Leaderboard

Many of us not wholly excited about the changes to the program are heavily involved in the program and have been now for many many (oh so many) years. We are running / working in our units day in day out, week in week out, monthly outings, Saturday night campfires, taps being played in the evenings, flag ceremonies, Courts of Honors, meeting with Scouts on advancement, running merit badge sessions, engaging the troop in high adventure, developing leadership among the boys, working to have them in patrols...all the scouting stuff one does out in the mud and the woods. We see the changes

Your cultural defensiveness is showing your ignorance. Many times we are talking about issues that are the result of adult leaders who don't have any previous scouting experience. The fact is the vast majority of inexperienced adult leaders are women. And, hold on to your seat ParkMan, but the vast vast majority of adult leaders without any camping experience are women. And over the years I've been working this issue, I also found that while a lot of mothers are willing to learn camping skills, the great majority don't. We even had one female SM bragging how good her scouts were with crafts b

That's one possibility. Another is the pack, troop, crew and district have leaders who have no interest in working for, with, or supervising a tyrant. Especially in a volunteer position. To be clear, there's a significant difference between strong leaders and tyrants. Although my experience these days is if you push back on, or disagree with, a female tyrant you're accused of sexism right out of the box.

This has also been brought with homosexuality several years ago. One study was about female college students experimenting with lesbianism because it was a fad. Not because they felt that was their preferred sexual desire. My high school teacher son said he doesn't tell me a lot of stuff in this area about his students because I wouldn't believe him. But, peer pressure makes their lives very complicated. I am so glad my kids are grown up. However, they are firing grand kids at me like a machine gun. The worrying never stops. Barry

Your forgot to use the slur "conditional Scouter".

I guess. I worked with a lot of female ASMs who were mostly excited about learning scout skills. I pacified them as much as I could, but I mostly tried to teach them the fine art of sitting around the campfire all day long. Really! All I want from adults is for them to understand the Vision of helping scouts become moral and ethical decision makers. The scouts' Scout Handbook and Leaders Handbooks have enough information for them to do the other scouting stuff. You said it a few days ago, scouting really doesn't require very many adults. Just one really. But, adults want to reinvent

And the 80-90 year old GS moms shake their heads. If only we had a system of sequential awards that could be given as an adult showed demonstrated skills mastery signed off by the SPL (or a mentoring young Eagle scout on loan from another troop) ... something that maybe was used in the past to get entire populations of new leaders up to speed ... hmmmmmm.

I am going to so steal that analogy....

If a unit has to "force" older Scouts to attend to get a SM conference, the issue of conferences is likely the least of their worries. While we would always welcome more of the older scouts, the key to get them to the outings is to have engaging and fun / challenging outings. If the outing is solely based on advancement, then likely it will drive many away. If the district or council camporees do not get enough attendees, maybe pass on those (yes one could get involved and maybe plan more engaging ones but that is a long play). Key is to do stuff they may not do with their friends and

I think mourning describes exactly the response by many of us. Scouting has, or had, a purpose that wasn't just a marketing slogan. We experienced the true effects of growth from our scouting experiences both as youth, and as adults. Those who belittle others for not embracing the new program are naive to understanding the power of the traditional program in helping boys develop lifelong habits of character. Those who show frustration with opposing opinions can't seem to rationalize how many of us consider their condescending tone to be un-scout-like. We don't just believe the power of p

I concur; the simple fact is that boys and girls are supposed to meet in separate dens. That is one policy you cannot, nor should you even attempt to, get around. I would rather work with one stalwart kid alone in a den than try to bend the rules to facilitate what I think is best - or most convenient, as is more often the real case. Mind you, I have often had periods of time when I only had one kid in my Webelos den - other leaders tried to get me to combine with other groups for the duration, but I have learned something extremely valuable in my years working with children and specializing i

Life's tough as a pioneer! What you need is an optimal initial strategy based on the numbers of 2nd-4th graders, broken down by sex, in your pack. National doesn't have that. More importantly, National has no clue about factors that determine the success of your dens. All they would know is that each adult leader cleared a background check and they (or someone using their myscouting account) took some online training ... just enough to improve BSA's odds of a determination of due diligence in the event of litigation. National has no clue if this girl and three other boys are the best of f

Of course i asked the parents! They think it is ridiculous to keep this one girl in a den by herself. The only other girls that joined were Tigers, so it makes even less sense to put her in a mixed-rank den. I am actually over the top with communication to my parents. I am just here looking for guidance outside my own pack and council, whom I also asked about all this. This whole discussion is about how I can meet National guidelines and still allow this girl to have a full scouting experience.

Pure speculation. And yet this is exactly the kind of thing that people are hanging their hats on when saying that some "majority" thinks one thing or another. Can we at least stop with the idea that any one of us knows what the majority believes?

Popular support does not mean unanimous or even majority, but that said, even on this board it is the same few that are opposed. Just curious, if my experience tells me that there is popular support for this program, am I justified in calling you a liar because your experience is different? Am I justified if the my district and council's internal data shows popular support, am I justified in calling you a liar if yours doesn't? I disagree with National on a many issues, and at times I think they could screw just about anything up, but as a Scouter, I am beyond frustrated with Scouter

That's just not true. It's a popular opinion that girls should be in Scouting. How popular? I don't know. But it's not some small fringe group.

Its weird when the reddit community is the reasonable and uplifting one...

Agreed. I keep reading that no one wanted this. I guess when local scouters (myself included) were writing letters and making phone calls to advocate for this years ago, we just imagined doing all of that. When my committee sat around a table and did an informal "show of hands" poll of who was in favor of this and 7 out of 8 of us raised our hands, I guess that was just my imagination. The apparent notion that people wanting this simply don't exist is baffling. I don't have any data to show that it was the majority opinion, but I also don't see how anyone can believe that it being a popu

There's also the recurring complaint of not discussing plans for the exact plan of how the whole girls thing will work, but when the magazine starts talking about that subject suddenly it's too much on the plan for girls. there are times when I feel like the point of this forum is for people to complain.

Im getting more than a little tired of hearing the 'it's all lies" refrain. I have been hearing Scouters argue for girls in Scouting since I returned to Scouting almost a decade ago. I argued against it until the last 2-3 years. So this change has come from within, the drum beat has been steady and growing louder for some time. Maybe it has not been the call from the LDS community (though I know many that support it), it has been loud and growing in the other 80% of Scouting. Is it unanimous? Clearly not. Is it even the majority? I cannot tell you. But it has been a vocal and growing comm

This kind of is the big story right now. Not sure why anyone would expect any different coverage. In fact I think it would be weird if it were done any differently.

Those herders have it easy. Only two kittens! If only.

I've been trying the same thing with excessive Internet research on six-pack abs but so far, no luck. 😁

Great, now you have started a new fad of hernias. Very good point about increased internet use when researching something. I was about to make that same comment

I like your idea, @qwazse. We were talking about how to get some parents to help out more and I suggested putting them in a patrol and teach them the patrol method (nod to @Eagledad). Not only that but they'd start having some fun and might see scouts differently. I always told people that one really great thing about scouts is you can do something with your son, it's not just standing on the sideline or in the audience. As to the rest of this thread, let's at least get back to the topic of the BSA betting on girls. I don't think it will have a huge impact on numbers, based on what I've s

There’s also a theme of 1 family having multiple positions within the key 3.

So true!!! My wife does not want me out camping out in the woods with young females, for good reason. If I mess up and destroy my life by crossing the wrong female. I destroy my wife's life as well. I have to stay safe so that my wife can stay safe. I always have to think of what is best for both myself and my family.

Wood Badge is the Family Life MB of adult training. It's too much information for someone in their first year of Scouting and not enough useful information for someone in their fifth year. Naturally.

This was predicted on the forum back when the discussion of girls started. Sexism has been used on this forum lately when the discussion of females comes up. I don't think it's malicious either, I think they really believe it. The traditional program is so foreign to their perspective, the opposition must be personal. As the larger numbers of strong personalities with no youth scouting experience join, programs will change toward the vision of those leaders instead of the goals and vision of the BSA. It's a natural result. In the past, the BSA had enough experienced scouters to resi

Perhaps I am; one of the drawbacks of getting old and cantankerous. Or as Winnie the Pooh says, "Oh bother".

@qwazse - I was at the Ceremonies panel . . . Highlights . . . Crossover - only approved ceremony is to be conducted by OA which is done without regalia. OA can do a presentation separate from the Crossover, using regalia, but must be separate and distinct from Crossover OA cannot lend, regalia to Troop or pack so they can perform old ceremony instead of OA OA members cannot perform old ceremonies apart from OA using OA regalia Reasons: this is a public ceremony that is often recorded, and many of those recordings showed OA Lodges conducting ceremonies that w

Let's not claim that ALL scouters "who have been around for a while" are against it, insinuating that those who support it are new to the program and don't know better. I know of quite a number of people who have been in the program for 30, 40 or more years who support this. I also know some from that vintage who are against it.

This SM is definitely adding requirements to the SMC. Depending on where the campout is, I would be tempted to find out what time he will do the SMC and then just show up for that time. Then leave from the campout. That way, it is working within the time he has made available, but not consenting to the campout as a requirement. If I'm only there for the SMC and not the campout, then I'm not paying either. I would make it clear I'm showing up for the SMC only to jump through his hoop. I understand that this may not be possible if you have a conflict. But it's not right to add a campout as

Same issue for any and all religions. I stated in my initial post that I used Sunday for simplicity. I suggest that the burden/obligation rests most heavily on the individual. The larger the number with a shared obligation, then the more of an effort is made for incorporating the obligation into the program. A smaller number, as others have stated, requires the individuals to make the arrangements. The reality is that the burden of meeting obligations rest on the individual. Sometimes the leader can make accommodations without disrupting the rest of the participants, other time

With the passage of time, I'm confident that everyone in BSA will be in support or at least go along with these changes ... because those opposed will leave the movement. Voila - problem fixed!

But he's got the US Flag behind him....and a blue blazer with the BSA emblem and everything. Seems to be able to spin a tale, I might by a used car from him....

I would say most people in my area are in agreement with it, whether they sign up as adult leaders and support remains to be seen.

Its also likely fairly regional in the different opinions, so hard for anyone to estimate its exact popularity. I'm also appreciative of the idea that sometimes organizations have to change even its not what a majority of its current members want.

can you handle it when not everyone joins in your rage?

What minority? What data says that either opinion was the minority opinion?

I thought it was just me. Glad to hear I'm not alone. The majority of the photos, no matter what the topic had girls in them too. Overkill is the right word. Kind of like shoving the concept down our throats.

I'd just have her meet with the boys and call it a day. I would just make her a member of the boys den - no need for the technicality of being in her own den. Packs don't report den assignments to anyone. So putting her in her own den, but having her meet with the boys is a distinction without a difference. Going forward push for greater numbers in recruiting and work towards the goal of a separate girl and boy dens.

And I'm getting more than a little tired of BSA National claiming popular support for a divisive decision when they crafted a manipulated survey and distributed it selectively and won't reveal the results. Even in the non-LDS Scouting community, support is spotty at best. The backing of a loud minority does give one claim to popular support.

Yes - we would all like to see the data. But even if released, the survey was crafted to be so manipulative, designed to elicit only one response - any data from a survey like that would be pointless, in all reality. Can you at least give me room for rage over such an insulting process?

If Surbaugh wanted to be honest (not lie), he could at least acknowledge that this was a divisive decision driven by declining membership rather than hiding behind an insulting and manipulative survey. Wouldn't some honest discussion coming from the top be refreshing for a change?

Looking at the definition the word popular - can mean liked by many. This means its not a majority and many os one those marketing words that can mean more than 1. Lets be honest that a majority of scouters and scouts (boys) hate this idea of letting the girls in this part of scouting. All of us who have been around for a while see what has already started which is a change in the program and can't wait to get out and know that for the 10,000 girls we add we will have 100,000 unhappy boys.