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  1. No one here, except members who are claimants, have any part of deciding anything in this bankruptcy. Let's drop the personal criticism of others who express in a scoutlike way their differing opinions. Thanks, RS @gpurlee@T2Eagle @Eagle1993 @MattR@elitts
    6 points
  2. Fairness. The post that started this discussion asked whether the LC contributions were fair. There's real fair, and then there's bankruptcy court fair. I haven't seen anyone here express an opinion that real fair is achievable. Bankruptcy court fair is a different thing. The court is about money and nothing else. It is cold and emotionless. In a Chapter 11 case, provided the debtor can demonstrate its viability, the court will protect the debtor's right to emerge from bankruptcy and remain in existence. We, as a people, have created a mechanism that allows a debtor to go t
    6 points
  3. As part of Citizenship in the Community MB, Scouts are asked to attend a community meeting and then discuss an issue with the counselor. Maybe these scouts have taken the lessons of citizenship to heart and see an issue that they feel strongly about. Is the issue here that they are in uniform or the issue they have raised? To be honest, I think it is great that they are calling out the county commissioners for not following their own rules and requirements. This is exactly what the engaged citizen should do.
    4 points
  4. As a survivor and one of many victims of the same abuser who carried out his deeds across multiple boy scout troops, what gives the BSA, my LC and CO any right to complain about anything. PERIOD! I did go to the police and my case was turned over to a unit that specializes in the exploitation of children. And when law enforcement came knocking at BSA's and my LC's doors, they were told nothing to see here detectives. Guess what...24 years later I learned through this bankruptcy, BSA and my LC banned my abuser from scouting 11 years prior to me reporting him to law enforcement. So my path
    4 points
  5. Major points that I heard on the TCC townhall. . 1) LCs can pay a LOT more ... 3X current offer and still be fine financially. 2) BSA screwed up with Hartford. Once this deal is rejected, that deal goes away. Hartford risk is >>>>> more than what was committed. 3) This plan sucks 4) 18,000 claims are post YPT implementation. The non financial aspect was watered down in this plan, that will change (focus is on oversight & IV files). 5) LDS offer is too low 6) BSA offer is ok, but only because they hid money all over the place, making it diffic
    3 points
  6. @CynicalScouter If this was not a Scout forum I would be saying very un-Courteous and un-Kind things to you. Anytime someone defends the BSA you take it to you do not want to compensate them at all or you wish to deny them of council. Quit making up garbage! This is the sword play I was referring to, CS. I don’t think it’s benefiting the people you are defending or concerned about here. I have to agree it seems to have gotten emotional and reactionary, missing the forest for the trees. You seem to have a hair trigger lately and I don’t think it’s representative of your intellect
    3 points
  7. I feel like I've entered some kind of alternate reality with some of these comments. Yes, there are examples of places in BSA where it was true to it's own oath and law. However, Boy Scouts in general is not regarded by people outside of it as an example of a tolerant or inclusive organization. Over the years it has generally excluded or segregated people by race, gender, orientation, and religion. It has a history of being behind the curve on almost every important social issue. It allows this by unit to this day when it comes to religion and orientation. It also has a significant current iss
    2 points
  8. As often seems to occur, some post poorly supported historical comments, often having little or no understanding of the evolution of the program over time. As someone noted, much of the past history of Scouting is intwined in the larger societal norms of the time and locations. In the case of Blacks, it became an issue for decades, discussed and bounced around at biennial conferences of Exectutives, and at National offices as early as the early 20th century. That the focus was more on the South at the time is to be expected. Yet, in many instances local councils found ways to work with the
    2 points
  9. I have been a Scout and Scouter for a very long time. I think the common perception is that the organization is made up mostly or right leaning individuals. But I have known many many very left leaning individuals, and it has been a fairly even split. What we held in common, both left and right, was a belief in and adherence to the Scout Oath and Law. I think we are seeing more and more people, both left and right, who are more ready to cast aside the Oath and Law, if it benefits them or they see fit.
    2 points
  10. BSA was only supposed to be apolitical when its membership leaned rightward. As the organization’s demographics evolve, it will naturally be expected to take a greater role in social activism.
    2 points
  11. Per BSA Rules & Regulations Policy Concerning Political Questions The Boy Scouts of America must not, through its governing body or through any of its officers, chartered councils, Scouters, or members, involve Scouting in political matters. However, this must not be interpreted to prevent the teaching of ideals of patriotism and good citizenship as required to fulfill the Boy Scouts of America’s purpose. Faith-based teachings incorporated into the Scouting program by religious chartered organizations in a manner consistent with the Bylaws are not considered political matters. This po
    2 points
  12. Very interesting update during the TCC townhall regarding the vote: Per bankruptcy code, 66% of each claimant class must approve the plan. That means, 66% of the voters must approve the plan (not 66% of 82,000, but 66% of the votes). Now the kicker... BSA LCs & LDS are not in bankruptcy. Therefore, the passing floor will actually be higher. In some cases that is 75% and other cases it is 90%. So, the bare minimum is 66%; however, the court will likely need to see a much higher percent vote for the plan if LCs & LDS (non bankruptcy groups) are included. Thi
    2 points
  13. @CynicalScouter If this was not a Scout forum I would be saying very un-Courteous and un-Kind things to you. Anytime someone defends the BSA you take it to you do not want to compensate them at all or you wish to deny them of council. Quit making up garbage!
    2 points
  14. I disagree. BSA's mistakes, in-action, and deliberate actions, absolutely have responsibility in this predicament, but are the actual abuser not responsible for some of the predicament? You haven’t bothered to study the history. This was a civil conspiracy to conceal the sexual abuse of children that continued for a century. It was child endangerment on an epic scale. The pedophiles are the wild beasts with uncontrollable obsessions. What generations of executives did in keeping it secret from scouts and the public is indefensible.
    2 points
  15. So when claimants attorneys make demands, no matter how large (far beyond the value of the BSA and LCs), they are praised on this forum. When the BSA lawyers do something favorable to the BSA, the BSA - not its lawyers - is castigated. When people criticize the claimant lawyers, they are censored, but, when they slam the slam the BSA for what the lawyers are doing, that is fine. Let us all be fair to all concerned. The proceedings are by attorneys representing what they feel are the best interests of their clients. The results of these proceedings will affect all of us and none of us will
    2 points
  16. Enough to cover your therapy and creat a tangible and stable investment to allow comfort financially without avarice and living above others in moderate middle income families or individuals in the U.S. Added to that, an honest effort by authorities to punish properly the actual perpetrator if still alive, without punishing his descendents unless they could be proven to be involved beyond familial blindness. Monetarily, a half million dollars invested properly will offer a good return indefinitely. Especially if the cost of therapy is not coming out of your pocket or those earnings. I do n
    2 points
  17. Here is Stang on the TCC plan (May 13 Townhall) http://www.pszjlaw.com/assets/htmldocuments/BSA Town Hall Transcript 5-13-21.pdf "I want to just build on that for a moment. Every analysis that we did, which includes a proposed contribution of money and camps to a settlement fund, is premised, first, on that each local council will keep two years of operating money. We know how much it costs to operate your local council, we have all of that financial information. So, we didn’t zero out the bank accounts, two years of operating money and whatever else you raise--or I should say, the l
    2 points
  18. Subpoena by Zalkin served against a variety of councils and COs including churches, schools, Etc. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/02f5f86d-8578-44db-b1e2-ba2559be6308_6549.pdf
    1 point
  19. I think a lot of parents look at youth activities as somewhere to just dump their children. My daughter was a competitive swimmer and her Mom and I spent major amounts of time on pool decks. amazing how many kids were just dropped off in parking lots and at swim meets the same parents complaining that swimming took up to much of their time.
    1 point
  20. The BSA has often lagged behind in terms of cultural change. Segregation isn't really one of them. From 1911 there have been black troops. In some areas BSA predated the military in desegregation. Yes, the South was a tough nut to crack but there were black Troops there as early as 1911. BSA kept forging forward even though segregation was the law in many states in the South. The last article there, is a lawsuit from NAACP to get Boy Scouts of America to force the LDS Church to change its doctrine on who could become priest. I think that lawsuit was dismissed, but I may be wr
    1 point
  21. No, it was not held in common by all. But, enough good people opposed segregation that BSA was pushing for desegregation as early as the 1910's. Fortunately, good people persisted and eventually, segregation was overcome. Hate, Hate, Hate was defeated. But it is clear we still have work to do.
    1 point
  22. Really! The BSA policies was part of the culture then as much as gays and girls are part of the culture now. Using the Oath and Law in a broad brush is a two edge sword. One has to respect the Oath and Law in their personal character to have any integrity for using them to attack whole organizations out of context. Barry
    1 point
  23. I agree 100% scouting has become like the federal and state governments. Why do we need both national and local councils? This is like government in that they have federal agencies and states have the exact same agencies. Ie federal EPA, state EPA. I would say keep LC's but reduce the number to 2-3 per state. Eliminate national and replace it with a board that makes standards. That is all that is really needed is standards. Turn over HAB's to the LC in that area. We could save hundreds of millions yearly with this change. People seem to like semi-local control and this would
    1 point
  24. When I think on this, I can honestly say we don't really need our local council. Everything they provide us could be done (and in most cases, actually already is being provided) through National functions (policy, materials (books and uniforms), standardized training) and local volunteers (local training courses and events). Could anyone else here live without their local council? With the technologies we have now, could they go away without a great deal of impact to Scouting? I think so....and so, BSA toggle?
    1 point
  25. Confession: I’ve never had it. It just went with my “proof of the pudding” and dark prose of the moment. For those who didn’t know what it is, I knew it would be very dramatic. I’m thinking I will really like it because I love all manner of sausage. I’m Austrian and Irish so it’s in my blood.
    1 point
  26. I have to admit it felt good to hear the TCC say so many times that the plan sucks.
    1 point
  27. Your name in the upper right corner of the page --> Account settings --> left hand column --> Signature
    1 point
  28. It means someone spilled a cocktail in the server room Smoke, sparks, general mayhem, weird red x's appearing in the lower right corner, the forum is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions, Old Testament real wrath-of-God type stuff; Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling; Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes…The dead rising from the grave; Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria.
    1 point
  29. @ThenNow My sincere apology for any discomfort as it was not meant to do so. It was certainly not to be demeaning or invalidating. It is time for me to exit this discussion and I will endeavor to do so.
    1 point
  30. I have never heard of silver tabs being described that way. District committee members and CORs are the first group that come to mind. An MBC would be a council or district position if they choose to wear a uniform - thus they would wear silver tabs. Silver tabs are for district or council positions, assigned, commissioned, or volunteered for.
    1 point
  31. The problem with a low ball offer in this situation is the ramifications of what that might mean if it is not accepted. I would like to add this is not in the arena of a car dealership where you can offer 5K for 20K car. The dealer will just tell you to get lost and that is the end of it. Here the low ball will not get rid of the problem.
    1 point
  32. I am going out on a limb and presuming you mean the current settlement offer. I will go further and assume you are not a claimant/victim.
    1 point
  33. This appears, at least to me, similar to the debates over adding girls, gay scouts and gay youth. I generally agree that for the most part, few if any will be swayed either way by the back and forth. Hopefully it can be done in a scoutlike manner so at minimum you have the benefit of learning where each side is coming from. This is a tough debate. There is simply not enough money to go around. BSA even if liquidated including all of its LCs could not come close to what is really needed to pay victims. In addition, many of us want BSA to survive and we know BSA was not in great shape
    1 point
  34. I consider the current scouts secondary indirect victims of BSA’s. bad choices. The judge has said she is considering their interest in seeing scouting survive. But victims don’t just disappear because the organization does good works elsewhere.
    1 point
  35. Then you are the exception. Most councils are offering 14% or LESS of assets. Many are below 10%. The LCs are holding out IN GENERAL. And when this plan blows up and the BSA toggle-plans out the 1600 lawsuits against LCs go live. Then we will see some real dollars for victims. Then LCs will rewlly start to pay. As previously noted: the 40+ councils that make up CA, NY, and Hawaii/Guam have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cases the day BSA leaves bankruptcy. The next day those lawsuits go “live” and about a day after that those 40 councils go into bankruptcy themselves.
    1 point
  36. Exactly. LCs paying out only 4% of assets? Seriously? One good year of a bull market and they will be back to status quo ante.
    1 point
  37. I think that the forum would be quite boring if everyone thought the same way. For the most part I find these discussions to be quite civil.
    1 point
  38. You are misreading me. I don’t do “fair”. I look at market rates for abuse cases. The plan is nowhere near market. I don’t much care what happens to BSA. It is 100% responsible for its predicament. I’m fine with a BSA only plan. But BSA is a dead man walking but if it can start over with some property and operating income I don’t care. My point is that it is now an impediment to survivors getting market rate compensation and I want it to exit stage left.
    1 point
  39. I am also a Tier One claimant with multiple aggravating factors. As far as I can tell, the only variable that remains unknown is whether 5+ or 10+ claims implicate my SM/abuser. I tick all the other boxes. Then, I am technically in a Gray 3 state, but have a strong case around the time-bar defense. Whatever. What is my abuse and the implosion it caused worth. Dunno. According to the Claim Matrix, $2.7M or a tad less due to the one unknown. My deep discontent and vexation is twofold: 1. I do not feel like BSA, especially LCs, are being forthright about their assets. If both BSA and the LCs
    1 point
  40. The difficulty here (at least one difficulty) is that this is a bankruptcy case too. While the victims deserve compensation, and while most of us would agree that numbers currently being floated are not nearly enough nor could they ever, this is a bankruptcy case. This point cannot be lost. It really really sucks that the major debtors are CSA victims and they will not recieve just compensation like most (all?) debtors in bankruptcy cases. It really really sucks that even with complete liquidation the victims will recieve significantly less than what they deserve. Perhaps the victims groups (I
    1 point
  41. Let's let the forum member respond. I think there is enough room for many views regarding this topic.
    1 point
  42. ABSOLUTELY correct and the reason the Coalition accepting The Hartford's lowball deal with the BSA and what I suspect will be more lowball setlements is a complete slap in the face to every Survivor. It's a good deal for ONE group, the attorneys who accepted it.
    1 point
  43. As I understand it, again broadly speaking, but the TCC plan outlined in April/May was Determine OPERATING expenses for 2 years. Determine camps that are highly or mostly utilized in the AREA (that may mean some LCs keep all camps and some next door neighbors will lose a lot) Determine what assets are truly, truly restricted (such as those that are in historic parks or buildings that cannot be sold or liquidated because there is some government or other entity with a superior claim) And whatever is left goes into the Settlement Trust. Thus, just looking at my and oth
    1 point
  44. Fair is LC contribution close to all endowments. Start from scratch with limited camps.
    1 point
  45. First you need to understand that BSA's purpose for entering Bankruptcy was to keep as much of their assets as possible while getting out of the pile of crap they themselves had created. They wanted to get the LC's off the hook along with themselves. That goal has never changed. Put up just enough to make all of this go away. They totally underestimated the number of claimants. Then they cut the first deal with Hartford (which was more than atrocious). They than went to LC's and said hey put up some money I think we can make this turd of an offer shine a little. They were cut of
    1 point
  46. On a personal note, my Troop's summer camp was sold due to this bankruptcy. At the closing ceremony grown men cried as it was the last summer camp closing they would be attending at that camp. I have ashes from that camp fire in my office. So, it is painful in many cases as this is being repeated nationwide. I know many councils seemed to have lack of money going into this bankruptcy. That said, when I see the actual council finances on display, by blood starts to boil. It is clear that many councils sat on huge endowments/investments, claimed they were poor and sold camps. So, to
    1 point
  47. Well, in the beginning, National did start with nothing, and 100± years later built it into what it now has. So, even starting at zero is doable. But, the second time around,, National would have its intellectual property, and a tradition (some of which is laudable), and a shell of a structure, though hugely damaged, and some camp properties with which to carry on the outdoor component of the program. It won't be what is was before the bankruptcy, but what does one expect when they burn down their own house?
    1 point
  48. I can think of three reasons why "no comment" is the best of the bad options. 1) Defend the LC offering on its own merits. "We believe this amount is fair." 2) Defend the LC offering based on survival of BSA: We believe this amount represents the most we can offer while still maintaining scouting for young people today and into the future, which is BSA National's official line (“ongoing efforts to reach a global resolution that will equitably compensate survivors and ensure Scouting’s future by resolving past abuse cases for both the national organization and local councils.”) 3
    1 point
  49. TCC has announced a Town Hall Thursday at 8 EST. https://pszjlaw.zoom.us/j/82272826295 (no registration required) or Phone number: 888- 788-0099 (Toll Free), Webinar ID: 822 7282 6295. At this Town Hall, the TCC will discuss: (1) Solicitation Materials and Voting Ballots and (2) the TCC’s recommendation on how to vote
    1 point
  50. A Den Chief should be setting the example, including proper and complete uniform at all times.
    1 point
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