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There certainly is room for discussion on those points, and on CO rights when it comes to membership, etc. My concern here is not about individual units, or CO discretion when it comes to who they allow to be a part of their chartered unit. This is about the broader ongoing harassment about girls being in the BSA at all, from people who very clearly would like to see girls excluded from the Scouts BSA program entirely.4 points
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Thank you all for the input. We spoke with the camp and they will make sure that troops follow the proper procedure and that no one will have sole use over any portion of the facilities.3 points
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It's been 5 years of girls being in the Scouts BSA program, and yet every time the BSA posts a picture featuring a girl in uniform on Instagram, out come the scouts, scouters, and what appears to be just random other adults to complain about girls being in the BSA. I was in a virtual training session held by the Marketing team at National last night and a Scouter took to the chat to complain about gay and trans youth being allowed in the program. Then I go over to reddit and read a story about a girl who got nasty looks from supposed "adults" at a restaurant because she was an Eagle3 points
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I'm curious, what is the latest traditional male gender role that is considered a threat? I'm one of those people who believe mixing females into the patrols puts the males at a disadvantage for personal growth, and possibly some harm by the adults. So, I struggle with the idea that girls are the ones at risk. I've seen way too much overhype on this forum to not be concerned for the boys. One poster was bragging just the other day about all the girl cubs on the podium after the derby races. What was the point of the statement? Were boys also on the podium? We don't know, but we can imagin3 points
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I recently took a flight and as we approached the destination gate I heard something along the lines of "We know you have many choices when choosing carriers and thank you for choosing XXX airlines" The same is true of Scout camps. If the camp cannot at least make an attempt to correct the situation they should not be surprised if that unit does not return next year.3 points
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3 points
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And which part of the Scout Oath and Law makes it OK to make up your own rules when you don't like the ones you agreed to follow when you signed your membership application?3 points
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I'd be having a conversation with the Camp Director, now. Make it clear to them- you're open to THEIR suggestions on how to share the use of the latrine, but explain in exactly the terms you outline here why only having the outside facility is not acceptable. It's a true public health issue if you and your troop cannot wash hands at times during the day. And, you're troop is paying the same as that troop, so it is not acceptable to you. If moving that troop to adjoin another site that has a female troop is a better option, then let the camp do so.3 points
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I thought that one of the points of YPT was to, in fact, shield scouts from people wishing to do harm? A lot of YPT is about prevention. Allowing hateful comments to remain on BSA social media posts (many remain and aren't deleted) seems like it would go against what we're trained to do, to stop the harm from continuing. We wouldn't just opt to ignore bullying comments made in-person, we respond to them, stop them, and address the scout or scouts making them. Comments made to make scouts feel unwelcome in the BSA constitute bullying, no matter where they happen. We certainly can't sh3 points
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Instagram is a public forum. And the BSA is tagging the troops they repost content from, so the scouts and scouters in those troops can (and do) see the comments. Yes I spoke up, as I intend to do anywhere I see this stuff, as well as share my concerns directly with whoever at National I can get to listen, starting with folks like Lisa Schuchart. So... what then? Adults should tell their scouts to not look at the posts the BSA tagged their troop in because of peoples' right to make hateful comments aimed at those scouts? Why do the kids have to look the other way on posts that t3 points
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There is certainly more hostility and rudeness everywhere today. IMHO, correcting character mistakes by following the Scout Oath and Law is part of the game's purpose as is having the Courtesy to express our thoughts civilly and listen to other viewpoints. Maybe uniformed Scouts should, once again, be at all voting locations this November? My $0.01 for rambling,3 points
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I guess it depends on what side of the fence one stands on where the haters are. Just look at the title of this discussion, The BSA should get tough on scouts and scouters? One fairly new scouter even suggested I be censored on a discussion of mixed genders. Seems some folks are willing to push hostility to a new level to get what they want. So, explain to me why I should encourage my grandkids to join the BSA in this hostile environment. The game has lost the purpose. Barry3 points
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3/19/2024 excerpt from WOSM: Scouting for equality: Empowering voices against gender-based violence at UN Women’s Summit3 points
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Haters gonna hate. It’s hard to toe a hard line as BSA risks losing those who disagree. Not meant as an excuse, just a reality. Important thing is that BSA stays on track and does not waiver. Change takes time, and it will get there. Keep advocating.3 points
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Glad to see such things, too bad its not virtual. BSA really needs to include neurodiverity in its adult training, especailly since scouts seems to draw ND. So many neurotypicals just don't get it.3 points
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My apologies for not understanding This is a challenging time for young people. Politics and cultural extremisms are driving everyone to pick a side with no gray area. Life was simple when I was a scout, it was a little more complicated when I was leader, but nothing like now. My high school teacher son is very frustrated. He had a student commit suicide a few months ago. One of three in the past few years. The problem from his perspective is social media. Kids today get all their identity from social media and that puts them in a very volatile place to find themselves. One day socia2 points
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Right. Signs can be moved. Schedules can be adjusted. Separate times scheduled and posted for youth/adult and female/male is good practice. That the troop was unable to accommodate male troop camping next to them speaks volumes of their leadership.2 points
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I"m sure this camp falls under a council. How about bringing it up to the council board. Just not going is good for your unit, but leaves the same problem that would fill your troop's week. How about identifying the troop to council and camp that took over the latrine. I'm more of the thinking Scouts can be courteous, but not a weak victim and just take it on the chin. Standing up for yourself and others is scout like too...brave? And to those leaders on the site (I hope they contribute) that condone taking over the latrine, you allowed Scouts to show an ugly side of shared camping and2 points
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I found self-organizing was key. Not right away but just ahead of the next elections we had "patrol re-org night". SPL announced "You are all released from your patrols!" They were given 30 minutes to "congeal" into new patrols. It was interesting. We started with 5 Patrols, we ended with 5 Patrols. Noone specified max/min Patrol size nor number of patrols - we just let it happen. I was worried about this as we have 5 patrol kits... so as much as I love the Patrol Method - sometimes practical considerations do play a part. As it turned out, the politics and awkwardness involved wi2 points
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This is a camp problem, not a you problem. Echoing similar advice: Don't leave it to chance. Address it with them before committing to camp and then hold them to it. If they can't commit to making it a comfortable experience (facilities and experience/emotionally) then find a better option if you can.2 points
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A Scout is Trustworthy. Full stop. That's my agenda--I'm not being secretive about it. I love the tortured logic to arrive at your conclusion though.2 points
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I hope OK to post: I grabbed it from a US Fish and Wildlife Service page. Clear skies tonight will be good for migration, so tomorrow could be interesting depending on where you are.2 points
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Sadly, at least in our society, it seems as if the concepts on which Scouting is built, again what we all Scout Spirit, are too often seen as out of the main stream, or quaint. We come back to the slurring tone of "you are such a Boy Scout", and so on. Well, being a Boy Scout is a positive thing in my view. And that includes the modern model that includes girls, women, and any that can abide by the Spirit.2 points
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Let's be careful here... Rules (and rulemakers) cannot perfectly address all situations. Just like laws (and lawmakers) cannot. There has to be room for judgment, common sense, and matters of conscience. For example, take something simple like the speed limit. It is the law. Day to day, I obey it, even though it is really inconvenient. (Yes, I am that guy on the road, in the right lane with cruise control set to the speed limit 😜 ) But, if I am transporting a Scout to the emergency room, you can bet your boots I am speeding. I will break that law. The situation demands it.2 points
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Since you mentioned "Do I really spell out why that's contrary to the Scout Law?"... can you help me understand how a Pack "ignoring the separate dens by gender rule" isn't contrary to the Scout Law? Does that teach our Scouts that a Scout is Trustworthy? Ignoring rules that don't fit our agenda ("my scouts' ability to scout together") and then making reference to the Scout Law is rich.2 points
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The sad thing with this is that historically, BSA has been very inclusive overall. They were far ahead in acceptance of other races, especially Blacks, though dealing with the larger society was a real challenge. Yet even in the South, there are historical proof that some found a way for them to be involved. Similarly, when the Gay issue hit the fan, the issue was forced on BSA from society, rather than BSA making it an issue. I still feel that the Dale fiasco was brought on by people outside the actual unit and it members. They were aware, but simply had not felt it worth worrying about.2 points
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Chris was a grown adult and took a real risk doing what he did. He shouldn't have had to do that. I think that's where some of the confusion and frustration is coming from. Whether it's someone like Chris, an adult man trying to bird in Central Park in one of the biggest, most diverse cities in the world, and still encountering problems, or an insecure teenaged female, trans or gay scout just trying to find a unit to camp with... what is really left to discuss at this point? Shouldn't they just be free to do and enjoy what anyone else does?2 points
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If BSA wants to tacitly make room in the tent for folks who don't really want to fully integrate girls, LGBTQ+, trans, etc., in their units, that's fine and their right as a private organization. But they have no problem pointing to all the DEI statements and actions they have taken since at least 2015 in response to sponsorship withdrawals, PR crises, and membership declines that say the opposite when marketing and promoting the program to the public. BSA should either address it or be honest and say DEI isn't consistently applied at the unit level.2 points
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Yes. A scoutlike and rational discussion please on all topics otherwise how will BSA policies and implementations improve and kids benefit. If there is a YP problem, it will not be tolerated. Settled? IMHO, membership policy is still evolving.2 points
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While nothing is foolproof, a funny story to put this point of "fingerprinting" and "background checks" into perspective... I was attacked in the early 1970s, ran from my attacker the moment he let go, and have not stopped running since. Rather than hiking, camping, rock-climbing, and ice-climbing, I focused on drinking and trumpet playing. (I stopped drinking in 2005, simply because my age made it impossible for me to keep drinking.) I spent quite a bit of those 30+ years camping. While I lacked the proper back-country camping permits required by the authorities, the rangers and n2 points
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Some very cogent statements here, and it seems to me to verify my oft made comment that the changes in BSA, or our society in general, have to occur in the normal evolutionary way. Almost every forced change finds serous societal kickbacks, and sadly, tends to bring out the worst in those with the least aptitude for interpersonal living. We again come back to the simple premise of the "Golden Rule".2 points
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I mostly agree. My fear is BSA does the best when it focuses on adventure and skills. Everything else is about natural learning. BSA sucks when it tries to force what should be naturally learned. Society is debating these bigger topics. I disagree with "start having the conversations", "promote education ... on gender equality" and "empower men and boys ... on gender equality". I fully believe in "creating a safe space" and "build the culture". I believe we can do that very effectively. The trouble with the first is that society is having huge debates still on these topics. If y2 points
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2 points
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Just to clarify my thoughts on BSA membership policy. I disagree with it (among other things) and I will speak out - in a scoutlike way to bring about IMHO positive change for kids. In moving forward, I believe we can reach workable compromises if we can agree it is for the kids. That said, we have seen repeatedly where membership policy has changed before there was the necessary prerequisite education, facilities, and resources in place. Be prepared. ~RS2 points
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I honestly don't know how to explain it to an adult any more than I can explain faith to someone without it. I feel like it's one of those things like Peter Pan once you hit a certain age "practicality" takes the driver seat. But these are youth and they need and crave fun and adventure. If you can't understand that's better delivered with a "band of brothers" than force marched into "groups that make sense" it will be hard to convince you. In my unit, I had to force it. I had the "luxury" of being the new Scoutmaster and therefore holding the authority to insist we at least try it th2 points
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I have received a determination. The claim was allowed. But the amount allowed was under 5% of the maximum for the bracket and just over 10% of the minimum. This is all due to legal technicalities of the state where I was abused. I probably will appeal but can see where it's headed. And I'm sure it will be years if I ever actually receive even that amount. Not surprised. If they only pay 10% of that amount based upon recovery, this will not even begin to have been worth it. Just wanted to update others that determinations have begun.2 points
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While I have never contributed much to FOS, as my donations go to the troop first, then in support of specific programs, I have not donated to the endowments directly either. On the other hand, what I have donated into is similar to what the idea of endowments is, but more immediate. But, I think it is clearer to me now. Thanks.2 points
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From the Scouts of America, our well wishes to Scouter Kate for a speedy recovery. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-686414412 points
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I think it was poor forecasting more than anything else. They started it when scouting had already experienced significant declines and hit an almost 50% drop by the time they closed. The declines were influenced largely by changing demographics and not Covid or bankruptcy; at that point its financial problems were many and unrelated to those things. It was also pointed out it made no sense to try to build local membership with an expensive national center. I'm not aware what market research was done on its scout appeal, but it was never on the list for our units -- they wanted Philmont or Sea2 points
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You have to wonder how anyone responsible for the Summit mess is still serving. He should have resigned. I'm a little worried Roger Krone will see Summit as a legacy building project and focus his efforts on trying to turn it around vs. addressing some of the more mundane issues that hamper program, like declining volunteerism. National Meeting is coming up. Hopefully we'll hear something about what he has been doing other than making videos for the past six months which, while good, haven't resulted in any visible action so far.2 points
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Schools of thought will vary, partly dependent on how far your personal history may go back. For me, we still had basic khaki with simple embroidery; 1955-62 as youth, and did not see the more colorful ones until they first were issued, and I was an adult. Not sure if that sways me towards the earlier, less brash coloration, or if it is something else. I still like the more simple designs personally; but I like the modern merit badges better, as they help identify the subject a little better. Indirectly, I would love to see OA become less over the top. Patches that cover the entire pocket2 points
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Ha ha! Pounder is listed for one of the sessions somewhere, I can't remember when or where I saw it in some obscure place. One would think they would be highlighting his presence but maybe we're back to pretending youth protection problems don't exist.1 point
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AwakeEnergy: I grant that your Pack clearly violated a Scout is Obedient. I remember learning something to the effect of "A Scout is obedient. A scout follows the rules of his family, school, troop, community, and country. If he deems a rule to be unfair or unjust, he tries to have them changed in orderly fashion rather than disobeying them." So, yes, your Pack violated Obedient--perhaps with sound rationale, but a violation nonetheless. Maybe we can add that to the list of the things the BSA should crack down on! I chose to emphasize Scout is Trustworthy because the ease at which people1 point
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We follow a similar process to @InquisitiveScouter's. SM and CC conference ahead of annual planning, align on any fundamental shifts in year-to-year policies (similar to IS's notes: We have standing expectation of 1 outing per month, 1 in-state / 1 out-of-state summer camp, and certain other activities we pre-commit to each year like helping with pack crossover weekend, etc.) This seed the "parameters" for annual planning. SM and PLC conduct annual planning. CC is invited to participate. We review school, council, district, and OA calendars so we can participate and avoid1 point
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It is a continuing mystery to me why some cannot simply separate themselves mentally, and if possible physically from things that annoy them. We all hear the comment, "turn off the TV" on a fairly regular basis. That more or less is the same thing. IF it bothers you, separate as you can and then stay away as you choose. In most cases nobody is forcing you to do anything other than be in the same vicinity. JMHO of course.1 point
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100% everything you just said, @FireStone! Bravo! And for any scouts and prospective parents reading this, there are units out there that are in fact on board with the scouting movement's commitment to feminism as per @RememberSchiff's post above. I and my scout have been nothing but welcomed by our pack and council IRL, and one of the male leaders was so thrilled to see girls sweep the speed podium at our Pinewood Derby this year that he talked about it throughout teardown. There are male allies in the BSA.1 point
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As many local Councils have in the past ten years, National needs to re-evaluate the financial viability of their assets and program delivery solutions. Let questions be asked: Rebuild local camps? Can we afford Summit or will annual membership fees continue to rise to cover mortgage payments? Do we need a permanent, large Jamboree site? Have any Jamborees held there been self-sustaining financially? ... Another $0.02,1 point
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It can’t be FOS dollars. It needs to go to the council endowment. Most (all?) gifts to the endowment are explicitly directed to go into that fund. So, likely no, most longer term scouters do not qualify for the James West Award.1 point
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Poor forecasting is an understatement. A big problem is location. Not near a major airport, so using it for training opportunities is pretty darn tough. We've got municipal airports in the northeast that dwarf Raleigh County Memorial Airport, and you can't get flights to it without zig-zagging around the US from some destinations. I suspect that is why things like the annual meeting, OA national committee meetings, etc. are not often making the rounds to be held there. There is limited onsite hotel accommodations at the Summit, but to me, we are in a camping-oriented program, so use it for NOA1 point
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1 point