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  2. T2Eagle

    Flat Council Support fee coming to your unit?

    What's most needed I think is a lot more transparency about finances from both councils and national. There may have been a time when corporate and community donations funded a good part of the council costs, but I suspect that for many if not most councils those days are past. Absent donations what other revenues does a council have? There's whatever they charge for summer camp, which for most councils is probably going to be a break even operation at best, if they're lucky summer camp will fund the camp for the whole year. After that there's maybe a meager profit from a scout shop plus some tack on fees for activities like camporees, training sessions, etc. But all of that together would barely keep the lights on let alone par for staff to do recruiting, unit service, organizational work et al. If I understand the article correctly, the change that's being made in that council is that each unit has to come up with $125 per scout but will now keep all of their popcorn profits. Since popcorn revenue is generally 1/3 to the company and 2/3 profit that would mean that if you want to fund this simply through popcorn each scout would need to sell about $187 in popcorn each year. I suspect the SE is correct that this will be a problem for the 20% of units that don't currently participate in council fundraising, but most other units will be OK. I don't know that this is the best way to handle this, but I've always thought that most councils not charging a per scout fee that stayed in house was probably short sighted, and it's the shock of this transition that is going to be the biggest problem. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and the money has to come from somewhere. One thing not clear here is whether FOS funds raised in the units will also count towards the $125 fee.
  3. Double Eagle

    Why are Cub Scout uniforms and universal clothing items?

    That is great news and the right direction. As we look at back-to-school nights, the worst question is how much will everything cost. The sooner the better on this change. Just another example, the wood badge woggle is cheaper than the boy scout metal and cub scout neckerchief slides...hhmmm? The embroidered neckerchiefs online are the same price as silk screen printed ones. You gotta wonder.
  4. carebear3895

    Why are Cub Scout uniforms and universal clothing items?

    When I was talking to the National Director of Cub Scouting, he said they are moving away from the rank specific uniform items, minus the neckerchief and hat. They are just trying to get rid of inventory.
  5. carebear3895

    Flat Council Support fee coming to your unit?

    Personally, what the heck is the $24 "held by the council then billed to national"?? Also, charging units a "council support fee" is such BS....
  6. As I was browsing the scout shop on line today looking to uniform my new Tiger granddaughter, it came to me what goofed up Cub Scout uniforms we have. Each Cub rank specific hat is $15, rank specific belt buckles are $7, specific slides are $6, and socks are $6. Why the heck are Cubs getting a new batch of uniform items each year? How about just changing the neckerchief and letting it go with that. That item is only $10. Early 90s, all Tigers wore were the orange tiger shirt with earned paw prints, as they were just trying out scouts. We nickel and dime (really $5 and $10) our adults each year needlessly. How about Scouts BSA get one cub hat, belt, socks, and slide, to wear during their tenure as a cob, much like the troops. How about cubs wearing out a uniform rather than just getting a new one each year. BSA does some really questionable stuff and the cub uniform is just one that gets me shaking my head. If national wants to see the real deal on uniforms, they should take a hard look at the Webelo and why they wear non-fitting shirts that will carry them through Scouts. They may be Webelo first years, but often wear a youth medium. Adults just don't want to hand out money like that... a scout is thrifty, but hard to say that when everything is so highly priced. With today's prices on scouting, I would never been able to scout back when I started. Cubs had the blue uniform and hat throughout. Scouting had the olive green uniforms that were handed down or traded, gear was homemade, neckerchief slides were made, lower income families could scout without feeling lower income. As a lower income scout, I thought my tin can mess kit, spoon from home, and hand-me-down uniform was great. It was about the activities and not where or how much your gear cost.
  7. carebear3895

    Flat Council Support fee coming to your unit?

    Ah the song of my people. TBH, I don't think the starting salary is that bad if you're not terrible at managing money. The real kicker is promotions and raises. That's where a lot of good people leave because they don't want to wait 4-8 years to get a decent, family supporting position in a field they actually want. No body wants to be a ground pounding DE forever. I could go on and on about Pro life, but I digress for now.
  8. MattR

    Flat Council Support fee coming to your unit?

    Ours is $200/scout. I've been told that I could also charge $40-$60 per person for a camporee and the extra would go to the council. I not so politely said no. The problem in our council is that those in charge really have no idea how to run an organization. Business 101: There's no point in having a budget if you can't track it. In other words, they have no idea where they're spending money. They have staff making North of $85k a year that do nothing. Lot's of money is getting sucked out of camps, the real profit centers, to pay for these people. It used to be that lots of people donated money. That's over and nobody knows how to deal with it. So they're raising fees. Our DE's regularly don't get paid at the end of the year. A few years ago they took all new DE's and showed them how to get food stamps.. The underlying issue is the BSA pays really poorly to new hires at the lowest level and then only promotes from within. So, DE's are mostly those that couldn't find a job elsewhere. Granted, there are a few that really believe in scouting and are doing it even though they're not making much but the majority that I see have little to no experience in scouting or how to run an organization. That's the pool of expertise they have. My apologies to anyone that works for the BSA that I've offended. Maybe other councils do a better job. I suspect they just live closer to more companies that donate more.
  9. Double Eagle

    Scouts Make $$ Auctioning Elk Antlers

    I got to see this in action in 2005. This is a great win for everyone. How cool it would be to run the refuge and gather antlers. So much for popcorn. This district has the right way to go about getting funded with a renewable source each year. In addition to elk antlers, there are a lot of other things available to find. There are skeletal parts from winter kills, deer antlers, and all kinds of things to keep scouts bug eyed. I applaud the refuge directors and scouts in getting this continued. If only more districts and councils could do things similar. One council that comes to mind that could do this is the "last frontier" council in Oklahoma. They have the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge in their backyard. It has elk and buffalo. Visitors are not allowed to remove anything from the refuge, but I've seen buffalo and elk skeletons near some of the hiking paths. They have a free range longhorn cattle herd that is pretty big too. If scouts worked a deal with the refuge to gather items like in Jackson, it may benefit both organizations. I could also see scouts in Michigan and the northwest working with the DNR for salmon run processing each year. Michigan DNR used to filet salmon if you donated the eggs. I would pay a fee for them and scouts to filet salmon.
  10. qwazse

    Flat Council Support fee coming to your unit?

    Smoke and mirrors! Untangling this: The registration fee increase is news to me. But it looks like per continuing scouts: $33 registration $24 held by council then billed to national. $125 council dues (who are we trying to fool here?) $1-$8 rechatering fee depending on the size of the unit ($40 divided by # of scouts). $2 unit accident insurance. (I'm just projecting costs here.) So that's $185 per renewing scout per year. Half of summer camp. Perhaps scouts should quit in December and join in January to dodge the fee.
  11. Double Eagle

    Flat Council Support fee coming to your unit?

    Ok, I'm stone axe dumb on what is being stressed. First, I don't want to get started on how scouting is turning into a rich scouts game. So much is being stressed over fund raising that no emphasis is placed on the program to deliver. Most scouters are tired of pushing popcorn and rightly so. Our council does a fund raising card in addition to popcorn. I met a new cub parent at the local scout office and they were in sticker shock after buying her cub a uniform. As a scout, I had to sell "Scout-o-Rama" tickets and that was it. We rarely ever went camping outside the one council camp. Just as we grow with girls and the program, we start dipping into pockets for even more money. I'd hate to see what a family with 2 or 3 scouts pays for one year of scouting. If we in scouting continue to just raise prices without any checks and balance, we will lose our program. I'd hate to start selling cookies.
  12. The Great Rivers Council's Executive Director Doug Callahan said last week that a decline in fundraising revenues — which are currently 19.1 percent of the council's budgeted income — has led to the creation of a new "flat council support fee." The Great Rivers Council covers Boy Scouts of America districts in northern, northeastern and Mid-Missouri, including the Five Rivers District that includes Cole, Osage, Gasconade, Moniteau and Maries counties. The $125 council support fee is a per unit fee. Callahan said that means it applies to Cub Scout packs, Scout BSA troops or Venture troops — which are the units. The $125 will be multiplied by how many members of a unit there are at the beginning of the year — when units are rechartered in December for 2020 — and that's how much money the pack or troop will be expected to contribute in total to the council. for more confusion, here's source: http://www.newstribune.com/news/local/story/2019/may/21/local-boy-scouts-of-america-units-to-pay-council-support-fee/779620/
  13. shingobeek

    Broken Arrow ceremony

    Here is the ceremony from our chapter. Since the ceremony is performed in public, I see no need to post in the safeguarded area. I hope this helps: Broken Arrow Ceremony Introduction: This ceremony is a final tribute to a deceased Arrowman who served others cheerfully and embodied the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his daily life. At the request, or with the consent, of the deceased’s family, it is performed at the wake or funeral home. The Lodge and/or Chapter Advisor, Chief, and acting Allowat Sakima and Meteu should offer appropriate condolences to the family at the ceremony’s conclusion. All Order of the Arrow members attending the Ceremony should be in full uniform and wearing OA sashes. Materials: Arrow that has been painted red with notch in center of shaft Scouting history of the deceased Ceremony: The Lodge Brothers file into the parlor forming two equal lines extending from each end of the casket. One line is led by Allowat Sakima while the other line is led by Meteu. Once in position, the Brothers shall cross arms, right over left, and join hands with the Brothers on each side. An arrow (which has been painted red) will be carried by the second Brother in Meteu’s line. Once in position, the arrow is held between the second and third Brother in Meteu’s line. Each of these Brothers shall hold the opposite arrow ends, leaving a space in the line bridged by the arrow, to indicate the spirit of the departed brother. Allowat Sakima and Meteu will be in full Scout or Explorer uniform with OA sash and may wear appropriate Indian head dress. Allowat Sakima and Meteu step out in front of the casket about three feet and face the mourners. Meteu: We are members of (INSERT LODGE HERE) Order of the Arrow. The Order of the Arrow is a society of Scouts and Scouters who have been recognized by their fellow Scouts for their outstanding devotion to the high ideals of the Scout Oath and Law – a Brotherhood of Cheerful Service – whose foundation is modeled after the legends of the Delaware Indians. We have come here tonight to pay our final tribute to our departed Brother, INSERT NAME OF DECEASED HERE. Our mighty Chief shall now present a brief review of our Brother DECEASED personal Scouting history. (Nods and turns to Allowat Sakima) Allowat Sakima: (Gives a brief Scouting history of the departed Brother. Information may be obtained from personal history, forms, family, or close Scouting friends). INSERT HISTORY HERE (Allowat Sakima nods and turns to Meteu) Meteu: Peace my Brothers of the Arrow Of this Lodge and humble tribe, Bear with me this obligation To our Brother gone before us On the trail of fulfillment. He who camped and served among us, He who always stood beside us Now has left his earthly trail For the trail of his Maker. Let us in our hearts and minds Remember he who was our brother On the Earth . . . but now forever Brother Deceased in spirit with us. Meteu gets the arrow which has been held between the second and third Brothers in his line. These Brothers will not join hands when the arrow is taken by Meteu. The space in the line is to remain as an indication of the position formally held by the departed brother. The arrow should be taken and given with both hands on the arrow at all times during transfers. Meteu then passes the arrow to Allowat Sakima. Allowat Sakima takes the arrow with both hands. Allowat Sakima: As a symbol of our Order, The arrow has been fitly chosen. It must be straight, its point keen. Aimed high, its course undeviating. Its direction onward and upward. It is, therefore, a symbol of leadership. The breaking of the arrow (break arrow) is symbolic of the end of strife Leadership given, service accomplished, and the beginning of peace. (Give the arrow to the widow or family member or place the arrow on the deceased with the point of the arrow over the right shoulder. or an OA sash can be placed across the deceased’s chest or over the casket by Meteu). Meteu, will you strengthen our spirits with a prayer? Meteu: Oh, Great Spirit, Hear us in our prayer this evening, A final tribute to our Brother. He who loved the haunts of nature, Loved the moonlight on the water, Loved the sunshine on the meadow, Loved the shadow of the forest, Loved the wind among the pine trees, Loved the rushing of great rivers, Loved the thunder of the mountains, Loved all nature in its splendor, Found in nature duty to Man, Pledged himself to cheerful service, Serving his fellows and his Master Pondering that which is our purpose. Rest Brother, . . . We’ve known you well indeed And now in peace you’ll sleep. You’ve done your work and done it well So none of us need weep. (pause for 10 to 15 seconds) So be it. Allowat Sakima then leads his line past the casket and files out of the parlor. Meteu then follows by leading his line past the casket and also files out of the parlor.
  14. HelpfulTracks

    troop meeting structure/rules

    I'm with @TAHAWK and @DuctTape. Being an adult leader is not always easy. Particularly if you are going to truly follow patrol method and youth led. Being hands off, or more accurately, the invisible hand that guides, is much easier than it sounds. Gut instinct is to jump in and take charge, but resist that urge. Mentor, guide and set expectations, but do not try to run things. The PLC makes the rules of the Troop as long as they adhere to BSA Policy (G2SS, YPT, G2A etc), the law and CO rules. The PLC is also responsible for the all of the planing, for meetings, outings, service, fundraising etc. for the TROOP. There are elements of the opening and closing that must be maintained, but everything in-between is theirs to do with as they wish. It is their program, they make it. The Patrol/PL plan and run the patrol corner. The only way to keep the youth engaged is via the program. If they don't like the program they will not attend. If they plan the program, hopefully it will be one they like, but if it is not, then they can change it. If the program is boring to them, it is because they made it boring, but they can fix it. A better way to get Scouts to outings is to help the PLC plan outings that the Scouts want to attend. It is all about the program. If they don't like it they will not attend. If they see it is fun and they are missing out, they will bend over backwards to get there. We had an SPL use Roberts Rules of Order to run PLCs. He did it to make sure things ran smoothly and quickly, everyone provided input and that issues/program was actually put to a vote. He had several years of practice with RRO from school. He was smart enough and well versed enough in RRO that he didn't try to run the PLC using strict RRO, but a streamlined version. It worked well and was still being used by other SPLs when I left the troop. I think using RRO is great as long as it does not become an obstacle or a way to bludgeon scouts.
  15. Eagledad

    troop meeting structure/rules

    I teach SMs to guide their scouts to at least use an agenda because it keeps them on track from a starting to an end. Without an agenda, meetings tend to run really long because the leader will jump to what they remember in the moment. I let my SPLs run a couple of meetings without agendas just to prove me wrong, but they have always admitted agendas are the greatest thing since internal backpacks. The participants of our NYLC course planned at least 12 meeting agendas, and lead 3 during our course. I believe the SPL Handbook, or PL Handbook has a simple agenda. Basically: Officer and PL reports Old business New Business Closing if you need one. You could add Roberts Rules and let the Scouts work out what they like to use. Our SPL plans and runs an averages of 50 meetings every six months. They get quite good at them. Barry
  16. fred8033

    troop meeting structure/rules

    I agree. I was attempting to say that scouts is not about teaching Robert's Rules. If anything, those rules can get in the way of our teaching our scouts to listen and be compassionate and thoughtful to each other. But if you can use those rules in a constructive way to teach listening and compassion and thoughtfulness, then great. The key is ... We are not there to teach our scouts to master bureaucracy. It's about the social dynamic and how to work with others. That's the leadership we're teaching.
  17. qwazse

    Merit badge sash

    Just had this discussion with some scouts in my Jambo troop. One had experienced such nit-picking at NAOC. I gave him a suggested a frank, but respectful, reply. (If any you Uniform Police hear something that sounds like it came from a stranger on the internet, drop me a line. I'll let you know if it was my suggestion.) I think BSA botched it by declaring nonstandard the use of belts sash racks for convenient storage and display of extra regalia. If it had allowed it, then boys would be more likely to keep both sashes at the ready, only wearing one or the other over the shoulder as needed. P.S. - the belt sash rack this would also resolve the crowded MB problem. If a scout wanted to display them all, there would be a specific way to wear the extra sash.
  18. qwazse

    troop meeting structure/rules

    Rules of order just serve as a means to make space for everyone to listen to everyone else. Experience with them is good thing. I've had friend from church whose first exposure was as an adult at a congregational meeting. Being a programmer/engineer he was amazed at the recursive logic built into human interactions. I pointed out that most folks want computers to imitate our nobler traits. That said, I've seen masters of those rules use them to justify any disdain they had for leadership and authority. So, while it might be good to encourage scouts to use rules of order at a PLC, you want them to use different listening skills within their patrol. And, you want to discourage them from being indignant if rules of order aren't used properly at other meetings (e.g., O/A Chapters or Venturing Officers Associations).
  19. fred8033

    troop meeting structure/rules

    That's fine, but ya know this is not about Robert's Rules or creating the perfect mini-legislature. It's a gang of kids that should be doing things. It's probably going to look and smell like a gang of kids when planning. Pay attention to the social dynamics and mentor the scouts there. Being kind, helpful, loyal, etc. IMHO, Roberts Rules are applied when there is opposition and winners and losers. Now if you want to use Robert's Rules to get to trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, ... fine. It can be a tool. It's just not required.
  20. fred8033

    Merit badge sash

    "simply wear as many ... as possible" (that fit) ... I've many times seen adult leaders do uniforming checks but then be wearing four or five rows of square knot awards ... even though the adult leader uniform inspection checklist says the world crest needs to be centered between left shoulder seam and the top of the pocket. Depending on shirt size, many leaders should only be wearing two rows of square knots and not four or five. Shouldn't we correct our most experienced scouters first? Our scouts were recently doing a ceremony picture. I watched and kept my mouth shut. It was their picture and they were driving it. Yes, they were wearing both MB and OA sashes concurrently and one over each shoulder. I would have preferred just the MB sash or with the OA sash folded over their belt. But to be honest, as long as they were clean cut and looking sharp, I'm going to let it be their picture. Anything beyond that is nit picking and taking away from their experience.
  21. bsaggcmom

    Merit badge sash

    The young man in the photo must not be taking advantage of the back of his sashes for badges. When my son was in Scouts we got 58 (rows of 3 until the point, then 2 or 1 in a row) badges on the front of his sash. By extrapolation a large sized sash (personally I feel these are the only ones that should be sold, but that's another topic) can fit 116 badges and still leave a strip at the top of the shoulder for a sash pin.
  22. DuctTape

    troop meeting structure/rules

    I reiterate my previous opinion. This is NOT a PLC decision, but one that should be made at the Patrol level. Each patrol needs to decide how their patrol will operate during patrol meetings/activities. The PLC should be a place where the PLs can report on their progress as a patrol, seek advice from other PLs and make TROOP level decisions. The PLC should not dictate how a patrol decides to operate.
  23. qwazse

    troop meeting structure/rules

    Rules of order are next-level. Your PLC should be proud for even trying to use them. I wouldn't ask for a recount based on technically. If some PL's felt left out, they could move for a vote of no confidence in the SPL. But, it is probably better to just wait until the next election cycle and see if candidates bring up these changes as justification for election/reelection.
  24. Beginning in February 1927, Charles E. Wood, Special Deputy Regional Scout Executive of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), along with the Charlottesville Rotary Club led the effort to establish the Lewis and Clark Area Boy Scout Council #599 in Albemarle and the adjacent counties. Continue Reading Here...
  25. Certainly when I was a scout, the SMs and ASMs were nowhere to be found on my BoRs. My dad was on the committee, and they would be held after the troop meetings. The SM would go upstairs to give his report, and any boys waited downstairs, he would come back down and then the boys "went up" for their BoRs, one at a time.
  26. ParkMan

    Merit badge sash

    Just thinking out load here, but wouldn't it be better for a Scout to wear the uniform as proscribed and simply wear as many merit badges as possible on it? I mean no disrespect, but isn't vioating the uniform rules to wear two sashes (whether double wide, one on top of each other, or bandolier) an example of a Scout breaking the rules for their own self interest? i.e., "I know that the unform rule says one sash, but I earned these awards and so I think I'm entitled to do it."
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    • What's most needed I think is a lot more transparency about finances from both councils and national.  There may have been a time when corporate and community donations funded a good part of the council costs, but I suspect that for many if not most councils those days are past.  Absent donations what other revenues does a council have?  There's whatever they charge for summer camp, which for most councils is probably going to be a break even operation at best, if they're lucky summer camp will fund the camp for the whole year.  After that there's maybe a meager profit from a scout shop plus some tack on fees for activities like camporees, training sessions, etc.  But all of that together would barely keep the lights on let alone par for staff to do recruiting, unit service, organizational work et al. If I understand the article correctly, the change that's being made in that council is that each unit has to come up with $125 per scout but will now keep all of their popcorn profits.  Since popcorn revenue is generally  1/3 to the company and 2/3 profit that would mean that if you want to fund this simply through popcorn each scout would need to sell about $187 in popcorn each year.  I suspect the SE is correct that this will be a problem for the 20% of units that don't currently participate in council fundraising, but most other units will be OK.   I don't know that this is the best way to handle this, but I've always thought that most councils not charging a per scout fee that stayed in house was probably short sighted, and it's the shock of this transition that is going to be the biggest problem.   There's no such thing as a free lunch, and the money has to come from somewhere. One thing not clear here is whether FOS funds raised in the units will also count towards the $125 fee.
    • That is great news and the right direction.  As we look at back-to-school nights, the worst question is how much will everything cost.  The sooner the better on this change.  Just another example, the wood badge woggle is cheaper than the boy scout metal and cub scout neckerchief slides...hhmmm?  The embroidered neckerchiefs online are the same price as silk screen printed ones.  You gotta wonder.       
    • When I was talking to the National Director of Cub Scouting, he said they are moving away from the rank specific uniform items, minus the neckerchief and hat. They are just trying to get rid of inventory. 
    • Personally, what the heck is the $24 "held by the council then billed to national"?? Also, charging units a "council support fee" is such BS.... 
    • As I was browsing the scout shop on line today looking to uniform my new Tiger granddaughter, it came to me what goofed up Cub Scout uniforms we have.  Each Cub rank specific hat is $15, rank specific belt buckles are $7, specific slides are $6, and socks are $6.  Why the heck are Cubs getting a new batch of uniform items each year?  How about just changing the neckerchief and letting it go with that.  That item is only $10.  Early 90s, all Tigers wore were the orange tiger shirt with earned paw prints, as they were just trying out scouts.  We nickel and dime (really $5 and $10) our adults each year needlessly.  How about Scouts BSA get one cub hat, belt, socks, and slide, to wear during their tenure as a cob, much like the troops.  How about cubs wearing out a uniform rather than just getting a new one each year.  BSA does some really questionable stuff and the cub uniform is just one that gets me shaking my head. If national wants to see the real deal on uniforms, they should take a hard look at the Webelo and why they wear non-fitting shirts that will carry them through Scouts.  They may be Webelo first years, but often wear a youth medium.  Adults just don't want to hand out money like that... a scout is thrifty, but hard to say that when everything is so highly priced.  With today's prices on scouting, I would never been able to scout back when I started.  Cubs had the blue uniform and hat throughout.  Scouting had the olive green uniforms that were handed down or traded, gear was homemade, neckerchief slides were made, lower income families could scout without feeling lower income.  As a lower income scout, I thought my tin can mess kit, spoon from home, and hand-me-down uniform was great.  It was about the activities and not where or how much your gear cost.            
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