Leaderboard

Wherever there are adults that can charm insecure youth, which includes all those places you mention above, there is abuse. That mindset is one ingredient to reduce abuse. Just like car safety, look at the FAA. If everyone dies on a plane the first thing they look for is the black box. Learning what exactly happened is another important ingredient. Rather than general, vague rules about safety, very specific rules based on known cases can address specific ways that failures occured. Next, there's an understanding of the paradox that zero failures is the goal and yet there are f

Historically, the BSA added people to the IVF, at least some times, based on just a report that they were talking about starting a Scout unit, not only if they had already been registered. And it also added people to the IVF for conduct that had happened several years before. For example, I remember reading one file about a man who was the wintertime supervisor of the horse-tending program at D bar A Scout Ranch (Michigan) in the early '70s. In the early '80s, the local council got a letter from a now-man who accused him of drinking, drunk driving, giving alcohol to underage boys, and cer

Just for some perspective, the TCC's professional fees were approximately 11% at the time of the Judge's comments. Whether any amount is seen as reasonable or not is up to opinion, the comparison of the TCC's fees to that of the BSA is important to understand.

But this is 100% about BSA. Volunteers under the BSA program took advantage of youth in horrible deviant ways. Those volunteers failed and the youth paid the price. There is do doubt there is sexual abuse in all of our society, but that doesnt excuse the BSA in this particular matter. For now this is about the claims against BSA.

I do not accept "we cannot judge the past norms of the day based on current norms" arguments. Just because many people accepted a behavior at a certain point in history did not make that behavior ok. Yes it is acceptable to judge folks for past behavior "under current norms". It was wrong back in the day even if many accepted it as a "norm". Heck, many (most? all?) who accepted it at the time knew it was wrong at the time.

I don't have any specific ideas at this point. I do think that similar to the various safety agencies there should be specific published reviews that show where things went wrong. We have a fair number of rules in place, and while none of them are unimportant surely some of them are much more critical than others. Looking at Faithful Scouters examples, all are good rules, but how critical are they? Eagle projects with no adults. Easy to argue that adults make the activity safer, but how directly would an Eagle project run by scouts lead to the abuse of a scout by an adult?

For starters, if our Leaders actually followed YPT we would be in a much better position. Youth protection requires two deep leadership. I've seen Eagle car washes and project days with NO adult leadership. Our District is aware but they don't say anything. No one on one contact with Scouts. I've seen leaders give Scouts rides home in their car ALONE. Leaders are not supposed to drink alcohol on trips. They do, and in fact I know a Leader with a DWI who still drinks on camping trips. All written communication from a Scout should have another adult copied. A lot of

Actually, that is a portion of my comment and not the whole comment. Regardless, my intent in positing was, and is, to share information so that people can make informed decisions. Here is the claim information by year as shared by the TCC at http://www.pszjlaw.com/assets/htmldocuments/BSA Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims 003.pdf People can view it, remember that most victims do not come forward until well into their 40's or later, remember that the court has appointed a "Future Claims Representative" to deal with such victims, and decide for themselves whether the BSA is a "Leader" in youth

BSA is different by nature of what we do with kids and when and where we do it. I think you have to recognize that and understand it as a risk specific to scouting before you can make any headway with understanding why YP is such an issue. There is no huge issue in 4-H. There are very few cases reported involving 4-H leaders. No one's hiding them, they just haven't been reported. I'm sure there are some random adults attached to some random clubs that abused kids, but it's not occurring in the 4-H setting to the degree it does in scouting.

This is incorrect. The training used today is new (~3 years old). Yes, that was when 2 deep leadership and no one on one contact started but BSA has been making various updates since. There was also changes to the background check process recently. This has been an evolving area for BSA and most youth organizations. Claiming there was a hard line in 1990 and no changes since is false.

I encourage you to become informed. Over 11,000 people have submitted claims for the years following 1990 when many of the Youth Protection Training protocols used today were enacted. If that alone isn't a "poor light" that has nothing to do with plaintiff attorneys then I don't know what is. Consider as well that it is wisely accepted that most victims do not come forward until after they are 40, and that the 11,000 claims are INDIVIDUAL claims that include MULTIPLE acts. Clearly, the days when the BSA could be considered a "leader" in youth protection have ended.

I recall an incident decades ago, where a middle school boy went home and told his father that his P.E. teacher made him go into a closet and take his clothes off. Naturally, the school received a very angry phone call the next day. I was asked by the school administration if I could verify if this had actually happened, as I was present in the locker room at the time. Indeed I could. The actual fact was that this was a student who did not feel like participating that day, so he just happened to 'forget' his uniform. The 'closet' in question was a 10' x 10' room with shelves full of u

It's not that any organization is special, it's that scouting creates specific and unique risks. I don't know if you noticed but one of those 4-H reports is from 2007 and the other is not about sexual abuse at all, it's about a bunch of teenage counselors running their own fight club. There are not a plethora of 4-H reports. BSA should be expected to have the gold standard YP program because it is the only youth organization that at least monthly has unrelated adults take unrelated kids off to remote locations without cameras or any other kind of public supervision for lengthy, overnight

Yes, but when we are talking about 600 claims, skinny dipping and strip poker doesn't rate up their with some of the monstrous stuff being talked about. Barry

Maybe, in today's atmosphere. Things once considered just normal life's activity today often draw strange responses, especially when they get brought up in a multigenerational interaction. Kind of like the idea that somehow we survived some possibly bad ideas such as riding in the back of trucks with little or nothing to keep us in place. Or, as foolish dare devils jumping off of high places into unknown water, or drag racing. I find myself wondering how I ever made it out of childhood with not bike helmet, no seat belts, no required life jackets for poor or non swimmers, or even just play

I agree about variability in moral code. In Momma's frame of reference, what are now called micro-regressions wouldn't count for much. I had no business doling them out. (A bar of soap would be waiting for my foul mouth.) But, I'd better be prepared to endure them. She would call parents of a kid to let them know what they did to set me running home crying, but she would turn to me and say, "You've got to get big." It was an old-country way of thinking that she didn't call on often. But she applied it here. YP has increased the level of adult-to-adult accountability. That's a plu

I was involved in making sure “abuse involving other children” was part of the definition and categories on the claim form. It means there is and adult abuser creating the context for children to engage in sexual activity with each other, as defined.

I continue to have an issue with the use of the "broad brush" that puts ALL of us in the same basket, even though most of us would have had no idea about what was happening, especially in some other state or location. YES, there were huge judgement errors made and maybe even a few purposefully. But that should not brand the majority, in this case the very large majority of adults and, yes, some scouts, as responsible for it all. I suspect if you were to delve into many councils and units going back decades, and found those "in the know" you might find how many of the "bad actors" actually w

Thanks, that does help a lot. Still, I heard discussions of sex from scout filled tents late in the night that could be construed in that list. I'm not sure I'm completely over my dads talk of the birds and the bees. I wonder how many of these claims are acts from other scouts. Barry

I have far too many points, because the problem is far bigger than the BSA. The bitter truth, Americans, is no matter where you go, there you are. Deconstruct every organization that one or two predators may infiltrate, and thousands will flourish given this nation's nuclear family structure. The manuals on how to do this are encoded in some of the vilest American literature and pop culture. Read that literature, find the family beleaguered by life who "needs a friend", whose kids aren't doing much with others, infiltrate. There is no patriarch or matriarch monitoring whose spending too much t

In our spring recruiting drive, I had a number of conversations with prospective parents who wanted to understand why their son would be safe in our Troop. My response was strict adherence to our rules. Expectations of rigid adherence have to start at the top, with no exceptions allowed. There is simply no reason for an adult to ever be alone with a scout. Period. In 4 years, I have only experienced one instance in which was an issue, in which a mom/adult leader, in response a new scout asking to be shown to a water fountain on a floor above our meeting room, was going to escort him

To me, all of these should be reported. Reporting shouldn't be reserved for actual crimes, it should be any violation. In EHS, we are expected to report "near misses". Those are then used to improve training & processes. The written communications is a great one. So many times, I receive an email from a scout directly to me with no one on the CC. I immediately respond to that scout + parent + leader and remind them to never email me without an adult. We use Troop Track as it automatically includes parents on all emails (so this only happens when they email me from their personal

Thanks for the topic. I think it's good to focus outside the clutter of the main thread. Have you discussed this with anyone in the organization or outside? It's a very intriguing idea. I also think improving YPT, specifically, will require adding survivors to some element of the training and education. No one can speak to it like we can. They would have to be selected carefully and the context of their input thoughtfully crafted, but it would be powerful imho.

I think in terms of the bankruptcy settlement, a long lasting legacy that is appropriate given the large number of victims, is for the insurance companies involved to agree to fund an independent agency like the IIHS but for youth protection. This could improve safety not only at BSA but all youth serving organizations. (Note: if you would want to discuss what BSA can do to improve youth protection, that could be in the linked topic above.)

I just started a new topic about ideas to improve safety. To me, outside of the camp property loss, is the other major outcome to expect from the bankruptcy.

Your post stated "Youth Protection Training protocols used today were enacted" which is what I quoted. I did not re-word a post. We use different protocols today than in 1990. If you stated "when no one on one youth and adult contact started" I would agree. Youth Protection Training protocols are far beyond no one on one contact and two deep leadership. For instance, BSA only recently decided that 18 year olds are not considered adults in terms of Youth Protection Training.

Please don't re-word a post. At no point did the statement include "no changes since." The year 1990 was used to correspond with the "new version" of YPT. See "https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/youth-protection/100-years-of-enhancing-efforts-to-protect-youth

You have got to be kidding. There are so many things wrong with this. Let me start with the most obvious. Most of the scouts from 1910 are dead. They can't report any abuse. They just can't.

I pretty much trust our leaders in my town, Pack and Troop. I know everyone pretty well. That being said, once my kid leaves town to another camp someplace be it in Council or maybe somewhere else. No, I can't say even with YPT that I trust those adults. My kid won't be going anywhere that I am not there. Now... I was never sexually abused as a Scout. The few trips I did go on with the Troop were less than safe though. Since I was one of the new kids in the Troop, the adults in their infinite wisdom apparently thought it was ok I didn't have a seat in the van. On at least tw

I honestly don’t think that will be the trade off anymore. I used to think giving up an HA base may save a local council camp... but I doubt that is true. If BSA can prove it’s a restricted asset they should keep it. If it isn’t restricted then it should go to the trust.

Since when do men and women of character offload responsibility to some government entity? What is scouting about if it isn't about seeing, knowing, and doing the right thing? I am growing impatient with this idea that it is never our fault because it was someone else's responsibility to tell us what to do. We ran the organization. We oversaw the kids. We knew what was happening. It was our job to keep them safe. We failed.

Agreed. It's unfortunate to lose the HA bases, but if that's a price to keep council camps, then it should be paid. Plenty of wonderful state and national parks and forests to do HA trips in.

Please inform the CDC that what they are now recommending to prevent abuse in youth organizations is an incompetent effort. It would seem that the BSA was decades ahead of the times. It seems to me that the problem is with the manner in which the legal system handles such things.

Moderator note: Be Kind. A quickly read post can be misread as offensive just as surely that a quickly written post can be miswritten as offensive. Be Courteous. Pause and calm, and then try a slower second read. If you still feel offended, reply "I'm not sure I understood your post, could you further explain?" RS @MattR @John-in-KC

Sadly, the IV files represented a best effort and a huge legal liability. So the legal risk almost dictates not maintaining those files. That happens in other industries too. Best current example are corporations that force relatively short email retention periods as standard policy that is hard to circumvent. I don't agree on BSA losing it's soul. The numbers are huge, but so is youth membership. I suspect BSAs numbers are parallel to other youth serving organizations.

I can see that. Professors promoting hate and bigotry by accusing other groups as hateful.

I think we're talking two sides of the same coin: The first two components are not specific. All humans are about "befriending and establishing an emotional connection", and sometimes that's "with a child". So, let's rephrase those to say: deploying normal human behavior so as "to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse." That definition remains problematic, because unless the perpetrator makes some declaration as to his/her intent, there is no way to use it without being Time Cop. The few pedophiles who I wish I had never met did not have objectives of sexual abu

As a practical matter, this lies on a continuum. For example, the old Italian man who gave infant Son #1 a dollar while we were walking down the street was not grooming. When I cover the cost of the coffee for the young person fiddling with his/her change, it's not grooming. I'm just trying to make both of our days a little brighter by passing that dollar from long ago along. It's a Mediterranean thing. Same act(s), different person, vile motive, hideous outcome. That's grooming. In other words in a person who has never committed abuse, one only can determine what is and isn't g

Same behaviors exist in many organizations. Sports. Church youth groups. And in 4-H. Maybe 4-H is truly special. I'm not a 4-H expert. But then again, you can find incidents as you indicated earlier. https://www.deseret.com/2007/7/4/20028174/4-h-leader-in-tooele-is-charged-with-child-sex-abuse https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abuse-charged-at-4-h-summer-camp/ I am creeped out with several 4-H YP postings that emphasize volunteers are not mandatory reporters ... in their area. States are inconsistent with rules. I'm just surprised 4-H did not say all 4-H volunteers will a

Great post, but this one line sticks to me as the major problem. This generation does not agree as a community of moral behavior. Nobody in our neighborhood would dare bring up sexuality, much less abuses, because political correctness has confuse common sense morality. My neighbor who has two young boys quit talking to us when they found we voted for other guy in the presidential election. The neighbors across the street are nice folks as far as we can tell, but they obviously live a different lifestyle, and keep to themselves. There is no doubt to me that young folks today are confused about