Leaderboard

While there is more to the OA than ceremonies and camp maintenance, these two items are the heart and soul of the OA. The original purpose was to recognize HONOR CAMPERS (emphasis) and not be just an honor society. Arrowman are charged with promoting camping and maintaining council camps. Service is the heart of the OA. When National changed the OA from National Brotherhood of Honor Campers" to the "National Honor Society of the Boy Scouts of America " in 1995 or thereabouts, the OA lost some of it's heart. The Native American based ceremonies were created to inspire and motivate

Parkman, good question. Camping was the very thing that made the OA special. It used to be called the "National Brotherhood of Honor Campers." Only the best scouts who excelled in the outdoors were elected. Ordeals were tough. Big emphasis on Native American history, heritage and respect. Staffing camporees. Performing the most difficult manual labor in the council. I can't recall when, but it was the late 80s/early 90s when it was changed to the "national honor society" of the BSA. Among other things, the outdoor element was very much de-emphasized. It's been a grim downward s

I see BSA and scouting at approaching the same cross roads the YMCA crossed. Faith versus community. When I was young, our local YMCA had a big cross at the entrance and crosses in meeting rooms and other significant places. The YMCA was very very much a Christ based organization with strong ties to local churches. Now, the crosses and ties to local churches are all but gone. Still in the title, but the rest is mostly gone. Most customers of the YMCA saw the YMCA as a local organization for exercise and community. It was created and supported by the churches for much of it's life

You folks all hit some good marks, and my observations from the past 5 years being back in Scouting with my son generally fall in line with your perceptions. I also began to really talk to “older scouts” (as well those who were 18+ that still came around the Lodge events. Personally, yes National got very skittish on “the secret society” concerns, and the directive today on Ordeal is basically if the candidate shows up, and stays through the induction ceremony, that is all that is required. You can’t make them do the challenges, and anyone who wants to know all what goes on during the weekend

It was evolution, no designer. It took all the time in the world. Current science says earth is 4.51 Billion years old, and life first started about 3.8 BILLION years ago. The first fossils with eyes date from about 540 million years ago...so that's 3.3 billion years to evolve the eye...seems eminently feasible to me.

https://www.scouting.org/familyscouting/ is the one source of truth from the national council.

I think this was a big part...now it's get 15 nights camping and 1st Class, and you're pretty much in. Elections changed from "should I really vote for this guy?" to "is there any reason I shouldn't vote for this guy?"...

I can't speak for Canada but in the UK the position is that atheists are entirely welcome. There is an atheist version of the promise but it is just one of 4 different versions which reflect different religious beliefs. You can read them all here. That does not mean duty to God has been dropped entirely. Exploration of your own beliefs is still part of the program but they do not have to be religious. I don't know what other groups are like but probably around 60-70% of my new scouts choose one the of the faith based version of the promise with 30-40% making the no faith version

So in your opinion, Scouts Canada, and Scouts UK isn't "real" Scouting? Getting so tired of hearing that atheists don't have a moral compass or that religious people have some moral superiority. It's possible to teach morals, values and duty to fellow man without believing in god. I'd much rather teach my son to help others because it's the right thing to do instead of being good out of fear that an invisible sky man is going to smite him.

Agree. I have found Scouters tend to either A) be harder on their own kids than other Scouts or B) "pencil whip" the requirements. There have been a few instances where I had to sign off for my sons because I am the only registered MBC for the merit badge. I make darn sure others are shown the work and can verify that the requirements were actually met. And that I am not to hard on my sons.

Your comments are aligned with my experience. People want "values taught" that are "inline with" their own faith. It's not that scouts is a key factor in teaching faith. It's more about scouts being compatible with their faith.

Good point. As a Scout, I was motivated to advance quickly also to be a leader. I recall hitting a point about 18 months in where I was Star and needed only merit badges to advance. Find a MBC was a royal pain and I lost interest there. I wanted to be a leader, but got stuck with stuff like Chaplain's Aide and Quartermaster. I had no Idea how to make that into anything fun. Between the two of those, I got very dis-enchanted. Leaders tried to get me to come around but I lost hope. I ended up being a den chief for the next 18 months and pretty much never going to troop meetings. I

With the upcoming Holiday Season, I thought I would take this opportunity (while it’s still allowed – and you can take that any way you’d like) to post a Lënape version of Clement Moore’s most well known work – ‘Twas the Night Before Christmas. This version is done in the Northern Unami dialect - this is the one the OA borrowed all its nomenclature from. The left side is the Lenape, the right side the literal translation to English. This was translated by one of my Lenape language contacts, Ray Whritenour (a/k/a/ Schkaak). Mr. Whritenour is one of the foremost authorities

The main reason I am involved in the scouting program is the values taught within the scouting program which I see as falling inline with my own religious beliefs. Within the scouting program I do not hide my religious beliefs but I also do not push them onto anyone else that is a member of the scouting movement. If a scout asks me about my beliefs I will share my beliefs with them, then let them make there own decision.

Not new to Scouts, but to this forum certainly. I found the forum by searching Camporee information, so as to help a struggling District plan one.

(Ok, here I go anyway.) But who is to decide which values "reflect back to god"? You have made clear that in the teaching of your religion, homosexuality is immoral. And yet there are other Christians who do not believe that way. My son's wedding was officiated by an Episcopalian priest, a woman, who is married to another woman. The same division exists within my own religion. There are openly gay Reform rabbis and yet most Orthodox Jews regard homosexuality as a sin. (Predictably, the "middle" movement, Conservative Judaism, is itself deeply divided on the subject.) And every religiou

Yes he has the flag on his uniform. We have required him to stand at attention during the pledge and the rest of our Troop opening along with everyone else at the meeting. We have not told him that he has to say the pledge or salute during the pledge.

I 100% support keeping a faith component of the program. As someone who volunteers in a less faith based Scouting area, let me share what I see. I cannot ever remember a Cubmaster or Scoutmaster tying the oath & law or a discussion on values back to god. What I see around here is that the Oath & Law are emphasized as a set of guidelines or rules by which people of good character live their lives. So, that clause in the Oath (Do my duty to God) is something you do because you are a person of good character and people of good character do their duty to god. However, the cla

I did. I then changed my mind about whether I wanted to discuss it again.

I concur with Parkman's thoughts. The troop my son joined had no chaplain aide, said no prayer before meals and had no sunday services. Our CO has never had any interest in being involved with the scouts either, the church is just a place to meet. Religion was never emphasized in my son's pack or troop (or when I was a cub 30+ years ago). It has only been in the past year that one vocal parent has gotten the troop to say grace and if a scout wants to be a CA, he is welcome to do so. IMO I think the troop leadership just felt that duty to god was best dealt with at home. I was surprised t

Even among Christians, all professed to believe in the same God, there is extreme subjectivity in what is constitutes appropriate thoughts, attitudes, and behaviour.

We have a Jehovah Witness that joined our troop several months ago. His grandmother informed us that he does not say the Pledge of Allegiance or salute the flag since in there Church they see it as Idol worship. She has been told that in our Troop we will salute the flag while saying the Pledge of Allegiance, This is one point in the scouting program that we will not change as a unit. Also as adult leaders of the unit we have informed the unit committee that as leaders of the unit we will hold this youth to the same requirements for advancement as the other scouts when it comes to the s

It's an opinion piece. As we in the UK would say, tomorrow's chip paper. And arguments about god's place in scouting? That's nothing new. I mean, usenet used to have a ggg group, and a pretty unedifying place it was too.

I recently had the opportunity to discuss OA Troop Rep position with a number of Scoutmasters. "Better things to do with their time" was a recurring theme in the discussion about sash and dash. Many of the units in my council do not attend our council summer camp so they have no connection to the service given the camp. I was surprised when I came back to scouting as an adult at what the Ordeal had become. First it was being done multiple times a year instead of just at summer camp (don't want the scouts missing MB class). Second, the Ordeal on the work weekends wrapped up mid afterno

I was one of those Scouts who got elected on the third go around. First year I was eligible, I didn't even vote for myself because the three others eligible were much better choices AND I COULD ONLY PICK TWO (emphasis). I am saddened that my Oldest, who has been eligible for 3 years now has declined to put his name on the ballot because he has no interest in the OA now. This from the kid who helped me build the chapter's drum stand before he was a Cub. And my middle son, who became eligible this year, also declined to put his name on the ballot. Some Arrowmen do care, and

Sad but true. there was a scout who I thought would be a wonderful asset to the Order, best camper and leader in the troop. He got elected, went thru his ordeal, and refused to have anything else to do with OA. When asked why his reply saddened me greatly. " I was the only one who worked all day, the only one who kept my mouth shut. Everyone else was joking and goofing off. Even the members didn't care. If a big joke is all the OA is, I have better things to do with my time."

I concur with you and Eagle94...it used to be a tough cut and there would always be some deserving scouts were not elected each year because of ratios/rules etc. But they were worth their salt, and kept striving for another year and were eventually elected. What shocks me are the reports of scouts who decline the nomination after election. Many of these scouts would have excelled in the old OA. I suspect they just weren't impressed with the OA as it is today, and had better things to do with their time. Quite a contrast to the past.

UNDERSTATEMENT! I've seen the OA slowly deteriorate since National decided some aspect of the Ordeal is 'hazing." and had to be stopped. Now there are no consequences for not following the challenges. Nor are there any consequences when one defiantly and deliberately violates the Ordeal challenges except to create a separate work party by themselves. Whereas once the lodge could have sent the problem home, now the lodge has to accept the problem as a member.And they will be a "sash and dasher." And the deterioration accelerated when National changed the current election procedure in the 1

Welcome to the forum, Matt!

Aside from a few pockets of excellence, the OA bears little resemblance to the original vision of E. Urner Goodman and Carroll Edson. Scouts now routinely decline to join, even if elected. Ordeals are now "experiences." Etc. Boggles the mind. Unheard of back in the day. This is what happens when the special aspects of an organization are watered down. Or removed entirely.

Wow...amazing how fast the councils are trying to separate themselves from National. All the notices are almost identical as if "someone" had prepared a boilerplate for each council. We hope National can get out of their mess but it's not our problem.

Never at any point have I disagreed with you, nor with anything you say. I never said atheists don't have a moral compass. I would never believe that being religious gives one moral superiority. You are confronting the wrong issue. My point was not about morality. It was not about right and wrong. It is about Scouting, and religion being a part of it. Scouting is NOT morality. It is a program designed to help build character in young people. It is a program that uses many different methods to accomplish this. Outdoor programs. Uniforms. Patrols. And yes, doing one's religious duty -

First of all, I think it strange and perhaps somewhat insensitive to group atheists and Jehovah's Witness together; they are as utterly different in their beliefs (or lack thereof) as any two groups can be. Secondly, Duty to God is an integral, inherent part of Scouting - if you remove that element of its composition, in my book, it will cease to be Scouting, regardless of what organization (even the BSA if it comes to that) may claim to be running it. The Scouting program and its methods, as created by Baden-Powell and build up by the likes of Seton, Beard and Hillcourt, is a religious progra

Last weekend, as I spoke at the memorial service for a very influential Scouter from my teenage years, I was overcome with emotion, not just from the memories of a loved one taken at a young age. Unbeknownst to me, 3/4 of the attendees were Scouters and I was the only one wearing my uniform. I wore it because I think about my Scoutmaster and his late wife each time I put on my shirt. Underneath my shirt I wore a special t-shirt I received while working on staff of a district camporee in 1994. As I was sharing a second story with the assembled crowd, I unbuttoned my uniform shirt to show off th

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."

Although li +1 Linked troops are two separate units; tracking their financials on different accounts make sense. Our committee opened an additional checking account under our main bank account for the girl troop - with its own treasurer to manage the books. The girl troop will have separate budget, outings expenses, fundraising, etc.

As a ASM, I never sign my sons requirements, unless it was in a group setting. We have enough ASMs at meetings to send our kids to each other instead. For most our dads, its because we would be harder on our own son then another scout. I know that's not right, but it happens that way.

Going to look in my spare patch box this weekend. Hopefully I have one.

Hi @rubixcube, As a former Troop Committee Chair - I'll add my .02 here. It sounds like you've got a troop that has been run by a certain group of Scouters for a very long time. I'm guessing that yours, and many other families, have relied on them for many years to make many hundreds of decisions. I'm guessing that as a whole the families have been happy to have their time and leadership in support of the Scouts. Now you've got a situation where you look at a significant decision and say "hmm. I don't like that one." You could go down the path of calling Council and trying t

Our family came terrifyingly close to tragedy last night. We were on our way home from a birthday dinner for my nephew when my cell rang and it was my oldest son, who had been in a car accident. He was still trapped in the wreckage. He had stopped on the Interstate for another wreck, and a youngster plowed into the back of his car doing at least 65 mph. I immediately turned around and headed his way and got trapped in the traffic gridlock, as we watched police cars, ambulances and wreckers try to get to the scene. Then got another call saying he was in the ambulance headed to the ER. As

@Scoutmaster Teddy you are not in a predicament, you are in a pandemic. There are forces at play that benefit from inculcating cannabis dependence at an early age. They are operating on a national level. And, local entities (i.e., schools, police, etc ...) are turning a blind eye to the pleas of moralists. I've read about it here, then seen it play out first-hand almost as if it the malefactors read the posts of the scouters who reported on their problem year or two earlier. So, inasmuch as misery loves company, you are in good company. I'm so sorry. This is not a matter of an SM con