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Scouting was never intended to be family oriented. Scouting was intended to allow youth to develop themselves on their own. It was designed to replace the gangs of Victorian and Edwardian England, and give them a direction and purpose that would make them better citizens. I have seen first hand what can happen with "family Scouting." It is not pretty, and Scouts will leave. They will get fed up by the constant parental interruptions at meetings and on camp outs. They will get fed up with the parents overruling their decisions on their program. They will get fed up with parents allowing th

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It's hard to decide where and how to jump back in to the discussion after the big slow. I think it's still better for everyone, especially the majority of claimants if some universal settlement is achieved. If settlement talks collapse, that really shuts out claimants from any state other than the current states with revival or extended SOL periods, which I believe is somewhere between six and twelves states depending on how you count things. Within those states, filing suits against the LCs will probably lead to bankruptcy proceedings for just about every council. It's true that f

IMO, the Eagle brand took a huge hit a long time ago for a variety of reasons. PC culture in elite colleges appeared to be using it as a strike against instead of for the applicants. Standards seemed to be lowered in merit badges, projects, etc. in order to increase the success rate. I personally would still be inclined to give an Eagle Scout the chance to prove him/herself to me even with otherwise marginal qualifications but that's just me and it's honestly a bit of sentiment. Outside forces have been attacking and attempting to dismember Scouting for their own reasons but I felt

This is off topic, but perhaps someone would give me a brief recap. I received my Eagle in 1975. It was not easy and there weren't many of us, or so it seemed. In the past 15+ (?) years has there been an escalation of "win the prize" orientation, driven by Units and parents? I had no particular push or encouragement from my parents, though our SM was keen to have his "first Eagle." As I said back there somewhere, it seems like it's become part of the, "Thou shalt build the college resume at all cost!" culture to me. I both understand and marginally despise it.

Sorry about that folks... we had some gremlins running wild in the server... should be resolved, and I will try to monitor more closely!

I would think most councils knew in 2018 of the financial peril of BSA. It was documented in their annual report. https://scoutingwire.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2017-Annual-Report-Combined-FINAL-App-Version.pdf

Many kids do. Have you ever seen the Race to Nowhere documentary? Pretty tragic but it is the reality and is part of what is driving the push to Eagle at all costs in some regions.

I don't think most parents view it that way. For most who are pointing towards a better college, it's an "And?" credential. Meaning, "So, you're 4.0 and you're a National Merit Scholar and you're an elite athlete and you're president of XYZ and you've gotten 5s on al your AP exams and you volunteer for Unified and you're an Eagle Scout... and?"

I earned my Eagle Scout in 2008, and I do get the impression now that the trail has been broadened somewhat from what it once was. That's not to say it's easier, per se - it's more that I think there were more resources in place when I went through the program than there probably were in the 1970s. More adults had a better understanding of the advancement process, I think - and that made the trail a little easier to follow. It's not as though the requirements are all that different today then they were then. I still had to do nearly all of the same stuff as would have been required in

I think it's really important to distinguish between the two types of LCs, those in the revival states and those not. Those in the revival states know that at a minimum their non restricted assets are gone. A settlement that involves monies from the other LCs might save some camps and allow the downsizing to be rational. For those in the non revival states it's a lot more complicated. There are several hundred claims attributable to my council (I forget the exact number), but my understanding is none of them are current, and for what may be within the current SOL we're insured and ha

My mistake, that article confused me because it said the district court and the court of appeals both overturned the Bankruptcy court.

Just for gee whiz, I was selecting between two schools of note. One highly valued Eagle. The other, even decades ago, quite the opposite. I had to steer around it with the second one. First was a private school, the second a state school.

I resigned from the Alumni Interview program in 2018, maybe 2017, due to increasingly regressive "woke" statements from the university in general and the Admissions Office in particular. I didn't just talk with interviewers, I was an interviewer and listened to the Admissions Office and looked at the matriculation rates of the applicants I personally interviewed. If youth are looking at the program as I did, as a path to gaining experiences, skills, and self-confidence, they should by all means continue with it or whatever program succeeds it. My point is that the value of the Eagle bra

When did you quit? I'm talking now, not 2014 and prior. I would agree that during Dale it probably got rough. My ASM was clear when we discussed this recently .. it helps. He has talked with Harvard, Yale interviewers ... it helps. Notre Dame ... helps. We have had Eagle Scouts do well at Ivy through mid tier colleges. We have examples. That said, it won't help if you can't answer questions. He has said it show perseverance and achievement of a goal. I think parents make the mistake thinking their son/daughter just needs to get Eagle Scout on the resume and they're golden.

I don't think GS/USA would be interested. They seem like big numbers to us, but in comparison to GS/USA's membership, a tiny fraction are trying to earn Eagle to the exclusion of Gold. I also can't see any Trailmen wishing to rebrand their Freedom award (which demands a couple of competencies that Eagle does not). It's hard to see how any youth organization would like to purchase rights to use that name in their program. However, I can see some value to someone who holds trademarks as royalties. Any artist who uses "Eagle scout" in their work could be sent a cease-and-desist letter u

I've been to camp Rota-Kiwan exactly once. My oldest son and I used it as a starting-point for a 13.5-mile hike (largely over roads, but we did go through the "Au Sable Land Bridge" next door) while my wife and daughter attended a Cub Scout activity at the camp. I'm not happy that the Council was selling any of its camps, but there was some logic for this one, and I'm glad to hear about the buyer they did find and the conservation easement that will be on the property. The camp was smaller, not really big enough to run a full summer-camp program or a big event for another youth organizat

The problem is ... a single case can result in a very large verdict. For example, the 2010 Oregon case of a $18.5M verdict for 1 case is a warning. https://abcnews.go.com/WN/boy-scouts-pay-man-185m-punitive-damages/story?id=10463429 Most councils could face 10s if not hundreds of cases. I doubt they can handle the legal fees let alone 1 or 2 losses of this magnitude.

I don't actually doubt the severity of many of the claims, or that there were cases of negligence. Where my doubt really comes into play when it comes to actually prosecuting lawsuits, is in the area of direct liability. If an abuser had been accused and the BSA failed to act, I think there should be liability. If the BSA admitted a known abuser due to negligence (as opposed to being deceived), I think there is liability. But I don't think that the simple fact of a pedophile (who hasn't been caught) being a registered scouter means the BSA should be held liable for the rapists actions.

personal story ... sadly ... LOL ... I recently had a rather hard headed discussion with my youngest son where I emphasized I did not view a C as something to be proud of. ... I might have said that "C" reflected he attended, was breathing and awake, but it did not reflected that he learned anything. ... It's not that I was that upset about the grade itself. I was upset that he was holding up the C as if it's something he should be proud of. He's in school. I expect him to invest effort to learn. If he invests effort, he should be able to get at least a B. C is a good indication he

They included sexual harassment in the definition, and with as broadly as some folks think that extends, it becomes easier to imagine. It's much like the whole 1:4 women will be sexually assaulted statistic. (they included stuff like any kind of kiss without consent as a sexual assault)

The intellectual property is owned by National, but what makes you think they don't have full control over it the way any other entity would; including the right to license it? I will grant you that if the organization goes away, there would no longer be anyone to do ongoing licensing, but that doesn't mean they couldn't make it all "public use", or license it to the WOSM, in perpetuity and have that hold up past their liquidation. And yes, I realize without an agreement the LCs and COs aren't covered. Ideally I'd like to see a settlement that leaves BSA intact and functional even if s

In the midst of it all, I found this interesting. https://www.lanereport.com/139744/2021/03/nky-boy-scouts-chapter-lands-1-million-for-eagle-lodge/

I don't see the point. If this is the end for BSA, just let it end. Don't try to change it into something it's not intended to be. Don't turn it into a family camping organization. We already have family friendly campgrounds. I know the execs will disagree. To them, scouting is a meal ticket. They don't want the gravy train to stop rolling regardless of how much they have to adulterate the program to keep it going.

In 1965 at Ohio Sate, the History Department had a rule that you never met with a student aalone in your office without a rubber door stop wedging the door open. We were issued red rubber door stops.

True story. I had a student, about 10 years ago, whose parent appealed the kid's failing grade in my class. He stated that they had a "family rule" against having their kids come in for extra help from teachers. Said it was for safety purposes. He felt that the school should not "punish" his kid for abiding by this family rule. Since the student might have improved his grade had he been able to get some extra help, the father asked that his son be given a passing grade. He pointed out the fact that other students in his son's class, who did come in for extra help, had improved thei

I think... take it for what you will. 1) National and LCs pushed the narrative so hard that this was a problem that would ONLY affect National because LCs are their own thing. They can't turn around now and say... Well, uhhh, that wasnt completely accurate. Maybe taking such a hard stance on that position wasn't a good idea. It seems like more and more that is up to the Judge and not how BSA wants it to be. 2) National and LCs put themselves in a stupid position with above and even now continue to blow sunshine where the sun doesnt typically shine. The continue pushing the na

In the most famous case against Satan, he had no lawyer of record. The case was dismissed by the District Court on its own motion for lack of personal jurisdiction over Satan because the record showed no service of process on Satan or the other defendants, his "Staff." United States ex rel. Gerald Mayo v. Satan and His Staff, 54 F.R.D. 282 (W.D.Pa. 1971).

So ... I'm guessing the intense mediation session this week is not likely resolving the differences.

News release: Dateline April 1, 2021, Irving Texas.... The Boy Scouts of America in line with the ongoing simplification and re-organization announced the following Merit Badges would be merged, thus allowing the Scout to earn them easier and quicker: Pet care and Cooking. American Labor and Mining in Society. Family Life and Animal Science. Welding and Fire Safety.

Because of the confidential nature of mediation there should be little news of the proceedings the next three days. The TCC will be holding its April Town Hall on Thursday April 8th. I suspect there will be some discussion then to the extent possible. Remember, mediation has been on-going and will be continuing so while the next three days are more "intensive" they aren't the start or end of the process and confidentiality rules will continue. Town hall starts at 8PM on the 8th. Link is https://pszjlaw.zoom.us/j/84324072960   TCCBSA.COM for links to past meeting recordings.

Strange, the CDC is now recommending exactly what the BSA did in creating the Ineligible Volunteers File created about 100 years ago. So volunteer XYZ suddenly is no longer coming to the unit meeting and it is published that someone was removed. People link the two together. XYZ actually had health issues and then sues. That is not the way. A Clery style report, maybe end of the year that is available makes sense.

That's where the judge should come in and focus the action where it would be most beneficial to society. We had a guy sue our county in Indiana about 25 years ago over the condition of the jail. The judge ordered the county to spend the money to build a new jail. Far more beneficial to the greater number of people than giving one person a bunch of money. It would be more beneficial to require BSA to spend the money to conduct better background checks.

CS, if it makes you feel better then they were told that they will leave Scouting forever, that they are banned from all Scouting for life, and that they cannot participate in our council or any other council or any unit. That is what they were told - it was definite and clear. Since people are removing from Scouting for YP violation accusations, it is not reported outside a very small group at the council. It is not right to create a bad reputation for someone if it did not rise to the level of a crime. So volunteers likely are not aware of people removed from Scouting. I have be

I too have talked with people at all levels including the professionals who created the current YPT and some of the actual national experts and that is not their attitude. They believe that it is good but are looking for anything to make it better.

Beyond the kind of program killing requirements like "every group of scouts must be monitored at all times by 2 adults", zero tolerance policies are the only thing I'm actually concerned about, particularly in the area of "no one on one contact". While I certainly don't mind zero tolerance with regard to violations along the lines of "that adult took a scout off into the woods" or something, it's just TOO easy to briefly run afoul the no one-on-one contact rule when dealing with kids when you are doing something either with or near a scout, only to realize that all the other scouts that were

On these forums, I always accept fellow Scouters as trustworthy until shown to be otherwise. So in that vein, you have paid a terrible price for something forced upon you. For that, I have sympathy. You family will have suffered from your scars. That is not fair. Unfortunately, there is no real fairness. To me, fairness would be to see all the perpetrators in prison for their crime, some monetary compensation for their pain and suffering from the perpetrators and enablers (which could be the BSA), and counseling that helps them to put this into the past. The fair thing to current S

You are correct in saying that the current youth did not build the camps. My guess is that few of the abusers built the camps either though there are no doubt high profile exceptions. Essentially none are 'paying for it' as most are dead or elderly and not involved with the program. It will not come from the pockets of volunteers except from those of us who will try to rebuild Scouting after it is devastated. The life changing experiences might not occur without camps as often.

We totally agree that they don't care, that is not what I am arguing. My argument is that they believe that the LCs have assets of $1.3 - 3.3 B which is greater than what they will get from the BSA plus LCs (~$1.2 - 1.5 B) and they can attack the COs on top of that. Certainly the former is quicker than the latter. The other factor is that Kosnoff says that his firm represents ~80% of the claimants. The latter approach better satisfies his desires. I would expect that he will encourage his clients to vote against anything other than liquidation. So it is my belief that the TCC fav

At least three of the four properties are known to provide life changing experiences [Philmont, Northern Tier, and Sea Base] while the fourth has not been in existence long enough establish that the experience is life changing. Certainly, the recent World Scout Jamboree was life changing for the attendees. Nothing is truly priceless. If the Louvre decided to sell the Mona Lisa, it would be purchased at some price. Being called priceless means that it would require a very dire situation for such a thing to even be considered. The high adventure bases (HAB) of the BSA are priceless

I had to be very careful not to misplace anything on a campout or a scout would gleefully pounce on it and scurry back to his patrol where he would be greeted with great rejoicing. Then usually at dinner I would be approached by the PL saying " Mr. Old scout, I believe we have something of yours that requires a song.". Naturally the whole troop having been clandestinely informed this was coming would be dropping whatever they were doing to watch me sing I'm a Little Teapot. There was of course one adult who told me that I shouldn't do such things or the boys wouldn't respect me. He se

Welcome to the forum, @SilverPalm. I made my scouts dance for lost items. Honestly, I got tired of picking up their stuff all the time. But, whenever a shy scout had to dance it was known among all of the older scouts to dance along with him. It worked. Soon the shy scouts realized it was nothing to be afraid of. A couple of times I had to dance as well. The scouts loved that. It all depends on the attitude, not the task at hand.

Here is an Excel plot (with no alterations except to add the title so I cannot be accused of manipulating the graph) of the last 30 years of claims that the TCC was discussing as being so terrible. Certainly, any occurrence of child abuse is too many but the trend is certainly dramatically decreasing. There have been over 2 million members during most of the time of this graph and those members were not static so that every year some join while others leave. Since I do not have actual tenure information, let us assume that the membership turns over every ten years (it is more frequent than

Associated Press in 2017 found that in the previous four years, there were 17,000 sports victims ... without lawyers soliciting on TV ... often called inappropriate contact ... minimized by coaches ... mandatory reporting often not followed. Four years of sports with almost twice as many vs 30 years with BSA. So then church youth programs? School? Music and theater programs? Obviously BSA is not perfect. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing it's blind to think BSA sits alone.

I suspect you are right for a subset, though certainly not all of them — for the same reasons others have already talked about in this thread: the narrative at the District or Council level that this was only about National, that local scouting wouldn’t be affected, etc. That was certainly what we heard at the FOS presentation right after the bankruptcy was filed. Of people I spoke with that had other daughters in Scouting, this wasn’t a topic that came up frequently or where I heard much concern when it did, I think taking what we were being told pretty much at face value. While I didn

That is their side of the argument. You keep acting like there is nothing to be decided. Have you ever seen a court proceeding? Each side makes an argument for the moon. In the end, few get all.

There is a big difference between youth sports and scouting. If a private baseball program gets wiped off the map, the YMCA or Park District can fill the void. Baseball is not uniquely tied to just one organization. The boys will still get to play baseball. Many people feel that BSA is unique and irreplaceable. Wipe out BSA, and scouting is gone forever. I disagree, but I know many people feel that way. No matter what happens, I don't think WOSM is going to let go of the American market.

So, let us all agree that any abuse, sexual or other, is not acceptable. Now, based on the numbers presented, what is the real world likelihood that a youth might be abused, no matter what barriers may be in place? Taking your 11,000 figure over 30 years, what is the percentage of cases based on total youth membership in that thirty years. Very, very low. Yes, even one is too many, but we live in a real world. Please explain to me how are we ever going to make that number zero? How responsible is the secondary overseer when the actual perpetrator purposely avoids the barriers? Do any of

Regarding a few things. Regarding G2SS, they used Department of Labor Laws to create some of the rules, i.e. the no little red wagons, no power tools, etc at certain ages. I questioned that, brought it to my SE's attention, and he got clarification for me. Regarding the BSA's expulsion letters, I have read a few, had to enforce one, and sadly contribute to one.They are direct and to the point, membership revoked, and you are no longer allowed at BSA activities. Again I had to enforce that letter one time, only to find out the guy had a court ordered injunction against the expulsion