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  2. 5thGenTexan

    Where would you go?

    We have talked about that a bit locally.
  3. I'm a OSU grad, so how can I say a kind thing about OU? Thinking... Thinking...
  4. walk in the woods

    Limit for Cub Scout nights of camping

    Language is but a social construct having no intrinsic meaning. 😎
  5. qwazse

    Where would you go?

    A neighbor kid of mine collected handbooks and did just that. I'd see him and his "patrol" on some trails in our community's park. @Sentinel947, your church's and mine ... someplace between here and Hogtown. The coffee will be strong and hot.
  6. fred8033

    Where would you go?

    It's not just setting standards, it's repeating the same stuff over and over again with only slight yearly growth.
  7. qwazse

    Limit for Cub Scout nights of camping

    Nobody ever claimed that we Yanks were masters of the English language!
  8. desertrat77

    Where would you go?

    Parkman, we are indeed doing these things. But there are only so many hours in the day, very few volunteers to do the work, a limited amount of dollars (most of out of own pocket), and a finite amount of patience. We have the training, experience, vision and grit. Our bona fides are right up there with everyone else's. There comes a point where one remembers the tale of Three Legged Pig: "A pig this nice, you don't eat all at once."
  9. ParkMan

    Where would you go?

    I think we're about 95% in agreement here. Yes - pros & volunteers alike need to be talking Yes - we need fewer bloated committees Yes - we really can get rid of much of the "corporate" scouting I think I've said this before in other topics. But, one of the best things for Scouting would be for our volunteers to assume more ownership for what is happening in their community. If you're pack isn't growing - then figure out why If you district doesn't have a camporee - then start one If you feel dis-empowered by the professionals, then buy them a cup of coffee and become friends. My suspicion is that the volunteer function in the BSA has so atrophied that people who are putting in 40 hours a week are just by virtue of the fact that they are there so much as assuming control of many functions. I don't think it's even deliberate. Unfortunately as it's been this way for 20 years (or more), we have a whole generation of professionals and volunteers who don't quite know how to relate to each other. @Eagle94-A1 - you and I have exchanged enough comments that I understand your plight. I guess all I can say is that if one's district is so far gone where the basic volunteer functions are not working, then you've got to start somewhere. It will take some time for the professionals to come around, but in most cases I think they will. After all, it's in their best interest for there to be a strong volunteer team. You
  10. Are you asking about team performance or public perception?
  11. Today
  12. Since Mizzou went to the SEC, I don’t the follow Big 8 12 anymore. Does OU suck this year?
  13. Bingo. This should have moved down Council pathways at least a month ahead.
  14. Treflienne

    Limit for Cub Scout nights of camping

    Imaginary conversation between two girl scout parents: Mom A: My daughter is doing a week of scout camp this summer. Mom B: Is she doing day camp or overnight camp? Mom A: She'll be doing overnight camp. It will be the first time she's been away from family for a whole week.
  15. John-in-KC

    Guide to Advancement #33088 2019 Edition

    Remember, 33088 is the policy book, not the requirements book.
  16. RichardB

    Limit for Cub Scout nights of camping

    I'd also add in here is the instructor syllabus for BALOO: https://i9peu1ikn3a16vg4e45rqi17-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/510-03318-BALOO_web.pdf While there are several uses of the term overnight in the document I'd point to Appendix MM. The Sample Pack Camping Agenda modeling the program.
  17. Jameson76

    Where would you go?

    A lot lot lot of focus on Cubs. Looking on my council website; picture of a Cub, Lots of Cub Training, Lot of Spook-o-ree stuff. When they put in Tiger Cubs in 82, a good number of us thought that was a bit much. As many have noted, Cubs is less a fun program and more of a slog. We have had many boys over the years that bailed on Cubs / Webelos but came into Scouts. They were just tired of the same thing over and over. Input also is that 5th graders are not really into the family camping, they want to build fires and tell crude jokes The BSA's strength and distinction in the market place is the Outdoor Focus. If a unit does this, they will recruit and retain Scouts. The STEM stuff, Schools do it better. Duty to God, the Church youth groups likely has the better program. Leadership and independent thinking, learning life skills outdoors, yeah, THAT is what we do and what we SHOULD be focusing on. National is doing it's level best to limit the risk and activities, but many units plunge ahead. They have also WAAAAY over sold the Eagle rank. Yes it is good and yes it is a long term project, but that is not WHY we are running units, that is not the reason. Ranks advancement is a by product of good program, not the reason for it.
  18. Sentinel947

    Where would you go?

    As a young, single adult, I'd get my social life back. Spend more weekends at the range, doing my own camping trips. No more weeknights at Scouting stuff. (3 nights this week). Maybe at some point if my church had an outdoors ministry, I'd help with that. This may happen to me regardless of what happens with the BSA's solvency.
  19. MattR

    Where would you go?

    Since my kids are long gone, I'd do more in my wood shop. That's happening anyway. Yes, tools are expensive but they'd be mine. Now, if my kids were younger .... One idea I've thought of, the BSA has a great handbook, so why not just use that? Just do the program and don't join. It's not just $50 to national I'd save, we also have a $200 tax to council. Every camporee now has a 35% tax for council as well. Uniforms could also be simplified. The tradeoffs are: no official eagle scouts and no help with summer camps, camporees, MB counselors, or HA trips. While that puts more pressure on the units I'm thinking that could be a good thing if the scouts are encouraged to own more of this. My troop used to do most of this anyway (except the part about getting the scouts to own more). Who knows, if enough troops joined Rogue Scouts the BSA might get some needed competition and bring everyone back into the fold.
  20. RichardB

    Limit for Cub Scout nights of camping

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overnighter an overnight trip It does have as the root word https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overnight overnight adjective Definition of overnight (Entry 2 of 4) 1: of, lasting, or staying the night Examples of overnight in a Sentence Adverb He stayed overnight and went home the next day.
  21. Eagle94-A1

    Where would you go?

    The challenge as I see it in my area is that the professionals want it their way, and don't try to change it or you will be removed from your POR at the district/council level. Worse case I saw was being removed from BSA altogether. There are pros who care about the program, and want the volunteers involved. EDITED: There are pros who care about the program, and want the volunteers involved. But there are more who do not, and they tend to be the SEs and DFSs of the councils. They put pressure on the lower DEs. And since DEs have their jobs on the line, it is a lot of pressure. I quit.
  22. desertrat77

    Where would you go?

    I agree, dialogue with professionals and the volunteers is an absolute must. But have we seen any movement in that direction? Especially by the pros? We've got multiple examples right here on the forums of pros not listening to the unit level leaders. Given the crisis at hand (and I don't think I'm overstating the case by calling it such), I'd thought there would be a concerted effort to rally everybody, display at least a little transparency, cut some costs where needed. I haven't seen or heard anything aside from boilerplate PR messages. I believe in the professional scouter corps. One of my favorite mentors was a DE who also served as waterfront director at the camp where I staffed as a youth. He was both professional and personal, honest, and displayed respect for all, from the newest Tenderfoot to the most seasoned scoutmaster. What we don't need are the bloated committees (hey districts, you need four different membership chairs now!), bean counting everything (quantity over quality) and much of the mile wide/inch deep stuff that has permeated the BSA. Yes, there is a necessary corporate aspect to scouting. Always has been and it is still needed. But it has lost touch with its customer base and its best selling product. That to me is the single biggest issue I have with the culture of professional scouting in the BSA. Individually, I've met many a great pro. Others...not so much. They have other priorities, and helping units get outdoors is not one of them.
  23. ParkMan

    Where would you go?

    I agree that there are things that National can do better. But, as a long time leader I don't think this is all national's fault. Little of the costs that we incur in Scouting are directly nationally impacted. Yes, we could get cheaper awards. Yes, we could have lower national fees. But, as we talked earlier in the thread, about 17% of our parents spending went to national fees. Add awards to that and maybe it's 25%. At the Scouts BSA level, it's even less - 7% in national fees. Maybe that amount again in awards. If we look around at other things - cost has gone up everywhere. In part this is because our society expects more today than they did 50 years ago. Homes are more developed, cars have more features. Look at parks, stadiums, schools, etc... facilities everywhere have become more developed. I've watched scouts scrape by with bad gear and have a miserable time - cooking stoves that don't work, pans that stick, tents that leak. I wager a guess that gear today costs more, but when adjusted for inflation isn't any more expensive than what I had as a kid. If we're talking about re-doing the BSA, I believe this has to be a conversation the involves both professionals and volunteers. Volunteers are going to have to take on more ownership for program and recruiting. I live in a mid sized city. We have one professional. I'm sure if given the choice our local volunteers would love to not pay for him. So, if we start cutting back professional staff, who's going to facilitate growth? Are we just going to stop worrying about growth? What happens when the Scouts in my city drop by 50%?
  24. HashTagScouts

    Where would you go?

    Good analogy. Another that helps to grasp it- in many states, an accident/moving violation on your driving record will stay for 5 years, 10 years (depends on your state laws) as long as you stay accident/moving violation free. Get into another accident/receive another moving violation in that time, your costs will increase all over again. You don't typically see a massive cost drop after that 5/10 years has passed, you just don't see a drastic increase on the next renewal.
  25. TAHAWK

    Supporting the Patrol Method - as Unit Commissioner

    I note with interest the centrality of JTE in the UC's assessment role. "Patrol method" is one category for JTE scoring points. Yet JTE gives no points for actually using the Patrol Method. You can score "Gold" if the PLC plans nothing and the patrols do nothing. One "Gold'""winner" for 2016 with which I am familiar, had PLs (wearing the patch) who could not say which patrol they were in. They had no actual leadership responsibility - apparently wore the patch for POR purposes so the troop could churn out "Eagles." Even troop games ("Time for recess," the SM would announce.) were 1s vs 2s. The UC for that unit only attended Eagle courts of "honor." Scoutmaster is also the defacto unit CC. He was council "Scoutmaster of the Year' for 2011. Down the road in the next town was a "Scout-run troop," whose Scouts, I was told, had "no time" for any patrol activities whatsoever. At least the PLC was given a menu of adult-choices for campouts and really got to pick from those choices - except summer camp ("Too important for kids to choose."). They had patrol contests. SPL ran the meetings. PLs or ASPLs were assigned by the SM to run piece-parts of meetings, , although the SM would regularly interject emphatically if things got messy . ("We have our standards," he related.) I saw six meetings. Each was the same sequence of elements: opening; half hour of adult announcements; Scoutcraft instruction by an adult; game; more announcements; closing; PLC run by SM or ASM. JTE could actually encourage use of the Patrol Method.
  26. desertrat77

    Where would you go?

    Thanks for the insights, @HashTagScouts. I've always felt that the proposed bankruptcy/sunny days ahead was more or less pie in the sky. Right now the BSA, as an organization, is like that person with a low credit rating that needs to buy a car, but is going to have to accept whatever interest rate and conditions from wherever they can get the loan. Long term grim.
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