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Showing content with the highest reputation on 02/08/18 in all areas

  1. 4 points
  2. 3 points
    We went through a period of district dysfunction. Some SPLs got together and planned multi-troop campouts with learning events and intrapatrol competition. Soon the district events were all boy planned.
  3. 3 points
    Thanks all for the quick feedback. It certainly helped. We had a meetup, only the 2nd one, scheduled for yesterday evening to discuss the project. Quite a bit of course correction was achieved. As Oldscout448 brought up, I took a closer look at the BSA safety guidelines. For the scout's age, he is able to use a 'screwdriver (electric)', so that opened up doing assembly for him. In the meeting, I told the scout, I'll wrap up the assembly model (was nearly complete already) and I'll pass on a pdf of the assembly model and an exploded view of the cart. The rest of the piece drawings and determining how much plywood, selecting hardware, is in your wheelhouse, as it is your project. I'm here for assistance and questions when you have them. Also, dad brought up and asked if the scout could be here during the cutting. A definite change from him during the first meet. Told him, "Of course, he must be, its his project. He'll be the one prepping and lining things up to cut, I'll show him how. I'm here to do the things he cannot. Specifically, that's using the saw and router. This is his project, I'm here to assist." Feel better about the direction its going now. Now, whether this is substantial enough for an Eagle project, I still question. Also, I did intend to ask for and look through his project workbook, however he didn't bring it to the meet. And one asked who contacted me first, it was the parent who first contacted me about this project, not the scout. We'll see how it goes... And I do recall this commercial, Mazda's "Dogs ... love ... trucks". What about it?! Lol PS: For background, I was only in BSA for 3 years. Dropped out, as all we did were arts and crafts projects, since the den leader was a mom.
  4. 3 points
    Paper applications are now being accepted. Most of the girls were able to register online but the. BSA payment system seems flaky after a couple of the parents spent hours using various browsers. One parent said they checked their CC bill and found the BSA had charged them 8 x $33 ($264) (once for each attempt to register). She said she is sure the BSA will refund the money ...🙄 There is an article online with our major paper and I’m working with them so they spell our Pack number correctly. The council is having the other Pack lead the media effort and I’m perfectly content. I think most members in our Pack fall into the category that adding girls is fine... but I don’t think they are looking to be the center of media attention or lead any crusade. One challenge we are now facing. We have three girls who are twin sisters of existing Pack members (all Tigers). Our Tiger den is 26 Scouts. A couple of them have been going to Pack and den meetings but are not members of the Pack. They would like to join but the parents are too busy for more den meetings (for the girls den). So we have started discussions of adding a second girl den, this one dedicated to Tiger girls that would meet same time and place as the boys. My thought is that we can actually provide more separation between the boys and girls as I’ll have another den leader attend and work with them separately. The adult partner will be there for both their kids. Nothing official yet, but we are discussing it.
  5. 2 points
    I picked up a 1929 second printing of the Handbook for Patrol Leaders off ebay from an estate sale. I guess this is what happens when people buy lots of books from estate sales. The book is in really good condition except for missing the front page and single tear on the foreword from James West. In the back was the a small signature. Through my super sleuthing (i.e. Google) I found that book most likely belonged to a Japanese boy named Jiro. He was born in 1919 and passed away in 2016. Born and raised in Southern California and sadly was interned in a Japanese camp during WWII. I feel a lot more connected to the book, imagining a small 11 year old Japanese boy thumbing through the book 88 years ago. I showed the book to my scouts last night, only letting my SPL look through it because I trusted him to be careful. His eyes were so wide reading it.
  6. 2 points
    Update: of 17 Tigers 10 will be awarded the rank. 4 never showed up after recruitment and 3 didn't show up but a couple of times. AND I can call em all by name too.
  7. 2 points
    Parents and Volunteering: Some don't volunteer because they don't understand the program. Some don't because they want to understand the program but their unit can't/won't explain it to them. Some don't because district and council resources are focused elsewhere other than training and "on boarding" new parents. Some don't because it takes away from their "me" time. Some don't because they are simply too busy running the rest of their family. Some just can't (physical, emotional, psychological reasons). Some just won't. Some do and jump right in. Some eventually do and jump in later. Some won't because of unit leader issues. I am sure this group could come up with more. Point is that "baby sitting" is the most obvious reason because the people who do it don't try to hide it and often brag about what they did while others were watching and engaging with their kid. That's why it is usually the first excuse Scouters go to. Nothing personal.
  8. 2 points
    When I was a cub leader I remember it was hard work prepping for many meetings. I knew we had some single parents with multiple kids and limited time. All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game. Maybe they brought snacks for one meeting, or they made some phone calls to set up a field trip, or led one activity for a portion of one meeting, or knew somebody who knew somebody for a good show and tell at a den meeting. Some could do more than others but everyone should do something. What I think what some scouters get frustrated by are the folks who blow by the den meeting in some expensive car, are heavily involved in their social thing (around here it is some social climbing Gasparilla crewe that demands a lot of time and money), and never return any communications if we leaders had a question. I had a few parents that seemed to feel either (1) BSA somehow payed me or (2) I was a real dope and if I was willing to be their baby sitter by all means they would take advantage of it --in other words I was "the hired help". I had more than one parent who used the den meeting time for extra-martial hooking up time but you find that out later after things have blown up. Those parents were frustrating because they often seemed to ignore their boys and I would feel I really had a duty to work with them. And there are some parents who just seem clueless that things just magically happen.
  9. 2 points
    That's pretty much where I am. Sort of like watching them bulldoze your familys old farmhouse to make way for some new condos. You know that it's 180 years old, in bad shape and it doesnt belong to you anymore. But it's still too painful to watch. You would rather the memories of fun,love and laughter not be mixed with shattering beams and rubble to be trucked away to the landfill.
  10. 2 points
    If you want to talk about how hard it is just ask any male on campus. We are assumed guilty in everything. People snark at you because of your race or religion. These are the same people wearing T-shirt’s or pins with all sorts of inclusive messages. They just don’t apply if you’re a male or white or catholic or Jewish or a frat member. Sad irony.
  11. 2 points
    There was an outstanding program on NPR about this very topic a few days ago: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/637/words-you-cant-say
  12. 2 points
    The BabySitters of America phenomenon existed long before Family Scouting.
  13. 2 points
    There's a reason why I omit the f- word doublespeak from my posts. It's BSA4G that's in demand. For the past two decades, I've met girl after girl who broke ranks with their friends who prefer "glamping" to proudly participate in the BSA via any door that was open to them. None of those young women have said, "Please, Mr. Q, may I bring mom and dad along?"
  14. 2 points
    Yes, I agree with you about the "too much US and THEM" on this forum. Very often when reading everyone's definitive answers I can't help but think of The Dude's quote from The Big Lebowski: "Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
  15. 2 points
    (and adhere to the rules) <<<<<<< This part. I would be surprised if Phimont is not teaching them, but for those who have never spent time in the back country it is questionable if it will take root. Not to mention, what they forget about and leave in their vehicles.
  16. 2 points
    If you are offended by something that TV sensors deemed non offense 4 decades ago, well sorry. You calling all things District, Council and National bad/evil, is no different than people calling all teachers incompetent or all coaches and priest pedophiles. Painting with such broad stroke gets a lot of people messy that don't deserve it.
  17. 2 points
    Ok, has an old Eagle Scout father of two Eagle Scouts and a professional cabinet maker the last 30 years this rather intrigues me. as I looked at the power tool guidelines if he's 14 years old he is allowed to use a drill I don't see why he can't use a drill in the Kreg Jig. If that's beyond his capabilities you could at least screw the screws in you can if he can't use a power screwdriver. The Scout or Scouts should be doing everything possible that they are allowed to do. The things they cannot do they should at least be acting as helpers for example If I were doing the cutting on a table saw I would have that Scout standing on the receiving end of the saw out feed table just picking up the pieces of wood and putting them in the appropriate piles. You should be doing the absolute minimum amount of work possible. As for the drawings I was turning out rough sketches at the age of 13 finished mechanical drafting by age 15 architectural work by 18 there's no reason he can't learn how to do this Oh by the way, a drawer isn't that hard it's basically a small box with a bottom
  18. 1 point
    "All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game." And as a youth participant he does. I did not sign up to be part of the program, but my son's interest does endorse him as having "skin in the game." I can also assure you that on a teacher's salary, we don't have an expensive car. And in the interest of our son, we do answer all questions pertaining to his scout activity. We don't need to do things for "the den". As part of his home-schooling, he has a ready audience for any presentations he may make on the various nature and historical opportunities he has with his family. I hear all the time on this forum, the boys should be running the show and my son is well on his way to figuring out what that means. As a qualified K-12 teacher, my expertise is HS history, Does anyone really want me to put on a presentation for 3-4th graders? Not likely. Do they want my son to bring in shells from the beaches, special plants and old airplanes he's taken pictures of? After all, it's his interest and his program. I don't make a very good helicopter parent nor do I want to participate in the hassle of those who are.
  19. 1 point
  20. 1 point
    Yup, we've been doing that for a long while now. We invite troops and packs to camp with us, offer our OA team for crossovers and other events, put on events for packs and even host inter-troop competitions where the patrols compete en masse rather than troop v. troop. This has been very successful on a number of fronts for us. I know your council well if it is the one I am thinking of. Love BDSR. Great camp. I'd flippin' move there in a heartbeat.
  21. 1 point
    I tend to agree. But at the same time, it is explicitly intended and stated that scouts are given wide latitude in what type of project is acceptable. We don't to put too many limits on the scout or the country will be buried under the weight of a million picnic tables. From what I've seen, the projects that do have trouble at their eagle board of review are as above. The scout heavily depends on one person or an external resource or essentially gives up control of their project. Perhaps that should be an evaluation criteria? Will the scout be in control of his own project? Will the scout have the understanding and involvement such that he's influencing the detailed execution of the project. If he's not, it could be argued it's not his project or that he's just contracting out the project. We just don't want that.
  22. 1 point
    I'm not saying fix the district. I'm saying ignore them and work around them, much like what @TAHAWK saw. I'm not talking first step, I'm talking only step. Make the world a little better. Get a couple of SPLs together to plan their own events. If your PLC is up for helping another troop have an ASPL work with an SPL from another troop that would like to see how to do it right. I'm in Northern Colorado. We're wondering when our council is going to get folded into the Denver Area Council (they have big donors). Our council is so broke they're thinking of having weddings at our scout camp. Imagine the bride, at the outhouse. Yeah, this is really going to happen. I have no idea what the Denver council is like.
  23. 1 point
    A heartwarming story. Troop 2 from Bronxville, NY recently awarded the Eagle Scout rank to 96 Year Old Eugene Cerniglia. Eugene completed all the requirements for the rank of Eagle Scout while he was a youth, but when the time came for his board of review most of his troop had enlisted in the military. He petitioned to receive his Eagle Scout in the 1960s and 1980s with no success. Recently, when he came across his Scouting materials he made one last attempt. By providing evidence corroborated by public sources and attending Scout meetings for several months, Eugene was awarded Eagle in January 2018, one month before his 97th birthday. Troop 2 claims Eugene is the oldest Eagle Scout ever (likely correct). Court of Honor video here: http://www.bronxvilletroop2.com/World-Record-Eagle-Court-of-Honor.html
  24. 1 point
    Sadly my first district was like that. No knots or beads, you were ignored. Fortunately a friend with knots and beads was on the committee, and would repeat my ideas a little later and they were brilliant. We both got a laugh about that. In my neck of the woods, over the past 20 years we have declined. partially due to the "In School Scouting units." But once that mess was cleaned up, we have continued to decline. Of the traditional that were around when quit being a DE: all 4 of the units I started no longer exist, (2 packs and 2 troops) 4 additional packs folded 2 troops folded 2 packs switched COs (1 prior to DALE, the other after the membership policy changed) 1 troop switched COs (troop affiliated with a pack above) As for district committee, it is a joke. Last comm. meeting was 2 people: me and the DE. We don't really have anyone else. We lost a loty of support with the membership policy change. And no one is stepping up to the plate. To make matter worse, we share a DE with another district. I already tendered my resignation on the committee: may 3rd,
  25. 1 point
    We can use your help. What job do you want? I promise you nobody will give you grief or tell you what to do. There are not enough people to do that. We end all of our roundtables by having an after meeting at a bar. If you like beer we have a lot of brew pubs in town. It's very laid back. Do you want to help crews? Training? Help packs recruit? Name it! We can use your help. Can you make tonight? I have heard of the woodbadger mentality you talk about. I have seen it and I appreciate your, um, how can I say this, disappointment with it. I took woodbadge and got a few things out of it but it certainly didn't impress me. So there you have two extremes, the old boy clique (dead weight) and ready to turn out the lights (a vacuum). It's easier to walk into a vacuum and make things happen. My challenge is keeping it small because I'll be doing most of it. Dead weight is harder. This is an aspect of leadership that is not taught at woodbadge. You have to carve off something that nobody can butt in on. A troop or crew is exactly that and that's what you appear to be doing. There are other ways to do this. If there are other troops or crews in the same situation as you why not have a campout where all of you come together and do something fun? You don't have to call it a camporee but it essentially is. What can the council/district do? If you want to encourage scout leadership and require all PLs to do something before hand, then do it. You've now replaced the camping chair and training. And nobody can get in your way. I know, it's not very scout like. But if half the troops/crews in your district decide to join you then you've got something.
  26. 1 point
    @cocomax I will say naming a thread "the current moral panic" is a good attention grammar. You should write listicles for the internet. A dutch oven disaster on a campout could have a thread "dutch holocaust survivors tell chilling tale of starvation in the woods". I do ramble a bit, sorry.
  27. 1 point
    Point of clarification. While it might be an issue of integrity to some/many, it should not be considered an issue of either safety or questionable activities inside the business. While the feds can't seem to make up their mind on this topic, the state has deemed it legal and is heavily regulating it. There is no reason to assume that the customers that visit that store are any more dangerous or have a desire to be any more questionable than the person that goes to the local grocery store (where they are likely selling GS cookies) to buy a bottle whiskey.
  28. 1 point
    OK, question after the new YPT training. Older training referred to preference to having to adults for two-deep. but now it say two adults. What does that do for the transportation issue of having scouts in cars going to campouts or meetings? Does that mean you need two adults in the vehicle? Many times it has been 1 adult and 4 youth in a vehicle.
  29. 1 point
    But you can't change anything at the district or council level. Why? Old Men's and Women's Club. The WB'ers run everything and if you're not a WB'er then your ideas stink. Or you volunteer, spend hours getting your good ideas put together and supported by the unit only to have some district or council leader poo-poo the idea and literally force you to do it their way. I could go on and on and on. So that's why many of us, myself included, have stopped doing anything for the district. They are like parasites. They will latch on to you and drain you of your energy without any benefit to you or your unit. So I choose to focus on my unit and make it as good as it can be. I am sure there are good councils and districts out there. I am not fortunate enough to live in one of those areas. Having tried repeatedly to help "fix" things, I realize it is a futile effort and not worth my time and effort.
  30. 1 point
    Indeed puzzling. Making me wonder like @Back Pack whether this is the death knell for Venturing. I am have been hearing rumblings from national and council staff, when asked about things related to Venturing, that "That doesn't matter right now." When someone tells me recruiting (aka, making more money for national and boosting membership numbers) "doesn't matter" when related to Venturing -- but they are pushing it like crack to Cub and Boy Scout units -- is very, very telling.
  31. 1 point
    My recommendation is for us volunteers to get re-engaged at the district level. If you really want to improve tbe,program in your area, this is where to do it. Get involved with district program, camping, training, or membership. Sure, skip the finance part. The BSA is supposed to be volunteer led, professionally guided. I'd worry less about what the council employees are saying and just do the right thing for the units in your area. Maybe we use this forum as a place to brainstorm how to do that?
  32. 1 point
    I am finding out this process is dragging and dragging. I noticed on my BeAScout page the option of Boy or Boy/Girl and so when I approached the council about it ( I am a DC) they said they aren't activating any units yet. They are testing one and only one for now. I know in September when I go and do my recruiting for Cub Scouts I am going to have some bites from girls.
  33. 1 point
    Should be registered and titled under the name of the CO.
  34. 1 point
    I noticed that too. It is new with the latest software update. It is indeed cool. It is also much easier now to get parts of quotes from a post to go in different boxes in the reply so you can put your response to each part of the post under the part you are referring to.
  35. 1 point
    Social media is basically a screaming match where the loudest voices win and only the most invested in a viewpoint participate.
  36. 1 point
    In sort of chronological order ... No more Eagle, old guys. Bird Study? Bye Bye. It's for boys, so make it school. Bookwork MB's have them drool. Girl, Godless, Gay? Don't say! SCOTUS: "National, have your way!" Achievement? Bah! Identity! Drop the First Class Journey. Uniform the committee. Fancy knots in rows of three. YPT? That lawyer's fee! Secret files are so scary! No adult? Stay at home! Camping kids go on their own. Explorers camping. Really? Call them Venturers, set them free! NESA's Eagle promos grind. There's one on Silver! "Never Mind!". Older ventures, that's not fine. Twenty-one can't be the line. Paperwork for all adults. MBC's must join the cult! Girl Scouts, where are you? "Find us flushies." Boo hoo. First class ladies: "Help us please!" Old farts: "They make us sneeze!" The World Jamboree's coming. Don't blow it! Scouting's co-eds are cool, and they show it! Even Saudi and Pakistan know it. We'll be fine.
  37. 1 point
    That is always the problem girls or not. I had 20 Tigers in one den and had to operate a month before I had a ADL (who was the US Attorney where I lived so like his time was pretty precious) would step up just to help me with crowd control. In Cub Scouts you have to twist arms...hard!
  38. 1 point
    Far too often people only listen enough to figure out how to respond instead of listening to understand the perspective of others. This is not limited to one side or the other.
  39. 1 point
    I just think this rescue in Australia is cool. Lifeguards launched the drone, steered it towards the swimmers and dropped a “rescue pod” into the water, where it expanded so the swimmers could grab it and swim to shore. The rescue took just 70 seconds. The two swimmers were exhausted but unharmed. Drone cost $343,000. More info here. Does Philmont use drones? Other than for STEM, I wonder if any BSA camps are using drones.
  40. 1 point
    So popcorn sales outside a liquor store, smoke shop, or adult book/movie store would be good in your book? Legal commercial activity? Yes. Fitting with the program? No.
  41. 1 point
    While this is a very cool experience, there are still dangers at base camp. I've seen rattlers and bear in camp, and bear protocol in base camp is required as a result. I think it was 2016 they had to put down 3-4 bear that year, one of which was a repeat offender (I think it was the old 3-legged bear) that kept coming in to base camp looking for freebies. I would hope that the families get the same training (and adhere to the rules) that the visiting crews do. Otherwise I think I just heard BSA's insurance rates going up.
  42. 1 point
    I would imagine that the use of a camper is similar to the use of a cabin. There'd likely have to be a clear adults area and a clear kids area, with all the requisite YPT considerations thrown in. As pointed out, it would not count toward OA or Camping MB or TFC.
  43. 1 point
    I wish we could quote the upvote/reactions, lol. @ItsBrian You gave the post above a confused vote, @.40AET is referencing an old 1981 movie called Stripes. The vehicle in the photo posted by @Jameson76 is the fictitious "Urban Assault Vehicle" from that movie that John Winger (Bill Murray) commandeered to for a joy ride, and ends up Czechoslovakia to save his platoon mates, as well as Sgt Hulka, aka the Big Toe. It's a reference us old farts quickly recognize.
  44. 1 point
    Is it a cool Urban Assault Vehicle ?? That would be really cool
  45. 1 point
    They can use whatever they want. The question is should they? if they do should it be counted towards camping nights? (and I am sure there are a few more questions). I would say if they are going to be 3 days in a state park, they should pitch tents unless there are extenuating circumstances as to why not. I would add, that I would not count that towards camping nights. I can see some situations where I would be in favor of a camper. For example, a group traveling across country to Philmont. If they are pushing very long days driving in order to get there, I can see a camper (we used gyms from hosting troops.) It makes more sense logistically. But not for an extended stay in the a State Park
  46. 1 point
    The boys interviewed in that piece look thrilled...
  47. 1 point
    Yup. This mirrors what we seen locally. Our RTs are boring and the waste of paper on the announcements table would make a recyclist have a seizure. When it was suggested that all of that paper could be sent via pdf or posted easily online, the DC said, "Then what would our DE do?". Someone quipped, "Train UCs or visit units in trouble to actually help them?". That unit was given the graveyard location for popcorn sales and the "rough neighborhood" for SFF. They stopped participating in SFF, popcorn and FOS as a result.
  48. 1 point
    You seems to dismiss from the calculation all the work of all the Scouters and Cubbers in their units, without which there would be no paperwork to push. Unless you drink the "hour a week" Kool Aid, that effort exceeds all paid hours, even if including hours devoted to raising funds for council, by orders of magnitude. Our new SE says only units Scouting counts. One hopes. Ending the scandal of Council merit badge mills and rationalizing paperwork requirements would reduce the "Eagle paperwork" load that you mention. Camp? In our council, and many others (each of our bordering councils to my personal knowledge - and often participation), volunteers put in thousands of hours a year for camp upkeep, often buying the materials out of their own funds and supplying almost all the tools. many are Union tradesmen - "professionals" in the correct sense of the word. Camp McKinley, near us and used for its own summer camp by a troop I volunteered with, had a $0 maintenance and operating budget for three years and no ranger. Yet the camp emerged in tremendously good condition. Mere volunteers. They renewed the septic bed BY HAND. It was the "home" of a district and used heavily on weekends for camping (All sites in use often.). They WOULD NOT let the camp fall to pieces, council to the contrary notwithstanding. In 2017 I put in over 400 hours recruiting volunteers for summer camp program, and served over 300 hours at camp delivering that program with dozens of other mere volunteers. We had no camp ranger at our council Scout summer camp for five months last year after the incumbent ranger, very good with fixing but poor with people (especially his superiors on the TofO), was discharged. (There was also his habitual, loud and public use of the "F word" to modify "Scouter or "Scouters." By using the camp, Scouters and their units necessarily added to his work load, unlike the WIlderness Engineers who replace roofs and place pipelines. Ideally, we would have gotten the Camp in great shape and then closed the gate.) I was with the same troop in my present council for 25 years. I never once saw a council employee at the troop for any purpose. (I did the FOS presentations.) I did see them as a district volunteer and I did ask the two ladies at the Service Center front desk (Who knew everything bureaucratic that was worth knowing) how to do some stuff. ( I miss one - just deceased - terribly, but the other happily came back after "retirement" to soldier on for a few more years.) I valued several council employees. Got to actually know only a few as they left so quickly and spent so little time with the district or unit Scouters. One I did know is perhaps my best Scouting friend since my old patrol. He retired at 25 years - earliest possible. In short, all in all, council employees have not been a big part of my Scouting since 1981. The same was true from 1954-1967 in California. The California troop was eighteen years old when BSA arrived out there. My longest hitch here was with a troop also founded in 1908 and four year old when BSA arrived in what became the Greater Cleveland District. Scouting without B.S.A. As a district leader I had a choice of who to rely upon on issues of health at district events - a mere volunteer with a PhD in microbiology and another PhD in Public Health (Later worked for the WHO) or any of the DEs who passed through in an average of weeks. Pioneering events? George, who ran the pioneering at CanJam last year, or a newly-minted DE? Legal issues? The people who said I should report abuse only to the SE (In fairness, that bizarre direction came from National.), or the Ohio Revised Code, with which I, at least, was professionally aware? I could go on. We are relatively weak on bureaucracy, but, some of us, professional, if financially uncompensated, on unit and district program. In the rest of the world, our council would have two office/store employees (I did not count the BSA employees running our Scout Shop) and two field reps to help with starting new units and helping with interventions at "sick" units if asked. All else is done by volunteers. Somehow, with all the paid help, our membership plummets just like the bowling leagues and garden clubs. In the UK, membership has been climbing smartly - without the massive personnel budgets - just those volunteers. If we reduced to a world standard of payroll, most of our need for council funds would disappear. Based on historic data, a 75% reduction in salary and benefits expense translates into almost a 70% reduction in my council's general funds expenditure. (Our super and very professional "development" specialist has raised piles of money for capital expenditure as the Scouts of the Golden Age become the honored dead. The camp has not had better physical facilities ever, so far as the oldest memory can recall.) I am not advocating drastic change in how BSA staffs as we have enough change with which to deal. And I do not see it happening soon, but those are the numbers and necessity may produce change will he nil he.
  49. 1 point
    There is a lot of real anger and hysteria in America. I think trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,... scouts and Scouters are part of the solution. My $0.02
  50. 1 point
    We are a successful troop because we have good program and execute it week in and week out. Also we have and support the feeder packs at the CO who do a good job of providing program to the local area. We are successful because of our experience and what we do. The district and council do little to bother us.