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Absolutely. My comment here has some bolding for emphasis and clarity. As a lot of Wood Badgers in my area like to say "Feedback is a gift." I've actually really enjoyed this thread, because it gives me things to look for in my own Councils' NYLT and Wood Badge programs. Obviously not all these critiques apply to every Wood Badger or every Wood Badge program, but it's still great feedback. I obviously can't speak for every Council, but I think mine has a decent handle on some of these things with our Wood Badge and NYLT programs. I definitely do see some of these critiques in my council.

Parkman, I understand how it can seem that the ridicule level is higher than deserved. But I can truthfully say the WB communities I've seen over the decades (several councils) have more than earned the criticism. It's not that it's an accepted practice so much as a frank assessment of how many WBers collectively act. Their condescending attitudes aside, when a group within the BSA feels it's their right to hijack any public event--camporee campfires, courts of honor for scouts, roundtables, etc.--to spend up to 45 minutes presenting a set of beads, that's the clincher. In front of a

That may depend on where you live; in my area Wood Badge is promoted, advertised, even glorified ad nauseum, and for those who haven't taken it (myself included), there is often an uncomfortable amount of pressure to do so, as though one isn't a real Scouter until one has their beads. And the number of Scouters around here who do have them is very high; I've nearly been made to feel somewhat guilty at a few events for being as involved in Scouting as I am and yet not having taken the course. Nevertheless, I have never been one to acquiesce to peer pressure generally, and if I end my Scouting d

I dont think those who have issues with wB believe the scouters who have taken the course are not dedicated, or do not have the desire to be better scouters. I percieve the issue to stem from the idea that wB training is the pinnacle of all scouter training. For me, this is where the disconnect arises. wB is good training, but it in no way meets the standard that it aspires to be. This is not necessarily the wB program, but the inexperienced folks taking the course. Most just don't have the pre-requisite experience and training to fully benefit from a top level training. Hence my suggestion fo

Thankfully, PowerPoint did not exist when I went to Wood Badge (kinda cause personal computers did not exist yet either) and there were a lot of outdoor skills in the course. We were in a primitive section of the council camp for a full week, and any comforts we had in our patrol site we had because we made them. As for the lengthy beading ceremonies we see at occasional Roundtables, they did not exist either. When I completed my ticket, I met with my mentor who gave me the beads, woggle, neckerchief, and certificate. I still have an old black & white photo of the very brief (only

Thanks! I really enjoyed Wood Badge, but I try to be open minded about where it can be better. I had "type 1" and "type 2" adults in my unit when I was a scout growing up. I jumped into Wood Badge at 22 mostly as a way to encourage our Scoutmaster to go. He needed it. It made him a better Scoutmaster, but it wasn't some enlightening experience for either of us. Good training, fun, I still keep in touch with many staff and participants from my course, but not anything the way some folks rave about Wood Badge. Still, I have a pretty positive impression of it. I don't even know if I was a Sc

There is definitely some irony in this response. Barry

Clearly that was inappropriate and wrong. Scouters make bad choices all the time. Reminds me of a time we took our Cub Pack to the Council Cuboree. The OA folks decided that it would be great to have an hour long OA drumming demonstration at the evening Cuboree campfire. So, 6 guys came out and drummed for an hour in front of 600 participants. Needless to say our pack lasted 15 minutes. We did enjoy great sport that night back at the campsite "Hey Bob - are they still going? Yep". Classic. OA Call Out Ceremonies around here are kinda like that too. Ok, we have a great Campore

I was a member of that first wave of recipients of the polio vaccine. Then shortly later, the Sabin vaccine. At school everyone got the Sabin vaccine. I remember it well. We all lined up and walked past the nurse who administered the dose. There was no choice and you had to be apocalyptically stupid to reject this somehow. The Salk vaccine was given at the public health department and I remember being taken there along with my sister. I had an aunt who contracted polio as an adult, and a friend in high school whose family had rejected it...and he was permanently handicapped from the disease. I

So you have 11 Scouts and two patrols? You have one small patrol of experienced Scouts (sort of) and one small patrol of new Scouts? What you have is two completely different programs with a SM that doesn’t know how to run either. Of course the 2 smaller patrols isn’t the elephant in the room (SM with no experience), but I would personally start by mixing the two patrols together for one program. I think a small troop like yours is an ideal place for scouting. Actually perfect. Older Scouts run the program, which requires pulling the the younger Scouts along on adventures. It gives

Not all WBers are horrible. I've worked with many great ones over the years. My SM growing up was WBer. I do not know if he changed how the troop ran as a result of WB or not, but I can count on one hand how many troops I've been in or have interacted with over the years, that compare to my troop under his mentorship. One of my mentors as a 20 year old ASM was a 4 beader on the council level. "Sweet Old Bill" was one who guided and mentored. He listened to folks, why explained things needed to be done, and got it done. But most importantly, he listened to youth and adult alike, whether you ha

I would add the Patrol Leaders Handbook; an edition printed prior to 1970. They are cheap on ebay, and provide concrete examples for an inexperienced PL to try.

I do not have any problem with the Wood Badge course, or people taking Wood Badge. Most my scouter friends took Wood Badge and it was just a training course to them and nothing more. I have a problem with over the top Wood Badge recruiting that spoils a scout activity. I have a problem with scout camp fires becoming surprise 45 minute long beading ceremonies. I have a big problem with the way Wood Badge people haze and insult one another, it is very un-scout like. I have a problem with all the critter based sexual innuendo and inside jokes that sound like sexual innuendo th

It sounds like a good course for a summer camp to offer for scout masters.

You can catch any communicable diseases even though you are vaccinated. They wear off as you age, and as the flu vaccines show us every year, some are not a effective as others. Someone choosing not to vaccinate their child for whatever reason CAN impact my family's health. The BSA should come out as pro vaccination. It's as much a part of teaching about the public good as the citizenship and preparedness lessons we use daily with our Scouts.

Then why do folks keep referring to WB'ers as a group - like they're all the same? The WB'ers ruined this, the WB'ers ruined that. Look at the WB'ers - they're messing stuff up again. It just feels like whatever personal frustration folks have grown into a sort of thing where "real scouters get to make fun of the WB'ers."

To add, ANYTHING WRITTEN BY WILLIAM "GREEN BAR BILL" HILLCOURT (emphasis). Hillcourt took B-P's Patrol Method, and improved upon it with BP's, and after his death Lady BP's, blessing. The bulk of his writings were published from circa 1929 -1972 when the "Improved Scouting Program came out. It was a disaster. Hillcourt came out of retirement to write another edition of the BSA Handbook in 1979. He also wrote numerous articles for BOYS' LIFE MAGAZINE where he got the sobriquet "Green Bar Bill" Also Eagle dad is spot on with going to Traditional Patrols, aka Mixed Aged Patrols. They

I just get the sense that there's a thing in the Scouter community where it's considered an accepted practice to make fun of Wood Badge and those that have taken it. I understand that many feel that they are justified in doing it. It really just seems that somewhere along the way it has grown into something bigger than being rightly frustrated with some Scouters who have taken Wood Badge.

Saying "Wood Badge is just another training course" is technically correct - but it misses some of the most important parts of the experience. Let me see if I can explain. First - It's a shared experience. A Wood Badge course is two very long three day weekends. During that time, the participants spend a lot time getting to know each other. The whole course is structured to encourage that - kinda like the patrol method can for Scouts. Some of the participants clearly have a "when can I go home and mow my lawn" vibe. But, many others embrace the experience. I'll admit - I enjoyed th

Read again. I quoted my father-in-law -- not granddad. Therefore it was referring to how I wound up with the best mother-in-law a guy could ask for. Although I'm sure Mrs. Q gets the "brought int this world" benefit! But Pack's misread shows that blaming the writer for folks who read facts not in evidence is a little silly. It's fine to have a little back and forth to hone in on what's being said, and if what I've said is patently unconscionable, I'm more than happy to change my approach to youth's issues. But, that means the cause had better be against the construct itself and not a str

I agree completely. That is the situation I am in. When I taught SM specific and IOLs, I went after the best folks I could to help with the courses. I even had youth staff who i know had the KSAs to do the job to show what a Scout is capable of doing if you "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" And I have folks I see today who are only paying lip service to the patrol method. One troop was nearly annihilated when one of them took over. he told me that "BSA needed to change with the times." Of the 3 NYLT grads he had when he took over as SM, 1 stayed registered to remain in the OA, but never

Sure - i get the Wood Badge isn't the pinnacle of Scouting knowledge. It's a leadership course set in a Scouting context. It's can provide you tools to be a better Scouter - but they are just that - tools. I'm 100% in support of an advanced course for Scoutmasters. That would be wonderful. A sort of Wood Badge or Powder Horn scale course about being a Scoutmaster. Scout skills, boy led, patrol method, etc. That would be an awesome course! I'm not looking to start up a debate here. I just think that the volume of negative Wood Badge comments are excessive.

I'm in favor of more and better training for Scouters. I've written about that before. I'd really like to see for each major position (SM, ASM, MC, CM, DL) a more significant program of training to get you ready. Not just position training -> IOLS -> Wood Badge. I would think that the programs need to be tailored to the role. i.e., as a CC it's only tangentially relevant to my role to send me through wilderness plant identification training. The Wood Badge topic I always find funny. About 90% of the Wood Badge comments I read are from non-Wood Badge Scouters complaining about

I agree that more training, not less is better. However all training should be incremental. At one time, as has been pointed out, WB was for experienced scouters. It was the highest level after having demonstrated skill at the other levels. The last few iterations are using WB as the introductory training. Which is ok, if it is marketed as such and there exists follow-up advanced trainings. However these do not exist. Imagine a scouter training regimen which has levels and required trainings to be completed to advance in each level. They can be called whatever we wish, but for the reqs co

While comparisons to stomach bugs and other illnesses may be helpful, it is important to note that diseases like measles seem to be very different. 1. People who have contracted measles are contagious for four days before symptoms appear; by contrast, patients infected with the flu are contagious for just one day before symptoms appear. Checking glands and temperatures upon arrival will not catch measles in advance; by the time infected people are found, others have already been exposed. 2. Unlike the flu, there is no "season" for diseases like measles. While it may spread faster i

Yes we are better staffed for Sunday check-in whether that is due to staff planning, state regulation, or camp accreditation I don't know. Well if a scout/scouter has a fever , open wound, fracture,...or a doctor's note, I can't see the argument. Back in the day when polio vaccine came out, Public Health Mb was a recommended merit badge for Eagle Scouts. Be prepared. Another $0.02

The BSA is already pro-vaccination, thank goodness. See Public Health merit badge, requirement 2.

The purpose of the original post was to see if camps had policies in place for future outbreaks. The absence of outbreaks in the past is irrelevant when vaccination rates are declining to the point where "herd immunity" is decaying. For measles, herd immunity requires a vaccination rate of 90-95% and many areas are already well below that (see map). A single nurse isn't going to be able to handle a situation where 10% or more of the children in a large camp are infected. Furthermore, measles patients are contagious four days before symptoms appear. BSA has a religious component, so presum

Because the choices of one greatly impact everyone else. Hep A can pass when dealing with less sanitary condition combined with food, which sounds like every campout cooking situation. Measles can spread very quickly with even casual contact, and is pretty bad.

A new Webelos leader, yay! Welcome to the club; we have the most fun position in all of Scouting! I may be biased of course. There are a few things I suggest you read as soon as you can; fortunately much of it is online. First of all, read the entire Webelos Handbook start to finish. Of all the books for you to be familiar with, that is the most important. Then there is the Cub Scout Leader Book, which goes over all the basics of the Cub Scout program. The print copy can be found at your local Scout Shop or here https://www.scoutshop.org/cub-scout-leader-guide-646725.html and th

I believe you. But it doesn't matter really. I just treat all my Explorer Scouts as individuals, and I seem to get by with that, so the more mature get treated in a more mature way, and those that haven't matured yet don't. I treat the exuberant ones different to the quiet ones, etc etc. Much as I assume most of you do with your boys at the moment.

The double standard for validation of argument has provoked me to react. One side of this discussion has required that their suppositions, predictions of the future, and personal anecdotes are to be taken as valid. While at the same time, they have demanded empirical data from the other side and dismissed years of personal experiences as unsupportable fantasy. I considered going back over the last four pages and cutting/pasting the many examples; but it's not worth my time. One side won't change their minds, and the other side knows exactly to what I am referring. They just have

This forum has defined family Scouting as Dad, Mom, and siblings camping with the troop. Where do they describe that?

At the last Camp-o-ree campfire I went to we had all the Wood Badge folks take the stage and sing 5 or so Wood Badge songs that none of the scouts know and most of the Wood Badge folks did not remember too well ether, then they gave out an award to a Wood Badge person, who then gave a 5 minute or so speech, and then gave we all got a 10 minute or so Wood Badge recruitment talk. All the boys and scouters were as quiet as could be and let them have their time. After all that most the Wood Badge folks then returned to their seats, but 15 or so stayed up front and moved just off stage. . . and