Leaderboard

I would slightly differ in that view. BSA National and pretty much every interview CSE has had emphasized and at times over emphasized family. He talks about families doing things together, that families want programs they can do together, and that scouting can be the program they can do together. The surveys tell them family is key and they want to do things. As a family. One can infer that if the new families that come into Cubs with the family transition to Scouts, the expectation is the family will come along. Those of us that are dinosaur troops, all male leaders on outings, us

You keep asking that question and we answering it. The program changed a lot with the admittance of women leaders. There didn't appear to be a lot of changes from the outside, but it was obvious from the inside. As I've said several times (I believe to you, but I could be wrong), the massive training course changes in 2000 were largely a result of bringing women into the troop. Not because they were women, but because they had no Boy Scouting experienced. The BSA was so overwhelmed with un-experienced adult leaders that they had to rethink how to train them. And I think most of us who were le

Just came from a PLC last night where the PLC passed a "rule" that said only registered Scouts and adults could camp with the troop, and that only perspective Webelos looking to join could camp with the unit.

But that is CUB Scout, bot BOY Scouts. (caps for emphasis). Most 11-18 year old males want to get away from their parents and younger siblings. They want to do things on their own. The families going camping is one reason why my sons and several others are not happy with the troop. They had problems with siblings, as well as adults. An example form this weekend, PL is doing his assigned job at a fundraiser, and one of the parents tells him to stop what he is doing and get back to work. Thankfully I was there and told him to ignore the parent and SPL's instructions. Agree

@Mattosaurus, whatever you do you need to be honest. You skipped a step. No biggie but you do need to own up to it as other people have advised. The Guide to Advancement (the book Scouters are supposed to consult when they have advancement questions) allows for instances such as yours. Contact your Eagle Coach today, as well as the district rep. Let them know your issue and your project timeline. In most instances they will be happy to approve your completed form, but they will advise you on your next steps. Document your interaction with them via email and confirm both in wr

As an engineer, this is data I can dig into and appreciate. I would like to see what the graphs look like minus the Indonesia influence. Why can't BSA National treat us like grown-ups and share such statistical motivations, rather than concoct manipulative surveys as a pretext for a predetermined outcome?

For reference and enjoyment, this snapshot by WOSM may serve: https://issuu.com/worldscouting/docs/wsbero-membership_report_2013 What's relevant to us, is that Scouts UK had not recovered its market penetration, but compared to 2007, it had "turned the corner" and was gaining market share. It is reasonable to expect that it has continued that trend. However, it probably has a few years to gain the share of boys. On the other hand, BSA's program(s) has lost market share at an alarming rate over the same period. Anyone worried about losing boys nationwide, that ship has sailed. A

If given a choice between multiple options, I believe that my son's choices would be all-male scout camps, co-ed church, and co-ed YMCA type camps. As the only all-male alternative has gone away, it no longer provides a different experience than the other two. At this point, I'm thinking my son would opt for the church's Bible camp. It's outdoors, program focused and all-male off the table and all-male is no longer a choice issue and drops off the options list as it has in all other aspects in today's society. If there were other all-male options out there and it was important to him, it w

The issue with summer camps changing program... I hope so. Most camp programs are merit badge factories with youths actung as mb counselors. The boys have lost out on a real camp experience long before the idea of having girls as members. Let's not pretend that all is perfect and the change to allow girls in the program will weaken it. The loss of the patrol method, mb factories, eagle mills are well entrenched in the current paradigm. We have had a far from perfect program for many years. It wasn't the gays, girls or godless that did that.

This isn't an experience I recognise at all. My experience is that the types of boys and girls who will get involved in, for want of a better word, "drama" simply don't have the motivation to be scouts in the first place. The handful that do turn up don't last long at all. That attitude doesn't fit and the rest of the troop doesn't tolerate it. Yes there are some differences in what boys and girls like in the same ways that there are differences in what the older and younger scout like but it's not so different as to disrupt things. It can lead to debate in the PLC or in troop forums but

The level of speculation in this thread is astonishing. Now we are up to, what happens if the admission of girls (which has just barely started, and in only one of the two programs in which it will occur) does not work and the BSA tries to change back, what will happen then and what if someone sues? Perhaps we should next consider if, after all of this happens, a huge asteroid collides with the Earth and destroys all life on our little planet. What will the BSA's policy be then? I mean, if you're going to speculate, you may as well speculate.

And yet I have seen documents speaking of "Family Scouting dens" by which they mean girl dens. That doesn't make any sense to me. It is yet another example of the BSA throwing around the phrase "Family Scouting" to mean different things - and none of them really correct, because they are only adding girls. "Family Scouting" would mean, at least, adding parents and girls - and they do not seem to be increasing the role of parents in the program. They are opening membership in certain programs to girls. That is what they should say.

and that was an initial concern... when girls show up, but the numbers are small... National will change the program to "fix" that problem, and now we're no longer talking about "girls doing the same program the boys have done" as was pitched. There will be changes to the program to meet girls needs, something we were told repeatedly simply doesn't exist, that girls and boys have the same interests and are basically the same person, with the same needs. (this is of course my speculation based on my observations)

The only difference I see is that men have experience in being boys and women don't. That can be both a positive thing and a negative thing, but there is a difference. It is through training that we can help both experienced and inexperienced adults of both sexes deliver the program. Even training is no guarantee of good leadership. We have all seen lousy "experienced" leaders and great "inexperienced" leaders. There is certainly a spectrum. I will argue that in my experience the vast majority of helicopter parents are female. Maybe that's just in my local area, but I'd wager it is close

Exactly. It is already happening...perhaps National is just recognizing the trend and embracing it. Maybe the "Helicopters have just landed" and I have been out maneuvered!

To be clear, as of 2/13/2018 and at 10:04 EST, as we may understand the basic intent of the decision to allow Girls into the Cubs and Scouts; Cub units do have the option to remain single gender. Also as faintly outlined there will be Girl Troops, so current Male only Boy Scout Troops will remain as such, so not really an option for Girls to join a current troop. That is of course subject to change based on a potential future survey given to people not involved in scouting at this time at the whim of BSA National (results will not actually be presented to the general public only the feed

If I understood what you're saying, yes, it would be food for thought. Something lost in translation I think, sorry for my lack of understanding. I think what 'Skip is saying is that when he does get drama queens, of either gender, turning up, they either change/act differently, as his troop is not the place for drama, or they leave, for the same reasons. The rest of the kids just carry on in scouting. Why kids leave in the UK is for all sorts of reasons, not sure many of them are gender related. I have no evidence either way though. Yes, boys and girls are different, but you know what? B

That's just it, did youth have any say in the new policy? In my neck of the woods, the ones I talk to are against it. Don't know how many youth took the heavily biased for girls survey. Also do not know what the results of the membership survey was, but considering that those results have not been published by BSA, I do not believe the majority of those polled were in favor.

@Mattosaurus First, your Eagle Project sounds great. My wife and I have participated in similar food packs and the experience was rewarding and fun for the volunteers in addition to providing desperately needed nourishment. I completely agree with Backpack. Work to rectify the documentation as quickly as possible. Admit you missed this requirement and already started collecting the funds. I don’t believe you would run into an issue unless there are significant concerns regarding your fundraising method. Talking with my father who runs EBORs there are frequent paperwork issues.

Having attended summer camp (multiple times) with my daughters and Boy Scout camp (multiple times) with my son, I can tell you from personal experience that what defines a good camp experience differs widely between boys and girls. The format of the two camp programs is dramatically different. I could go into specifics, but some here would surely label my observations as sexist. Nevertheless, these differences are very real. My daughters would not enjoy many of the things my son loves about camp, and vice-versa. Also from person experience, I can tell you that the behavior and focus of bo

Teenage boys act very different when they are around an all male group and a coed group. The social interactions of the group are different. I've witnessed this with activities between Scouts and JROTC with my son. Zip lining with an all male troop is different than zip lining with JROTC. While the activity is the same, the behavior and mannerisms of the boys are very different.

I don't disagree. But if they wanted to make a splash, why not use the venue of World Jamboree 2019 to announce a fully-baked program instead of this botched rollout. The manipulative surveys, the deceptive information meetings, the predetermined outcome, and the lack of details (rest assured it will be amazing) ... I'm trying to think how BSA National could have actually done this *worse*.

Okay, I'm a history teacher and let's try this on to see if it fits. At one point sports was an all-male activity. The first Olympics didn't have any females. So over the past "few" years, that has changed. And it did so incrementally. I suppose there was some hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth when women first began to compete in a "few" more genteel competitions. Then some crept in even before the BC/AD timeline. Over time more and more were added on an ever increasing pace until we reach today. But then along with women's sports, women's involvement in technology, industry and a

If we end up with girl only troops, well that will be fantastic and I do not see that hurting boy troops at all, I can agree with you on that. I think BSA will do fine if they stick to that plan.

(Moderator hat on) The discussion in this thread has gotten a little too personal (and not in a good way.) Let's please ALL take a "step back" (not a "step down") and remember to direct your remarks at the issue and the posts of others, and not the others themselves.

As to your comment in red, I think that's an odd statement. *I* am a long-time Scouting volunteer AND the father of a daughter, so I make your statement true. But that's not what we are talking about. We are saying that NEW volunteers are allegedly going to come from 1) parents of only girls who are new joiners to the program, b) parents of boys in the program who will now have girls in the program and all of sudden will now want to volunteer, or c) people who have never volunteered who will miraculously all of a sudden want to volunteer. I think the most likely pool is either a or c, but I wo

Why don't you ask my three daughters if I am anti-female before you start slinging that slur. I am as heavily engaged in their parenting and development as I am for my son. However, I am experienced enough to appreciate the differences between boys and girls when it comes to a unique program like Scouting. And those differences don't just disappear because of politically-correct derision.

This just makes me sad and also illustrates why it is so difficult for some troops to run effectively--parents don't know the culture and wont learn it because they are too busy trying to change it to what they want.

This is what I wanted in woodbadge. They could bring this back and a week in the woods doing training would be wonderful. Not much needs to be written.

Your training in Wisconsin has a bit of a reputation in my neck of the woods. See how that works? For the record, if you trimmed off the coastline of CA and let it fall into the ocean all that "specialness" in CA would magically go away.

You gotta look those folks in the face and clearly state

Family camping was the "camel's nose in the tent" that led to coed Cub Scouts. And according to BSA's documents, family camping is allowed for Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Venturers. And we already face folks pushing "family camping" on the boy scout level.

@WisconsinMomma, Eagle Coaches are a fairly new addition to the process. They aren't essential, although they probably are a little more useful than strangers on the internet! @Mattosaurus, I would still have you complete the application. Just explain that this process got rolling before you realized there was paperwork to file. It won't hurt your prospects in the least. And, it will give your council a better sense of how things get done in your neck of the woods. The main thing that council wants to know is that you are paying attention to how things should be done and acting accordingl

It it is really large print and denotes Family Scouting If BSA National had only meant CUBS,then logically it would have said that. That which is not specifically excluded is assumed to be included

And when/if the girls do not show up in the desired numbers, the geniuses at National will continue changing the program to make it more girl-friendly - because that is where Scouting's future lies. No matter the boys who will be driven away in the process.

Yeah...that big giant FAMILY is not really clear what it applies to. We can infer and assume all we want but (as has been well noted) the message is a bit muddled. The decision was made to admit girls to the program, rather than sell that, let's sell families, everybody loves that!!

I am certain that it's not only women who are helicopter parents, there are male helicopters too, and you all probably know at least a few. I certainly know a few.

That's why Family Scouting isn't being applied to the troop level. I think the BSA is handling this part of things well, limiting Family Scouting to age 10 and under.

Nobody's going to freak out over this. The beneficiary is effectively fundraising for the project. In the description, state that the beneficiary has already set up a special collection for this project and is raising funds for it on its own website. A fine point (in case you haven't done this), some Africans restrict their diet out of religious devotion. So, you may want to label meals that contain pork/alcohol vs. those that don't. I'm not sure if you're also collecting halal ingredients. But if you do, take the trouble to note that on your packaging. It will mean a lot to the recipient

Agreed. The most aggressive Troops in my area plan to go full coed (paper Troops if necessary), #3 definitely true. Based on a message on Facebook group I am a member of, the buzzfeed article and quotes from my local council spokeswoman #5 is already in process. Also, I’ve seen several coed countries remove the local option after an initial launch and require all units to go coed (other than for religious reasons) so #4 is likely in a few years. I think a great topic is #6. What does the BSA need to do to meet the needs of today’s youth while making it fun and cool to join? Some

But that’s just it ... BSA *does* want to appeal to these new types of Scouts and these new types of Scouters. That is what Family Scouting is all about. Girls are the source of increased membership (in the eyes of BSA National leadership). Thus changes will be made to summer camp and advancement programs as they chase membership increases. They will claim these changes are what families demand. Thus, it will be exactly like Y camp that tries to appeal to everyone with all interests. And as the program keeps changing to better accommodate Family Scouting, it will be the boys - not the gir

OK, but then your daughters are not likely signing up for Boy Scout summer camp. It is fair to assume that anyone that does so, self-selects because they do enjoy the same things about camp. In this way, Boy Scout camp need not really change. The girls that want to join and attend camp are self-selecting for the sort of activities that we already offer. This isn't like a summer Y camp that has to try and appeal to everyone with all interests.

How is fudging it Scout like? That’s pretty bad advice. A scout should follow the rules and the process.

Thanks 'Skip. That cuts both ways. Being unisex is not what caused your boys to leave your program, but going co-ed didn't bring those boys back. Over here in the land of quick fixes, our P-R guys are trying to couch this move as a boon to membership (more family friendly, simplified for single parents, etc ...), when a real leader will admit that it is hazarding the loss of some seasoned leaders.

How so, can you elaborate? The "entire experience?" I think of the activities my son has had at Boy Scout camp and I can't think of a single thing about his experience that would have changed in any meaningful way. Hiking, just the same. Rappelling, just the same. Campfire activities, just the same. Religious service, just the same. Kayaking, Totin' Chip, Woodcarving, Horsemanship, Wilderness Survival, Rifle Shooting, again just the same. All camps are not made alike so perhaps the activities at your local camp are different but even after having gone

Yes agree. IMO they wanted girl "Boy Scouts" at Jambo 2019 and to be there, those girls needed time to meet the same attendance prerequisites as boys.

I'm being realistic, not cynical ... In their rush to make an announcement about girls in Scouting, I don't think BSA National leadership had even begun to think through the myriad of issues such as these. Forget about half-baked - they haven't even put it in the oven yet. Why announce something as significant as a new girls program when they can't even describe what it will look like? They are making this up as they go along. It is a move of desperation, and it is a reflection of their incompetence (in my opinion).

I am talking about BSA and troop culture not whatever you think I meant.

Michael B. Surbaugh CES expressed some very anti-co-ed feelings at the national jamboree, he said things like a "single sex program was very important to boys development" and we would NOT be going co-ed. Maybe Michael should step back or step down. . .

My personal opinion is the program will change dramatically, not so much by admitting girls, but from the adults that will join as a result of all the membership changes. Most of the adults will have very little understanding or experience with Patrol Method, so while it will be set up in the spirit of the handbooks, the adults won't let it process toward the design intention of the method. The adults that do know will be few and far between. If they don't know what they are looking for, they won't know how to drive toward it. Barry