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I feel that to some degree we are discussing things that are wishful thinking and not reality. Yes, it would be helpful if some higher power swooped in and absolved BSA of responsibility for questionable or unprovable claims from 60 years ago. However, in the current environment where we literally have states and some national voices considering how to assess reparations for events that happened 200 to 400 years ago, I would not hold my breath over expecting anyone on the federal level to get involved in reducing statutes of limitations. Or, in legislating some good will measure that exonerat

Request respected and appreciated. We're all passionate about Scouting and this most certainly is a very difficult issue for all of us.

This whole topic is about the bankruptcy of the Boy Scouts of America. What high adventure bases will be sold, which councils will go bankrupt, which local camps will close, and now which chartered organizations will pay. We've already seen the impact of insurance companies paying in the form of higher insurance premiums to kids. There is no scenario under which the BSA does not pay money. With that in mind, just what is the third option that does not result in the choice: deny abuse victims compensation for those reprehensible things that BSA leadership overlooked or failed to follo

But we all got signed off on all the requirements when we took IOLS. My understanding is that it was supposed to be enough for an adult to teach a scout the skills. After having swung the axe half a dozen times before teaching someone else how to swing it this sounds like guaranteed frustration for everyone involved - the new leader, the IOLS instructor and the scout. This thread is all about online training being a mistake. My only point is that solving this problem won't solve the bigger issue of accepting that all of the skills take time to learn. Online training could be part of the s

Except that, and this is important, Kosnoff is not the lead lawyer in the bankruptcy proceeding. On the contrary, the actual lead attorneys (the tort claimants' committee) want him OUT of the proceedings.

Folks, Would it be possible to take a pause for a little bit? I know this is a very challenging issue that is extremely multifaceted. I see all sides of the arguments. I know folks who were molested, I know someone falsely accused (criminal investigation conducted and evidence supported her story), and I had to keep Cubs occupied while police intervened (that was not a good night at camp). Let's remember the #1 goal of the lead lawyer as stated in the Diane Rheem interview linked in a previous post and in another interview I heard him in : the complete dissolution of the Boy Scouts

We had a claim where the plaintiff supplies copious details. We could find no information within the Telephone Company that the plaintiff existed, much less that one of our trucks hit him in a Cleveland street then left the alleged scene. It was late on the night of a storm, and we had nearly twenty trucks out working, some in that area. All the trucks were carefully inspected - by us and the CPD, with no indication of an impact. He also had a medical reports attesting to his injuries - a fractured pelvis and broken arm included. Fortunately, we could prove he was in jail in Toledo that n

That's the whole point of statue of limitations. As other posters have noted, there are claimants who cannot remember basic details about the alleged abuse: when, where, who? I hate being in a position where I'm casting doubt on abuse claims, but how can the BSA or any organization defend itself against 30, 40, 50 year old claims, particularly when the victim cannot remember any of the details either?

Another question that has come to mind is are these "lawyers" investigating cases where the actual perpetrator is known? If so, did they go beyond their participation in BSA? Were they possibly employed by some kind of youth related group or agency? Did they also work with youth sports or the Y, or Boys and Girls club? If so, were there possible similar complaints there? Finally, it is odd, at least to me, that there are claims that are saying they do not remember who, or what unit, or where they met, and so on. IF it traumatized them from that long ago period, you would think they m

Exactly, the same logic would have gotten the Catholic Church off scot free on abuse cases. After all, we run hospitals, schools, universities, clinics, food pantries. That doesn't matter. An agent of the Church or the BSA committed a tort, the organization is liable for the behavior of its agents. The only question is, how much does the organization owe for the torts in question? There are most certainly compelling reasons to not entirely liquidate the BSA, the Catholic Church, or the LA Public School district after sex abuse torts, but if those organizations aren't responsible for the har

I expect BSA and local Councils will pay. But your doom scenario (HA camps sold, council camps closed, etc.) is not automatically a given. As for the "penalize the children", this same argument can be made to shield/shelter/protect any not-for-profit that commits a tort. Can't sue Feeding America for any tort, after all that would "punish" those who do not get enough food. What you are proposing is that any not-for-profit or charity becomes lawsuit proof because any claim against the not-for-profit or charity "penalizes the hungry people today" or "penalizes the homeless peop

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: The perpetrators, the ones actually responsible are long gone for the most part. The local authorities and political or power brokers that protected the actual perpetrators are basically ignored, since they are either some civilly protected entity or are conveniently untraceable. Most of the claimants likely are not in the so called Perversion files, as they were shielded by those connected entities or their family's chose, at the time, to NOT put the claim into the public eye. And, if the claim is actually in the Ineligible Volunteer File, there are notes as

Well we started the week with a cougar attack and now we have another cat fight. BTW, the BSA selected BOTH options The Debtors commenced these chapter 11 cases to achieve the dual objectives of (a) timely and equitably compensating survivors of abuse in Scouting and (b) ensuring that the BSA emerges from bankruptcy with the ability to continue its vital charitable mission. These objectives remain unchanged. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/855387_1519.pdf ...and now back to our show.

Nope - that may happen, but that's a side question. That's the "we'll stick it to the system concept and no-one is hurt." That's conflating the issue by suggesting that someone else is harmed that is not victims or kids of today. Really this comes down to the hard question: let abuse victims sue in perpetuity so that we do not deny abuse victims compensation for those reprehensible things that BSA leadership overlooked or failed to follow-up on limit the timeframe of suits so that we do not penalize the kids of the United States today because some volunteers many years ago d

Your comment raises an interesting question. Any work I've ever done for federal or state government has had to meet all sorts of standards for non discrimination. Even though it's pretty much unlikely, If Congress were to actually examine the charter, how would BSA fair? Until recently, the organization has not exactly been welcoming to large and politically important categories of the nation's youth. And while girls are now allowed, they are still segregated into separate dens/troops,. There is also the problem of church involvement and the fact that atheists are not welcome. There have been

The old animal trainer I worked for trained the MGM lions and he taught them to snarl and roar on cue. Here's a fun commercial with the Mercury kitty.

So, if you make it to the century mark, you get Congressionally-imposed immunity from tort liability? So, if the tort/abuse is more than a year ago (vs. "years"), you get Congressionally-imposed immunity from tort liability? So, if the CURRENT volunteers are squeaky clean, then all prior bad acts (and liability) for the incorporated entity's officers and agents get Congressionally-imposed immunity from tort liability? There literally are no owners of the BSA (36 USC 30906(b) "The corporation may not issue stock or declare or pay a dividend."). So, if your organization i

I remember that cat. I would have loved to have met him. He had a fabulous snarl.

That sounds great, and that may have been a 19th century view of things, but as a legal matter, it matters not a whit. All "Congressional charter" means is "I got pull in Congress". And BSA did. 100 years ago. Now, to try and use the fact that it has a congressional charter as some sort of shield from abuse claims? "Sorry you got molested and all, but we have a Congressional Charter, so too bad." And I'm sorry, but if I'm a lawfirm and you write a law that allows for absolute waivers of liability as long as I can somehow register as a charity? I'm all over that. Sorry you were molest

I would like to see legislation that limits extensions of statue of limitations for federally chartered organizations. Here we have a nationally chartered corporation whose ability to fulfill it's legislated charter is now in doubt because states have extended the statute of limitations to levels beyond what is practical for what is largely a volunteer organization. Congress should recognize that this action by the states is causing harm to the ability of these kind of organizations to meet their charters. Having a reasonable duration on the statute of limitations for a congression

I know, but I still hope.

Momma was not happy lol. Back in the days when parents were less concerned about childhood death and dismemberment, I worked for a guy who had exotic animals for the movies, including big cats. I definitely learned some interesting things that are not in G2SS.

I agree, wood tools needs more time in training AND information in the SHB. When I reviewed the last time I did IOLS, the section on wood tools in the BSHB was missing so much info compared to older BSHBs, that I handed out sections from my 1960s FB and some other sources. Mixed emotions on this one. While I agree the older Scouts should be able to teach the younger Scouts and new adults these skills, I've seen a few things that make me question the idea. First the idea of "One and Done" is so prevalent, I am seeing fewer and fewer Scouts that actually have the skills to do the

In other words scouters should work their way through the advancement program to 1st class ... getting signed off by an SPL or JASM as they obtain skill mastery.

My single favorite moment from Cub Scouts was when my son''s Bear den leader taught knife skills. He spent three whole meetings on it. Week 1 - he brought in the largest selection of knives I've ever seen. Hunting knives, cooking knives, utility knives, you name it. He explained blade construction. He explained handles design. The scouts got to handle everything and see how they worked. He then taught the boys how to sharpen a blade. He had more sharpening stones than I've ever seen. He explained how to remove gauges and how to progress through different stones to get the best ed

Concur, but that is why they call it the "Introduction to..." Is there a BSA course for adults to learn these skills in any depth? Not in my experience...even went to National Camp School twice for Scoutcraft (back in the day). It was better, but still didn't hit the mark. It wasn't until I started reading my Scout Handbook and the merit badge pamphlets, putting together the materials and skills so I could teach them at Scout camp...(served on 15 camp staffs in various disciplines.) I have taught many IOLS classes...and too many people are looking for the "easy" answer or some

Shortage of adult volunteers has been an increasingly severe problem over decades, and BSA has done little or nothing about it. As a District Chairman, tired of telling kids and want-to-be Co's that there could be no unit without X adults registered as Scouters, I contacted Eagle Scouts not currently registered. I got a 13% "take rate," including eight new Scoutmasters - well worth the effort. I received a letter of reprimand from Region for violating the BSA policy that prohibited direct recruiting of adults: "Adults must come with the boys." Well, that was not working well in Orange Co

In this situation there were only 3 things the cat was thinking about. Are my babies food, are you food and am I food? I didn't see the babies but if they were there then that was the cat's first thought, kill was the second, but we don't know. A cat going after a person in the middle of the day is really unusual. The other options are who is the food here? Rule one, don't look at the cat. That makes the cat feel like food and that is a problem. But this guy was just trying to figure things out. Rule two is don't run away. While backing up and looking at the cat this guy was projecting that he

Interesting ...BSA representation followed to our lawyers new firm? For the Boy Scouts: Jessica Boelter, Thomas Labuda, Michael Andolina, Matthew Linder and Blair Warner of Sidley Austin and Derek Abbott, Andrew Remming, Eric Moats and Paige Topper of Morris, Nichols, Arsht & Tunnell from Reuters The Boy Scouts of America is represented by Derek C. Abbott, Andrew R. Remming, Eric W. Moats and Paige N. Topper of Morris Nichols Arsht & Tunnell LLP, and Jessica C. K. Boelter, Michael C. Andolina and Matthew E. Linder of White & Case LLP. from Law360 (October 14, 2020, 9:4

That's not at all what Tahawk was saying. His example was only to illustrate the effect lapsing time can have on claims. Giving feedback, and I mean it with respect. This is the second thread in about a week where you are jumping down people's throats and assuming the worst about what other people say. You're clearly very smart, and specifically on this topic, very well informed. I appreciate the knowledge you bring to these topics. Just relax a little bit. You are ending up arguing against positions that people don't actually hold.

Does raising costs penalize kids? Does closing camps penalize kids? I struggle with the logic of your argument. You have this notion that extract damages without their being an impact on the youth of today. How does one extract large settlements for each abuse victim without there being a negative impact on the kids today? I don't know the specifics of the lawsuits that you reference here. I looked, but have not found them yet. Give me some data and I'm sure I can provide an answer. Let's recall that my proposal was not blanket immunity, but instead a cap on t

Yep. And one last thing you keep skipping over and over. What will insurance be forced to cover. You simply skip over it so you can offer a false choice between two false premises. If the total liability/claims is = insurance coverage, BSA will NOT have to sell local camps, sell HA bases, etc. Insurance premiums will rise, but that is all. We don't know what claims valued at how much we are even talking about here yet.

Your comment has nothing to do with what I wrote - which was about the public policy question from a federally created organization being impacted by statute of limitations changes in individual state laws. You're trying to turn my comment into something very different. No thanks.

So you do expect the BSA will pay. The choice below doesn't say anything about how much. So we're back to the same choice: deny abuse victims compensation for those reprehensible things that BSA leadership overlooked or failed to follow-up on? penalize the kids of the United States today because some volunteers many years ago did reprehensible things and some professionals many years ago did equally reprehensible things by not preventing that from happening? So you're in favor of providing abuse victims compensation and penalizing the kids of today because you believe that th

The lawsuits against BSA are not "penalizing" the kids of today any more than people without food are "penalized" when Feeding America gets sued. Nice use of loaded language. I reject your premise and charaterization.

I never claimed that. I simply said that at some point there should be a limit on how long we let lawsuits continue to linger. There comes a point in time where history is history.

This is what led me to say that perhaps it's time for Congress to say - enough on continual and perhaps even open ended extensions to the statute of limitations. Somewhere in there is a reasonable length for how long an entity should be liable. perhaps for a person liability extends to their whole lifetime perhaps for a for-profit corporation that liability is longer because of the gain in profits and the ability to assess stock holders perhaps for non-profits the statute of limitations is shorter because there is no ownership group.

One person lied, therefore all the victims claiming abuse against the BSA are liars. Got it.