Leaderboard

In order for BSA to demonstrate that two thirds of its assets are restricted and unavailable to creditors they would need to have been incredibly disciplined in their accounting and bookkeeping over the past century to make sure there was no comingling of the various funds and properties. This is not a habit of mind that I've seen them exhibit in any other sphere of their behavior. I have always thought that one of their weaknesses of BSA as an organization is that virtually everyone in the organization has come up through the ranks and so there is little opportunity for new ideas or dis

@Kamala ... You can't find it in the Guide To Advancement because it's not a rule. It's troop folklore and what others leaders have traditionally seen. I myself do not like the idea of needing to use court of honor service as "service hours". ... BUT ... there is no official rule saying outside of scouting. BSA rank requirements are written to be precise to interpret. If the words are not there, it's not part of the requirement. Examples: Since joining scouting Do not include Before you start When the words are not there, it's not part of the requirements. Ot

There was a LOT of legal argument over this, including trying to sue Pope Francis, but the short version is this: 1) Dioceses are both INDEPENDENT and AUTONOMOUS from the Vatican. 2) Dioceses are both INDEPENDENT and AUTONOMOUS from each other. 3) Even if you are able to jump over hurdle #1, the Vatican, as a separate international entity and government, is not touchable for any of this either due to international law in general or the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act in particular. So, each Diocese was out there, on its own. In some ways it looks like BSA but for one

I have a vague recollection about this somewhere in my little brain. In those cases, an individual Diocese effectively equates to BSA National in this case. The RCC suits aren't against the local churches, though many are named I believe, because they don't have the big dollar assets. The local churches are more like Troops/Units. I don't believe there is a "RCC of the USA" or otherwise, in terms of a legal entity. The Vatican is a sovereign state and not reachable.

A lot of this has to be Covid impact, correct? Are the 2020 numbers late 2020 or January 2020. If they are January 2020 we are in SERIOUS trouble. If late 2020, I think it will bounce back. My other question is strategy going forward. We have a lot of small units in my area. All of us struggle to get enough volunteers. Is it time for BSA councils to look through their unit lists and work with unit leaders on a consolidation plan? I am Scoutmaster for a Troop, CC and Den leader for a Pack. I cannot and do not do all 3 of these well and my primary focus is as SM. However, I ca

Hey, I recall a court case that could shed light on are councils independent or not. I know the Girl Scout model is very different at times, but it is close. About 15 years ago, the GSUSA decided to stop the crazy ad hoc mergers and go from 250 to 110 councils (I don't recall the numbers). So, they announced the plans and started to merge. They had the same reasons as the BSA - lower enrollment, high camp costs, etc. All of their councils rolled over and agreed, except for at least one. They sued and said they were independent. GSUSA lost the court case that ensued and then ended up with 111.

I know of one, The Waite and Genevieve Phillips Foundation https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/839320_1093.pdf

IMHO, the TCC's points on page 19 of Docket 1913 should be resolved before the "Revised Plan" hearing.

Given the BSA's assertion that the properties/assets are restricted and the TCC's exasperation over not receiving timely documentation which fueled the need to file the lawsuit, I say the restrictions are legal fictions. They look legit, but back to my previous quip: they are a ride with a V12 badge on the side but a Volt e-engine. If these were ironclad and locked down, why wouldn't they have handed them over pronto? I could be 100% wrong, but if that were the case, this tap dancing pee-pee dance wouldn't have been necessary. The TCC has given them more time to figure out how they're gonna sp

Wed 3/4/2021: The Torts Claimants Committee (TCC) has agreed to give the BSA more time to respond to a lawsuit challenging BSA's claims that several hundred millions dollars of its assets are unavailable for creditors. The TCC filed a complaint in January (filed 1/8/2021) challenging BSA’s assertion that two-thirds of its listed $1 billion in assets, more than $667 million, are “restricted assets” that are unavailable to compensate abuse victims or other creditors. Attorneys submitted a court filing Wednesday, the deadline for BSA to respond to the complaint, indicating th

A funny anecdote: we've been buried in snow here in NJ for a while. We still can't meet indoors, so we'd planned on holding our latest COH at an outdoor amphitheater. A few days before the COH, with the area still buried in snow, the SM called on the scouts to come help shovel the snow away from the benches and stage, and clear a couple paths to get into the area. A bunch of scouts showed up and did the clearing. The amphitheater is next to a nature museum, and the director of some of the children's programs there, when she found the area cleared, told our SM that with the area cleared

BSA is being generous IMHO. I would give them nothing since they deliberately called themselves Scouts and not Guides to piggyback on BSA.

It's in the Annual Report, well, the Treasurers Report. Here's the report from 2017 (the most recent one I could find) https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Treasurers-Report-2017-Final.pdf. If you read down to the Contingencies section on Page 22 you'll find this:

I believe consolidating Units would be the way to go, however our DEs are evaluated on the number of Units in their District, so they will always consider quantity over quality. Many people are also sentimental about their Charter Org. and their history and would rather exist with fewer members and less support before they would merge or join another Unit. In my neighborhood alone three Packs have folded and a fourth is hanging on, mostly because they just celebrated their 60th anniversary. Getting volunteers has become so difficult that place holder names are being used in order to recharte

So the triggering event for all the assets to vest in National is the end of the current charter if it's not renewed. Upon termination of a local council charter or dissolution of a council, all rights of management and ownership of local council property shall become vested in the National Council for use in accordance with the Rules and Regulations of the Corporation. Assume your LC's charter expires 3/31/21. If your local council doesn't renew than 3/31/21 is the "termination of the local council charter" and that's the day "ownership of local council property [becomes] vested i

Usually this is what happens but this happens to be for 7 scouts. Thank you all for your suggestions, sources of information and insight. I really appreciate and I think I have enough information now.

I've been to many ECOHs over the years. My strong preference is to tack the Eagle recognition at the end of a normal COH. It creates a strong connection between the scout's accomplishment and the troop. Sets a great example. If it's separate, it's not really a "troop function" and attendance is always poor. Having ECOH in the normal COH, it's very well attended and adds to the celebration. But then again, the Eagle portion is five/ten minutes not sixty minutes. Parent involvement / stress is much reduced as the main challenge is to invite friends and family. If parents ask

I live in Ohio. For something like the VRA to pass would take a massive change in the political landscape. Just a few years ago we tightened SOL rules for even basic contract cases. For a state like Texas the shift would have to be even larger. The incentive to pay to settle, and I know my council anticipates that as a very real possibility, is that the current situation is bad for everyone, it's always worth some money to reduce uncertainty and this could act as an insurance policy against VRA laws, keeping your own assets at the cost of BSA going down in flames is pennywise pound foo

LIMA — The national Boy Scouts of America might be facing tough financial decisions in the coming weeks. That doesn’t mean the local organization, the Black Swamp Area Council, is in trouble, though. Sherri Garner Brumbaugh, council president for the Black Swamp Area Council, and Marc Kogan, scout executive, sent a letter out Friday afternoon to ease donors’ concerns about the strength of the local scouting organization. “Charitable support of the Black Swamp Area Council stays local,” according to the letter. “All assets of the Black Swamp Area Council, including past and future cha

The control of local councils is very complicated. As far as i can tell if it went all the way to trial it would be a "matter of first impression" meaning it's the first time that particular interpretation of the law came before a court. The councils are unquestionably independently owned and operated corporations that exist as entities established within each state's laws governing corporations. They have their own boards, corporate by laws, legal obligations, etc. The reversionary interest national has in the councils' properties comes from their ability to confer or revoke charters.

Yeah. What he said. (I already loosened the lid, he just took it off...)

Agreed - will be interesting to see what the judge says. Without going too far into a tangent, there are two other factors of why this is so muddled: 1) People tend to look at the actions of the employees and not the board. The professionals are structed in a high autocratic model. As such, the culture is one that drives employees to follow the instructions of the Scout Executive. The SE's career path is dictated by national. This drives a lot of uniformity in the professional ranks. The board, on the other hand, is more independent. 2) It's a non-profit

The timetable for any federal judicial decision is "when the judge or panel of judges is darn good and ready." Not one moment before. Not one moment after.

I upvoted this yesterday, but came back to it to add a comment. I agree - mostly. Service can be evaluated as part of Scout Spirit, and could be folded into the SM Conference. At the same time, having specifics laid out helps in a couple ways. Some SMs may not be comfortable telling a scout he doesn’t think they have earned their next rank due to something that would be subjective. What constitutes enough service? It also gives a scout a concrete goal that he/she can plan for. Particularly helpful as they get older and may have a lot of obligations pulling them different directions.

It is the same (or similar) reason why I think LCs didn't turn over information: some of these "restricted" assets are "we just don't want to give it up".

Yes. UNLESS they pay into whatever Settlement Trust plan is set up as part of the bankrptucy, the LCs get sued so do the COS. BUT that only occurs in states that lifted or extended the statute of limitations. That is why so many LCs are fighting this (I think) is that they do not look at this as "there are 1,000 claims against my council". but as "there are 1,000 claims THAT ARE TIME BARRED against my council, so why should I pay a dime?" The answer (from a purely legal perspective) is if that state legislature ever decides to reopen the statute of limitations, that council is covere

Case 20-10343-LSS Doc 1913 Filed 01/08/21 Page 19 of 20

I will be very interested to see how the court rules on LCs being legally separate entities. Is there a timetable for that decision? It very much strikes me that the LC are separate - though the BSA's need for brand control and uniformity makes it seem that they are not. We have our own budgets, build our own camps, control our own programming, drive our own membership. We just have to do it all according to BSA policies, have to hire BSA trained people, at the higher levels we have to hire people with BSA experience, and have to have our facilities accredited by the BSA. It alm

I think that is one of the debates in the courts. To me, this is the #1 question on the table. How liable are our local councils? My understanding that if the court determines that LCs are separate and there is no negotiated settlement, lawsuits could start against COs and LCs. Then, the state court where those lawsuits are brought would determine liability on a case by case basis and results would follow state law. If these cases then drive LCs into bankruptcy court, that court would take over for each LC. I wouldn't be surprised that councils in certain states would end up in ban

Don't worry, there's always room at The Summit (do we capitalize The??). It's on the books for $345 million...and a bargain at that no doubt 😀

That is great for you. That must be something your population really wants and you are doing well at meeting that need. Our summer events are always barely attended. Taking a break over the summer works for us. We do a couple limited things but don't go full bore.

Looking through the claims, GSUSA is asking for $8.4M and BSA's offer is $50K.

Yes, unrestricted money is much more difficult to work with. For example, let say someone donates and puts on a requirement that is be used EXCLUSIVELY for Varsity Teams. Now on paper people say "Council's rolling in money!" when in fact all that money is tied to Varsity Teams. And what happens when Varsity Teams cease to exist? Or there is a POT of money and only 1 Team left? Then you get into a messy area of law called cy pres where you have to go to court and convince a judge to bend "Varsity Teams" to mean...something else? I mean people want to fund THEIR pet project/THEIR pet p

This is not complicated. Stop worrying about service hours. The only reason BSA wants you to count it is so that they can for-sure-brag about the dollar utility of scouting to this nation. The scout slogan is Do a good turn daily. If scouts are doing that -- and it sounds like they are -- then they've performed the requisite hours of service. If not, then no dog-and-pony show at an ECoH or clocking hours at some project will make a hill of beans difference in the youth's scout spirit. Tell your boys to help the old folks in your life to navigate vaccine sign-up. I assure you that the

I was the worst at attending these - even as Troop Committee Chair. There's only so many hours for volunteering and since so many of them were on a Saturday afternoon I was always doing something else. In our troop of 50+, there might be 5-10 Scouts there. To me this was another reason to do them at a Troop COH. Better to have the whole troop there on a normal Scout night to see the event than the 5-10 that knew the Scout well enough to go to their special event.

A national BSA contribution to the Trust that includes a significant portion of national BSA’s unrestricted, non-core assets that are not subject to liens of its secured lender. A loan from the National Boy Scouts of America Foundation to the BSA to provide the BSA with sufficient working capital following emergence from bankruptcy. A contribution of at least $300 million from local councils to the Trust. I'm not sure what I was expecting to see from that statement, but am left struggling for words. No wonder BSA has gotten such a negative reaction, and it isn't just because

Bigger picture comment - I've never been a big fan of parents organizing an Eagle COH. It forces parents to figure out how to put together an Eagle COH everytime and puts a lot of stress on them. In addition, that usually then adds yet another event to the troop schedule. But that's a different topic for another day. If in general attendance is good and this is a one-off, then I would suggest that the SPL needs to appoint a scout to each slot. My specific recommendation: The Scoutmaster requests a list of positions needed from the mom. Scoutmaster turns to the SPL and says

Gotcha - thanks. Myself, I don't even think about national that much anymore. I'm a district level volunteer and so I live in the world of unit health. What national does certainly impacts us, but they more or less do what I need them to do and don't get in the way too much. As part of my volunteer work, I've seen enough at the council level to recognize that we really do operate as a council independently of national. The layoffs we've had locally in the professional ranks have more to do with Covid and membership loss than anything. No one at national is telling us who to la

File under: Why bean-counting of service hours should be stricken from all rank advancement requirements.

I do think they put more emphasis on Summer Camp than the Scouting Community. The whole purpose of the order is to have an outward impact on the Scouting program, not inward focus on building Scout Camps, which is what many of the lodges have done. There is a larger non-OA member scouting community out there that needs the Lodge service more now than ever before.

I don't know how things are other places so, this may be just applicable to my council. I am a bit concerned about our Camp Rangers when properties may be sold off. I think all of our rangers live on site in homes owned by the council. Not only will they lose their jobs, they will also lose their homes.

Speaking of LCs. When I got back in Scouting in 1981, I joined Greater Cleveland Council. That council was surrounded by Great Trail Council, Firelands Area Council, Northeast Ohio Council, and Warren Council. Only the first of these entities exists today. Twenty-seven years ago, Warren Council, down to two employees, merged with Northeast Ohio Council and the bankrupt Mahoning Valley Council (Youngstown after the steel industry collapse). Think in terms of Seras and Kmart merging. The merged council was named "Western Reserve Council." Twenty-six years ago, Firelands Counci