Leaderboard

RE the BSA going Chapter 7, that's HIGHLY unlikely under the relative progress of the current plan. The "heavy lifting", as in lawyers and professionals working and running up bills, has been done to a large extent. Continued drain will be painful but not unsustainable for the period of time while this works its way through the courts. IF, the plan is completely tossed out it's going to be tough for the BSA to start over but the big issue is the importance of the third-party releases as they relate to the over 1,000 charter orgs. The LC's have said, and said in District Court, that CO rele

My career is in insurance, and I can state that insurance carriers settle cases often simply because the cost of litigation and resulting bad PR are considered a better option. Generally settlement agreements will contain language like "payment under this agreement shall not be construed as or deemed to be evidence of an admission or concession of any point of fact or law on the part of XYZ". And let someone else do the cooking for you

It's not that they are not approved... It's that those positions are not part of the "adult fee required position(s)" That is, you must be registered in some other position before you can be a Chapter or Lodge Adviser, insofar as I understand this... As @HashTagScouts alludes, they must first be in a District (or unit or council) fee paid position, before they can wear the additional hat of Adviser.

Lodges are Council programs, not units. There are no BSA position codes for Lodge Adviser/Lodge Associate Adviser etc.

I follow it religiously, to protect Scouts and Scouters, and to protect my family assets and security (in that order).

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/ Prohibited Activities The Boy Scouts of America’s general liability policy provides coverage for a bodily injury or property damage claim that is made and arises out of official Scouting activity. The Guide to Safe Scouting contains a listing of prohibited activities. Prohibited activities are not considered official Scouting activities. Volunteers (registered and unregistered), units, chartered organizations, and local councils jeopardize insurance coverage for themselves and their organization by engaging in prohibited ac

@KublaiKen, Well, BSA's insurance was suppose to cover all the COs and councils from lawsuits. We are seeing how that is working out.

My #1 gripe is using the term "leader" vs Scouter or "Adult Supervision". The scouts should be leading. The adult Scouters are there for supervision and safety NOT to lead. (Except for cubs). And YES this matters.

BSA is trying not to scare the daylights out of folks, but, essentially if you don't follow BSA guidelines, your unit may very well find themselves on the liability hook. A good friend of mine is an attorney, and represented a family that was involved in a lawsuit with a neighboring Council. The Unit Leader and Chartered Organization were also named in the suit. Ironically, it was a case that involved exactly what Fr. John alludes to. The unit had an outing in NH, had a parent that was not a registered adult leader attending and transporting his son and two other scouts. Vehicle got into a car

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/02/14/lets-take-a-moment-to-watch-the-oregon-trail-councils-video-on-scouting-safely/ Thoughts on the council initiative to utilize the SAFE Checklist. https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safe/

So the awaited change to the GSS has happened. With some few exceptions, I think, adults camping overnight outside of Cub Scouts must be registered adults in fee-paid positions or program participants. MBCs are specifically excluded. https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/?fbclid=IwAR3Va17cZl5U4Aj-HqKFXP4Havk9mtp530Mrw6GJ7ZFdBlRQX9I25GsfXNA

That would be my understanding of the rule.

I believe that the insurance is for the BSA and not for individuals. When sued, insurance covers the BSA. The question at hand is whether volunteers and/or staff are indemnified under the policy as well. One can be certain that a lawsuit will name everyone and everything and let the court sort it out.

Interestingly, our new CO wants to see the policy, and we are still going through those hurdles now. It is a dark tunnel, with no light in sight. I am actually surprised it isn't asked for more by COs, especially now.

A big thing for me is that I am the policy holder and not the BSA. 🙂

I honestly don't know. I believe that if BSA did not cover some volunteers, and word got out, there could be a mass exodus of adult volunteers. I believe this is a great fear they have. So, in many cases, they choose to settle it under insurance, and maybe pay a little higher premium, than have the program collapse for lack of adults. But, legally, if you were not following the G2SS, I could see where the insurance company and BSA could say, "You are on your own..."

I believe, that, like any insurance company, their attorneys will seek out ANY excuse to lessen their obligation to pay damages. Those who choose to ignore rules and guidelines and "reasonable" decision making do so at their own peril.

I might be too old. It may be time if I go on campouts, I just need to find a tree to put my chair under. 😁

Ditto. It's insanely sound advice, whether insurance covers you or not. At least we can all agree that insurance only covers you if you travel in Class A.

You still can, but it will only cover your co-pays. And that is Accident and Sickness coverage... that's a different policy than General Liability. Also, did you know?? If you kick the bucket (heart failure) within 90 days of participating in a BSA event, your survivors can claim a $10K benefit? *Includes loss of life resulting from Heart Failure within 90 days from the date participating in an approved Boy Scouts or Learning for Life (if purchased) activity: ———————————– ■ Life* $10,000 Your council plan might vary... HSR Brochure.pdf

I don't know. I only know in the single instance in this thread where we know what happened, the plaintiff got paid despite Scouting policies being violated, and even the law. A single data point doesn't prove the case, but clearly the insurer saw liability or exposure of some kind (maybe just PR? We don't know.) and paid to make it go away. I get it. I am the only one who doesn't believe that the insurance won't cover you if you are violating the GSS. I would say that your belief is healthy and is probably a good indicator that you will follow the GSS. I am sure that was a good part of B

Yes, and I'm sure that the decision to pay isn't binary, as language saying "they won't cover you" would imply. Note that in @HashTagScoutsexample above, though we don't know if the driver was at fault in the accident, we know he was not only violating Scout policy, but the law itself, and guess what? They got paid.

Agreed, and there is a difference between negligence and willful (or criminal) conduct.

I still think it is a good idea for units to operate in the same manner as when the tour permits were required.

Here is my log for this fire BSA will never put out some thing that could be viewed as negative. (but True) do not scare the volunteers off If most volunteers and charter partners where told that if a event occurs and BSA insurance determines that you where not following BSA safety rules your on your own , remember what you signed in that charter agreement (Personal Defense and liability costs in the 9 figures for wrongful death of an 12 year old.) No rational person would knowingly take that on. Even more so in the light of BSA past insurance issues, Love the study of outdoor ris

No, adult program participants are clearly defined as members who are 18 but not yet 21 and are registered in programs like Sea Scouts, Venturing, and Exploring. So those two positions are not adult program participants, nor are they "an adult fee required position as listed," since they aren't on the list. Obviously they can hold additional registered positions, like at the unit level as mentioned above, but that shouldn't be a requirement, should it? I think those positions should be listed, for clarity if nothing else.

We currently have only one (Chapter) Adviser that is not associated to a unit. They are registered as a District Member-at-large.

One small suggestion … if it’s at all that important, a scouter shouldn’t have to click through and advance the video to find out what s.a.f.e. stands for. It’s also not clear how the checklist would have addressed the incident that inspired it. I would love its implementation to forestall death. But how does this do what the sweet 16 does not?

Deleted my thread. 😄

The substantial contribution hearing to address the Coalition, Pfau/Zalkin and Catholic requests to have their bills paid by the BSA has been rescheduled to 3/23: Docket Text: Notice of Hearing /Re-Notice of Motion of the Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice for Entry of an Order Approving the Debtors' Proposed Payment of the Coalition Restructuring Expenses (related document(s)[10808]) Filed by Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice. Hearing scheduled for 3/23/2023 at 10:00 AM at US Bankruptcy Court, 824 Market St., 6th Fl., Courtroom #2, Wilmington, Delaware. Objections due by 1/12/

200 BSA councils going through bankruptcy over a 10 year period while National BSA goes Ch 7 is not going to lead to success.

My understanding is that if BSA files Chapter 7, it is essentially over for survivors, meaning no payouts for anyone. The pension plan would be taken over by the PBGC and hundreds of millions of dollars would be sought by the government. It is also my understnading that the government is first in line for any assets. Finally, since the plan is a single employer plan, every LC could be held liable for the pension underfunded shortfall. A complete disaster for scouting in general if BSA has to file Chapter 7. I'm not an attorney so if someone has better informaiton, please correct me.

Aren't those old geezers handsome! https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/02/15/scouters-in-action-they-saved-the-drowning-man-from-the-rip-current/

I was at $2M, but your $4M caused me to reevaluate this last week. From both a holding and liability standpoint, I hadn't done a review in 5 years or so. I am now too at $4M. It wasn't much more to go from 2-4.

I dont know. At Webelos Woods last November I was carrying a dutch oven back to the trailer in the dark. I tripped over one of those really big rocks that are supposed to keep you from driving into the camp site. I didn't just kind of trip either... I went down, the dutch oven ended up under the middle of the trailer. My lower abdomen was sore for two months, I had a spot on the side of my chest on the right side that hurt just as long. My knees are just down getting to the point where they don't feel swollen all the time and dont hurt when I stand up. So... 3 months to recover from tha