I was a Sea Explorer in the 1990s. Volunteers have really picked up the slack that BSA dropped. N
    3 points
  22. If you are signing up for Sea Base make sure your e-check payments actually go through. I made my 30 day payment 5 days early after the initial deposit. Everything looked fine. Got a confirmation email of payment. No problem. This week I wanted to check when our next payment is due and I noticed that I was overdue for my 30 day payment. It said the payment had been cancelled but I never got a notification of this. Contacted Sea Base and they said they would check and assured me my Crews were not cancelled. Called the bank and the funds had never been transferred but there were suff
    3 points
  23. I cannot tell you how many times I've been the one to tell Council and District level professionals about things from National. BSA's communications apparatus is just horrible and it has not gotten any better over the years. I'd even say it is worse, but that might be overselling the point.
    3 points
  24. I don't see any rules or in fact any problems with this. The boy got to do stuff with the older scouts and hopefully had fun. Maybe that will excite him to join the troop when he is old enough. It would have been worse if he attended and didn't get to do anything. He might have decided Troops are boring and don't want him. I don't understand the point about why they should have informed you. Any of your scouts should feel comfortable visiting any troop at anytime, not just when there is an invitation. My advice would be to let it go, it is all good.
    3 points
  25. Does Grand Rapids issue you an annual charter or some other such right to continue operations? Do they have any intellectual or other property you utilize that they can retract or withhold? Do they have the unilateral right to withhold that annual renewal or a right to revoke? I'm asking because I don't know, not because I'm taking potshots. I also don't know the inner workings and details of the BSA annual charter and all that rot. Trying to understand your comparison of the two contexts. Thanks.
    2 points
  26. I have a mixed opinion on this. I know it’s nearly impossible to have 100% safety and society has changed over time in terms of understanding child sex abuse and how to increase protections. I do think BSA is doing most of what it can now. That said, I really struggle saying BSA wasn’t at fault pre 1990s. What is your thoughts when you hear that the head of the Big Brother program approach the BSA to work on preventing sex abuse in 1980 and the BSA did nothing. That psychologist in 1981 wrote to BSA leaders that they need to vet Scoutmasters more given the abuse. Nothing. That BSA
    2 points
  27. We've debated till our faces are blue about BSA being at fault for past abuses. Sadly, we're of different opinion here too. I can't blame BSA causing further harm by legally pursing bankruptcy. Society is foolish to think that revisiting these sins of the past ever heals the present. Even more foolish to think that any financial compensation corrects for damages. Blame the legislatures who extended liability from decades ago. Blame advocates who think that's a good idea to muck rake the past. Blame lawyers chasing ambulances. Blame empty promises saying you will get signific
    2 points
  28. I think it's also important to point out that it seems like the people who are posting about this on this forum or are mostly lurking but popping in from time to time are... the relative success stories, if that would be the correct term? They were somehow able to function and hold jobs despite needing therapy and experiencing bleak episodes in their lives. The people who are not on here weighing in and likely not even included in the 83,000 claims are the ones who were largely lost. The ones who committed suicide, or turned around and became abusers themselves because that is a common sequela
    2 points
  29. Yet again you are implying that the $6000 average per person is the sum total of what a victim would receive when you must know this isn't true. The vast majority of the funds for claims against the BSA were/are always going to be coming from the insurance companies. That is of course the whole reason organizations buy insurance. Disagree with the proposed amount all you wish, but let's not be disingenuous about the whole thing. Yes, but since since the accused in today's world is effectively presumed guilty, the impact is much more significant on the accused than on the ac
    2 points
  30. I think you have to adapt to your demographics. I hear about troops in other parts of the country that are very active in the summer but it in our area it's almost impossible to pull off. Very few people are around enough to do much more than summer camp and some ad hoc stuff. We are also perennially short of adult volunteers, most of them are two career families, and most of them seem to want to kick back some over the summer. Summer is really not that much of a break in family activity anymore. As far as the OP, I think the key is to set expectations ahead of time. Our unit has never
    2 points
  31. There were issues on my.scouting.org in 2019 where many scouters took the YPT training, but it was not recorded. I had to send a screen capture of proof that I completed YPT to my council, so they can manually update the official status with the BSA. I had to do the same with 5 others in my unit, until the issue was fixed late in 2019. This year I could not recharter anyone that did not have YPT up to date, so for my council over 99% of the scouters are in compliance. There are a few scouters whose YPT lapsed after recharter, but they ceased involvement in scouting after recharter. (Thus
    2 points
  32. So ... just a quick reset ... I'm sure others can add/modify. Just attempting to see where this case stands. BSA has created a 2nd settlement offer that has 2 parts. One with a higher payout that would include LC & COs and settle their lawsuits and and 2nd that would only protect National (with a lower offer). BSA negotiated a settlement with Hartford Insurance for $650M. I believe this is only included if the total package passes (as it includes a settlement for all LCs). I don't believe I have seen a formal objection from the TCC to the 2nd offer ... but I'm sure it
    2 points
  33. Before now, I have read a number of the cases. There are many horrific accounts. Beyond that, I have cared for patients who were abused as children and, like PTSD, the results can be ruin lives and relationships. I have never said that people who were abused should not be compensated nor have ever called them names.
    2 points
  34. hmmm. While I agree with the concept of recruiting for scouts, I am not sure it is a good idea to require a public school to have a private organization recruit to a captive audience.
    2 points
  35. Here's what I want you to do. Right now. Go to to Omni Court Docket for the BSA bankruptcy. https://cases.omniagentsolutions.com/documents?clientid=CsgAAncz%2b6Yclmvv9%2fq5CGybTGevZSjdVimQq9zQutqmTPHesk4PZDyfOOLxIiIwZjXomPlMZCo%3d&tagid=1153 Search the documents for the phrase "Letter Regarding Abuse" and read them. Most are heavily redacted, you want to know why? Because within those black bars are the details of the abuse and the abuser. Some go on for pages. Even beyond the black bars there are details enough: dates, locations, locations within locations (e.g. traile
    2 points
  36. I can't recall anyone saying that scouting was a bargain, poor choice of words. But, they will say the value of what they got from scouting is worth the price. Still, I know the cost can be intimidating. Our units, district, and council, always had scholarship funds available FOR ANYONE that wanted to participate, but was limited by their funds. If families wanted to participate, funding is there. But, in general, the families that ask for help were the ones that felt the program was worth the asking. Same goes with the families that could afford the cost. If scouting has to measured as a barg
    2 points
  37. That's some myth busting that has been much needed. So many scouters will argue that scouting is a bargain compared to other youth activities and yet we hear differently on the street... or, er... in the woods.
    2 points
  38. Don't forget that PSZJ Law also has offices in NYC. This may be a sign, hopefully, that they are hashing out details for a settlement. BSA knows that they cannot exit bankruptcy successfully without TCC approval. TCC knows that BSA can burn up another hundred million + of cash on legal fees ... which will never go to the claimants. They also likely know National BSA's true financial situation ... more than any of us on this forum. They likely know that insurance companies, LCs and perhaps COs are the bigger targets. So, perhaps, the BSA and TCC and sit down and work out a d
    2 points
  39. As one of the guilty, I love this line of friendly jesting and mockery. Regardless the historic basis and reasons, our use of language can be absurd in its lack of clarity and accessibility. I believe that was the initial poke, as well as an admission of a lack of patience and understanding of legal gibberish. It was a poke at us and himself. Jolly good humor, I say. While working in legal affairs for an entertainment company, I got in trouble for redrafting a series of agreements to make them understandable to the artists forced to sign them. It was one of my proudest moments as an attor
    2 points
  40. I'm going to put on my "Moderator" hat here for a second: Directly responding to another member is acceptable and a desirable part of this medium. I even understand that at times, emotions will peak and there might be a response that includes some sarcasm, snark, criticism or even anger; however, responses MUST move the conversation forward. If you find yourself writing a response that includes some of those "negative" feelings, I ask you to do two things. First, wait a few minutes after typing before you post, then re-read your writing and make sure it really reflects what you w
    2 points
  41. Just to follow up in case someone else gets in a jam. I had the kids play Ga Ga ball as a gathering activity. We then came together and I had 1 den lead the Pledge and the other lead the Scout Oath and Law. I then asked who enjoyed the Cuboree, favorite activities, and pumped them up for future camping trips. After that, I had them play sharks and minnows as a team-building game. We had a family join a few weeks ago, so I'm trying to help their Tiger and Bear get as many requirements knocked out as possible. After a couple of rounds, the kids were tired - possible ulterior motive from a
    2 points
  42. Read: "Yippee! Great for us. Great for BSA (though we don't really care about that.) We're getting out of this for a song and a prayer. Our butts are so far exposed on these ill-advised policies it's not even funny. Well, maybe it is. Jokes on you, BSA CSA victims..." "Prudent defenses" and "legal postures." Ha. Read: "Yes, we have coverage defenses, but we are by no means confident in the strength or weight of those defenses. This is a happy exit for Hartford!"
    2 points
  43. When you see quantities drop like this, it is hard to argue we have a lot of quality units.
    2 points
  44. Yes and double for footnotes, triple for terms of art and quadruple for Latin.
    2 points
  45. The attrition rate for DEs is north of 50% in the first 2 years in good times. The pay translates to about $12.00/hour-( figure $36K divided by 60 hours of nights and weekends a week times 50 weeks.) No home/ work life balance. If you do your job you might get 3% raise. When you get to Senior DE you might get 5% and a whole lot more responsibility like camp director or fundraising or media director on top of your 40 +units. Try doing that in a pandemic with 40% reduction in membership, businesses closed for a year and a bankruptcy. And for the councils in Eastern North Carolina add in
    2 points
  46. That was a LONG document. I reviewed the redline a bit ... looks like the major changes $1,500 payout option for those that select it (if the plan is approved). Updated dates Clarified process for firms voting for their claimants. BSA will need written evidence for each claimant that they agree to have their legal representative vote for them or BSA will send the ballot directly to the claimant. (Before, it appears they would have allowed the firm to sign a document stating they have approval to vote). Tight timeline to submit those documents to BSA as well.
    2 points
  47. Right, and that's my point. These are not really "executives" in the sense of C-level corporate office types. So OP's assertion that there were a lot of "executives" was something of an inaccuracy.
    2 points
  48. I would still call HQ that you have heard some things which are concerning. Let them investigate. Not our job to seek out or wait for evidence, that is the purpose of investigating. We report concerns.
    2 points
  49. It must be nice to have the luxury to fret over a “might try” of anything. But since you asked ... Your committee chair does not have to let anybody sign on as an adult leader to his committee. If you have a parent or two who the CC respects enough to welcome into your unit, their needs come first over someone who has wrongly approached a parent. Scouts is not a social event for parents. It’s where we teach young people how to forestall death. Have some of us made life-long friendships that have outlasted our kids’ time in scouting? Yes! Would I call them out if any of them made any of
    2 points
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