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Hi everyone, it's me, again, a moderator. It seems that the temperature on social media has gone up in the past week. I've seen some really ugly things posted on facebook recently by scouters I know. Bad enough that I'm wondering why I should even be in scouting anymore, much less trying to keep the peace on this forum. But then I remember that scouting is good for the world and I try for another day. While things are not too ugly here, I see people talking past each other. Buried down in the core of this argument is something worth discussing but instead people get hung up on periph

The main problems with the "local option" argument are: 1.That is exactly what allowed segregation to exist in BSA troops until the 1970s. 2. Hypocritically, it was some outside COs, troops, councils,... who pushed the "no gay scouts & leaders" doctrine to disallow gay scouts and scouters in troops which were not theirs. The Dale case was the result. We know the rest. I understand some have significant personal objections regarding those who are gay. There were those who had significant objections to mixed race troops too. It took 50 years and we are mostly past the latter.

Hey everyone, moderator here. This thread is a bit past Courteous. Comments are getting personal. I'd say the easiest way to fix it is to walk away from it for a day. YIS, MattR

When I was a scout in the 1980s, I was a member of a troop that was not diverse, not because of anything that the Scouts had done, but because I grew up in an area where African American families were redlined out of their ability to live for an extended period of time. I didn't know that as a young scout, though as I got somewhat older and learned some of the complicated history of race and politics in the area I came to understand that the way things were when I was a kid depended on things that had been done many years before. It wasn't a value judgement about my troop or its actions, it

I have decided to look at this current situation and look at myself to see how I can work to make change, to do my part not to support or tolerate racism. I am adamant that the status quo is not enough. It obviously is not. It has not Contributed to changing the situation, and we have a significant number of our American population who are disenfranchised because racism is tolerated. I applause BSA for being willing to participate in the confersation, knowing that it has a national presence across this great country and can make a difference, and not just bury it head in the sand and refu

@Liz As a 26 year veteran of the armed forces, I spent more of my career supporting humanitarian missions around the world than I did supporting combat operations under the orders of my civilian governments, which you (we) elected. Your comment shows an incredible level of ignorance, and is downright unscoutlike. I recommend you delete it yourself before the moderators do.

I am celebrating the 24th anniversary of my 29th birthday this year! 29 is a great age to keep for the rest of your life 😜

29 is absolutely young.... because I'm quickly closing in on it. 😂

What I personally do and position this for the youth is that we will always be non-discriminating and inclusive to people. </Ramble on> There are many things that we have done over time to people that are well intentioned but the received perception may not be received in how we would have liked or expected. e.g. someone that has lost weight "you look great, good job on losing weight. You must feel healthier now". The comment might seem to you to be positive but the reception might be "You have been unhealthy and you are finally losing weight." it is kinda like the telephone

I did not imply anything. I am not black, never have been. But what I did do was try to understand the challenges my peers have undergone. Men and women who I know well and respect. It was eye opening what they have gone through. Is there something wrong with that concept, something we don’t want to teach our scouts about understanding and empathy? It’s far easier to just think there are no problems, to think there is nothing more you can learn, to say “don’t have that problem here”.

I find myself looking back a lot in this discussion. My Dad and uncle were heavily in scouting before and during WWII. I was a scout during and after the Vietnam War. My sons were scouts during the Gulf wars. Only once through all my many many discussions on the subject of scouting did the idea of Scouting being a para-military organization ever come up, and that was with a liberal friend who was inquiring of my SM expectations of him if he volunteered as an ASM. He was never a scout as a youth, so he had no idea what to expect, but wearing the uniform was a concern. We generally tented togeth

Navybone, Thanks for swearing the oath and putting on the uniform. I never indicated the BSA was a training ground for military or police. My intolerance was for Liz's comment indicating military and police are "killing brown people at home and abroad." That is a blatant, broad-brushed accusation of racism in the military and police. I will not tolerate that kind of false accusation. And as you know, and should be in your experience, the military is the most egalitarian institution in our society. Of all organizations I have been involved with in my life, the US military

When I was in scouting, the very idea you just mentioned would neither have been suggested, imagined or tolerated. Military and law enforcement were structure, order and fun were honored tools for boys that resonated and still do. The people I knew and know were all very civic minded and almost all progressive. Many are professors. Your correlation and perhaps even veiled suggestion that killing, dividing and conquering were motivators is galling. most military is support, meaning cooks, nurses, doctors, truck drivers and so forth. Only a small part are direct combat. Many who

Yes, it can be argued and has. You said we should go back to an age limit. There wasn't a policy of an age limit for the organization. You may have been subjected to one, but it isn't something the "organization should go back to" because it didn't exist. That is the argument.

No, but I can recall the first time in my scouting history when I first felt that BSA had become anti-Catholic, denigrated my faith, and devalued my religious beliefs completely.

I think you misinterpreted...maybe your experience is different but scouts still procrastinate until the last minute and therefore are only concerned with checking off the last blocks on their MBs. You can yell, scream, jump up and down, cajole and explain keeping ahead of the game but they still do what they do. Eventually it is their responsibility. Why is the average age a scout earns Eagle 17.8 y/o. The value of scouting to me is enormous. Been doing this for close to 50 years. However you cannot get in the middle of a family's responsibility when it comes to their role as parent.

When you've been a stick in the mud, if not an actual dam in the mud, regarding other issues like girls in scouting or differently gendered kids in scouting, it is hard to have credibility when addressing things like racism. BP was a flawed individual, but what he showed through his actions as he evolved through time is that he was always youth first as best he understood that to be. Scouts lately has not been youth first. It's been church first, special interest first, rank first, Eagle scout first, adults first, politics first, or money first. It needs to get back to youth first. And outdoo

The Lakota had a significant period of time in Ohio, before they were forced to migrate by other hostile tribes. Not going to speak for @TAHAWK, but that might be why.

The OA Lodge I joined followed the Lakota tradition. Every other year we sent a group of 12-18 (2-3 station wagons) to the Res to be trained in Lakota dancing and ceremonies. They did not want us to perform the Ghost Dance for religious reasons, and we did not. I was trained as a drummer, not being graceful. Of course, they were very conservative. They routinely wore European clothing, ate European food, and drove motor vehicles. It never occurred to me that they were engaged in "Cultural Appropriation, " but this was back before PC. American Indians were on

Thanks for finding the additional info. This circulated around Scouts L and the initial poster indicated "young scouters" … I guess 29 is young to some

I appreciate your thoughtful response. Instead of cherry picking, I will say there is much good to what you have written. Thoughtful, measured and Reasoned thinking is a welcomed approach here. The entire focus of this online series of forums is to maximize the scope of possibilities for successful scouting in times of change. That can only be done by acknowledging the experiences and reasoned thinking others bring to the table. Many of the comments have been borderline disrespectful and offer no solutions. We (Generally) might disagree on methods of successful scouting and

AH yes, another Murlin Scouter heard from. Greetings from Mungmry County...... Yes, dry clean, especially non-carbona use. You can also contact the Smithsonian, they will advise on such things as preserving fabric artifacts. My story: I was my Troops first Eagle, 1963.... The Troop was founded in 1956 or so. I "grew up" and moved away. When I returned with Scoutson (very pleased he chose my old "home Troop") in 2006, I became a ASM and got active with the Troop. At a CoH, I thought I noticed something about the flags used. After, I inspected them, found the US flag had 48

Ah yes. OA. The Scout Honor Camper Society. Some few questions for y'all... 1) What, exactly, are the present minimum "official", Irving requirements for membership in the OA ? 2) After the Scout "qualifies", How would a Scout be chosen (join?) the OA ? 3) Why should a Scout aspire to be a member of the OA, assuming he/she is already satisfied (having fun?) being an "ordinary" Scout/Venturererer/Sea Scout? 4) What benefits accrue in being an Arrowperson? What responsibilities? 5) How come this thread hasn't been rerouted to the OA forum ?

So, you tolerate everything except intolerance?

it is a meritocracy. However, as every service chief has clearly stated, there is still racism in the military, and an order or regulation cannot erase it. And much like the statement and purpose of the BSA statement, there is much that needs to be done, and that everyone need to take a look, have a conversation with those experiencing racism to better understand it, and be brave confront it when you see it. there is no room for intolerance - be it due to color of skin, religion or political belief.

Awesome - you Lodge had an age limit. Almost no one else did. You think we should "bring back" the age limit. I disagree - can we move on.

Take a freaking chill. I guess the 6 different versions of the handbook that span a few decades I have that don't mention this must all be wrong then? It was your SM that had the requirement, as SM has the final approval of who goes on the ballot. Accept that and move on. I see no reason to mandate what should already be an SM function- heard directly by a member of the National Board who is a former Associate Lodge Adviser from my Lodge that this question has been posed to them before, and was raised last year again when the discussion to allow Venturers and Sea Scouts in (as those p

So, you are trying to look smarter by scrapling with words, shesh, some of us just want to get scouting back on the tracks. Here, maybe we can get the real important subject going again, Mrjeff you are the smartest person on the forum. Can we move on now? Barry

I too am a military member with as many years in the service (and still serving) and completely disagree with you. The US is decidedly not a military state. There are reasons that military wear (camp pants) are frowned on to be worn at account events. BSA is not about training youth for military, but for developing leadership, resilience, confidence, and Overall contribute to society as adults. While this is much like that military offers, BSA is not a military organization. What Liz says is fine, and I have concern with your lack of tolerance with people who disagree with you.

We had it when I was a scout and after my involvement of working with the maturities of youth, I believe there should be and age limit of 14. There is even and biological reason for it; 14 is the the average age when puberty changes the maturity of at least the male brain from the instinct of learning to survive to the instinct to protect and provide. Based from my experience, I believe strongly that scouts aren't ready for the real responsibilities of leadership or role modeling adult maturity until 14 years old, give or take. In fact, we didn't allow scouts to participate in NYLT until 14 be

What are you talking about "agency"? Also, it has been clearly shown it wasn't a policy. You may have been subjected to an age limit, it wasn't part of the program on a national basis.

Ah but would we have equal access and equal outcome? “It represented for me the first time in my scouting history where I feel like the organization saw me, and valued me completely,” he said. David remember when that first happened to you? Me neither. My $0.02,

I am sure that conservative scout leaders could likewise pen a letter and have it signed by thousands of scouts. What would that prove, except that we can sink as low as the political opposition?

Equal access I agree with..."equal outcomes" is an ill-conceived idea. The unalienable right of Pursuit of Happiness is not a guarantee of happiness... There be dragons...

Like "defund the police", "local choice" can infer good and bad. When I hear "local choice", I think of the beliefs and values of the the charter organizations. BSA asks the charters to give physically and financially. BSA provides the conceptual structure and the written program. Charter organizations provide this physical space and financial support. In that context, BSA must not discriminate membership. Charter organizations have the right though to host programs that reflect their own beliefs and values. There is always the option for parents to form scouting units under

I enjoyed reading your thoughtful post. I too received my Eagle in the 80’s and had an all white troop. I was in Memphis if that means anything, Yet I never once heard the first racist or elitist word. 30+years does, however, play games with memory as I’m finding out. i am one who advocates local control but not as an excuse to discriminate. That’s how such statements come across...as a pale echo of states rights which has all sorts of nefarious baggage with it. i, and I suspect others, recognize that local people within the troop that are of a community and are parent

I hear what you are saying. But it must be remembered that affiliation is a choice people make. When I was in law school, the black professor from Georgetown law, also a Naval Intel Officer, asked the black students why they all sat together. It was a novel question. The answer was that it was a comfort and cultural identity factor. Who could begrudge them that? Are we going to tell someone in a troop to make people feel unwelcome? I doubt it though there are always jokers to prove me wrong. Are we going to tell someone they are wrong for choosing to go where they feel comfortable

I’m with you. This is precisely why local influence and control has to have the final word over fluctuating external pressure for ideology. Grandiose ideas are fantastic sounding and can whip up people in a frenzy, but in the trenches, one on one in a community and with each scout, it’s a different reality.

That the guy they have also attacking women on video, before he uses mace and then shoots a guy during a protest. You are right, that is not scouting.

I am Conservative and I am Catholic. I just don't believe my views need to be part of a youth community organization to which all are welcome. Or should be.

Man, your assumptions are very general in what liberals think. I consider myself very liberal, and that is not at all what I think.

Two thoughts, First based on your website - "Police killed 1004 people in 2019. Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population" Second, and the most important in my mind - this is not about systematic racism or police bias. That is what some of the protest are about, but it is really about stopping racism in the entire country. This is not a new problem, it has been part of this nation since its start. It did not end after the civil war, it did not end with civil rights legislation, it still exist. That is what the MB and the scouts can help st

If there is a merit. Badge which discusses racism, discrimination, and how it is able to perpetuate, and how to see it and react, why is that a bad thing?How does that not help? Racism is learned, not an innate belief.

2. Reviewing every element of our programs to ensure diversity and inclusion are engrained at every level for participants and volunteers by applying a standard that promotes racial equality and denounces racism, discrimination*, inequality and injustice. 3. Requiring diversity and inclusion* training for all BSA employees starting July 1 and taking immediate action toward introducing a version for volunteers in the coming months. (*atheists not included)

I disagree. I can't disagree with any of these initiatives. Discrimination is wrong on every level

So... BSA has decided to change the Eagle requirements AND add a new merit badge with little or no input from volunteers. Sort of on a whim. Great move. This falls into the "let's do something even if it's not well thought out" category BSA has decided to add to the required training for volunteers with little or no input. Another great move Not saying these are necessarily poor initiatives. They wreak of knee jerk reaction and a lack of actual leadership

I attended my first of many World Brotherhood Camporees in 1975. Always remember the Havre de Grace troop. They used to have the Harford County, MD patches. I later moved to the Southern Tier of NY where the Susquehanna River is, which ends in Havre de Grace. My sister now lives there. Maybe display in a more public place such as the duck decoy museum where scouters from US and Canada can see it.

Eliminating the CO relationship would have the BSA moving toward the system used by the GSUSA, where every unit leader would be directly under the authority of the BSA. The GSUSA blogs are packed with bitter complaints about how volunteers, who are required to sign some kind of contract-style document, are subjected to being dismissed from that organization by the local GSUSA executives and senior volunteers for "noncompliance". I don't know much about GSUSA and am certain I have misstated the details -- but the essence is correct. Scoutmasters and everyone else would be subject to removal

Well, most of them aren't very tall to begin with. 😁