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  2. perdidochas

    What can SM do for son's advancement?

    The general rule in my boys' troop (I was one of the ASMs) is that parents didn't sign off anything unless they were the only people permitted to sign it, or it was a matter of troop records on the online system (number of outings, campouts, etc.). By only person permitted to sign, I mean things like if we had one Environmental Science counselor, then he could sign off on his sons' advancement, etc. Our SM's sons had their SM conferences with one of the ASMs.
  3. MattR

    Adult led and youth led

    The pros of this is anything that you want to do you'll get the backing of the parents. This is huge in today's world. I'd take a "troop" of these kids in a heartbeat. This is not very well defined. Due to your Free Range Kids activity, I'll assume this has nothing to do with the BSA (although I wish this mindset would infect the BSA) and is really about offering some scouty things to the FRK community. The pros are the kids want to, and have to, take ownership. Since they've been encouraged to do this from a young age they will be more accepting of it. This is really big. A con is those children that come in to this late. The kid that has been taught to cross busy streets when they were 7 knows how to take care of him/herself, but might not know how to deal with the new kid that's not paying attention to the walk lights. Ranks in the BSA used to handle this. A First Class scout could take care of himself in the outdoors. Not so much now. So you'll have to figure this out. If this indeed is more based on FRK then one pro is that advancement really is just a method. If a kid wants to advance then they figure out how to do that. It's not front and center. Adult association is both a pro and a con in scouts. Teaching the youth the skills they need to safely engage in the adventures they want is a big pro. Reinforcing scout ideals is also important. Helping the scouts come up with ideas for adventure is also beneficial. Beyond that it's likely a con. Institutional knowledge (outdoor skills, regular outings) is created with the typical troop's existing calendars. Without that there can be a loss of knowledge to the youth. There might be a lot less service, but there could be more if the youth enjoyed it. Things like camporees and merit badge fairs would likely fade away. (mostly a pro) Summer camp would be about fun. (huge pro). The outdoors might get a lot less interest but maybe the youth would find something else, such as music or a sport. That could drive some youth out. So, you can't do what the GSUSA did and drop the outdoors. Camping is still fun. Sounds interesting. Keep us informed.
  4. Today
  5. qwazse

    Adult led and youth led

    Hi @Kudu, thanks for coming back to stir the pot! I've meet a few such lone patrols (LP). Thanks to a relative's cabin or farm and a generally free-and-open city and state park system, Western PA is rife with youth going hiking and camping independently with their mates. The recently instituted requirements for, and legalistic definitions of, adult supervision, make BSA a very hard sell for an LP. But, absent those here's my observation: The Pro's of of a (LP) joining a troop: Metrics: the LP may now have an objective rating of their performance through competition and sharing of reports. Ethics: the LP may now acquire a common set of ideals with which to challenge themselves and other patrols. Association: the LP may now access their community's most dedicated adults and get constructive feedback on any plans and designs. Materials: the LP now has access to more/better materials through bulk purchases and shared maintenance. Fellowship: members of LP can feel isolated. It may turn out that their LP stinks -- or he/she stinks in the opinion of that patrol. In a troop, the observant LP member can request transfer to another patrol. The Con's: Abdication of Real leadership. In an LP, if you don't serve your mates well, they'll invest their time elsewhere -- there's an immediate cost to failing to lead. Joining a troop provides the temptation to pass on real leadership. The former LP may bank on the troop to take up slack, and repeatedly drawing on those reserves will leave the LP with nothing of distinction. Clumsiness. Free-range patrols drive their parents nuts because they make plans quickly as soon as they see openings in schedules. Troops demand that patrols stop and think about their next move. The other patrols might have expectations. At the very least the LP will have to seriously consider meeting those expectations. More often, that is not a question of "if", but "how." Infrastructure burden. All LP members can quickly agree to use one media platform. E.g., they may meet at a particular park bench every morning. To offset clumsiness, a troop needs to maintain a more permanent presence, and the LP must now contribute to that maintenance by providing QMs, TGs, JASMs, Scribes, Librarians, Buglers, etc ...
  6. Eagledad

    Adult led and youth led

    Pros are faster bonding and more growth from individual decisions. Con is the challenge for continued growth and maturing as scouts get older and more experienced. Barry
  7. willray

    Adult led and youth led

    You pose such interesting questions. I'll be interested to see what others think, and to see whether my thinking changes as I puzzle about this more. I have the feeling that there's something here I can use to shine light on some problems I observed between my two troops this weekend. I'll make a first proposition that the cons are almost completely circumscribed by the observation that joining a troop creates more opportunities for damaging loss of autonomy and conflict. Even in a troop composed of similarly free-range patrols, the more cooks there are, the more chance for spoiling the soup. Yes, that can be a learning experience, but if one assumes that free-range patrols have more internally-consistent "personalities" across the patrol than patrols constructed by adult fiat, then it's possible for those personalities to come into conflict in such a way that it passes beyond a learning experience and enters the realm of destructive. I would assume that the natural tendency in a free-range troop would be for such mutually-incompatible patrols to simply dissociate themselves, but, human beings are not well-known for making the wisest decisions, and quite a lot of damage can be done before wisdom is earned. There would appear to be quite a range of pros, from mundane better access to resources or expertise, to improving patrol cohesiveness because human teams tend to function better when there is an "other" against which to compete or measure themselves.
  8. Samuel

    Merit badge sash

    Thank you very much everyone for your response and time.
  9. qwazse

    A tale of two scouts

    Scout #1. Tell her to not think of it as "telling" so much as asking firmly. In fact here's an approach that I found worked for some scouts: For scout stuff, get into the habit of addressing each member of your patrol formally, with titles. E.g. Mister/Miss Surname. Each "command" begins with "Please" and ends with "Thank You". E.g., "Please get the fire started while Miss is getting our supplies. Thank you." In other words, she needs a culturally appropriate language that frees her from worrying about things like pushing her friends around. Make clear that you expect to see her demonstrate progress immediately, and emphasis your confidence that he can succeed if he tries. Scout #2. You must arrange a brief conference with him. Tell him that you observed particularly unhealthy behavior. A scout is helpful. Ask him if he wants to be a scout? Ask if he treats his parents this way. (I bet on some levels, he does.) Chances are he'll Tell him that if he wants to continue to be a scout, he'll to be helpful to his patrol ... both the one assigned by the troop, and the one assigned by the Almighty (i.e., his family). Make clear that you expect to see him demonstrate progress immediately, and emphasis your confidence that he can succeed if he tries. We'll worry about what happens to those scouts if they don't improve in short order.
  10. Treflienne

    A tale of two scouts

    I agree. It's not nearly so hard for her to say "Have you checked the duty roster?" as it is for her to say "Please do X". If the other scouts are good-natured about helping when needed, but simply not paying attention to when they need to do something, the PL making and posting a duty roster that fairly distributes the jobs might help.
  11. fred8033

    Merit badge sash

    Rules and procedures never can address all cases though back of the sash is a reasonable solution and explicitly stated. From all the uniforming violations I've seen, I think the best answer is make it look sharp and clean. Sashes have been sewed double wide and lengthened. Or use the back. As long as it looks sharp and respectable, no one should complain.
  12. MattR

    A tale of two scouts

    Scout 1). How about starting with a duty roster? Everyone needs a job so she has to decide. She should also not give herself a job unless she's short scouts. It seems to me that scouts have a lot of trouble delegating because they don't want to rock the boat. We're all friends and nobody tells anyone what to do so I can't mess that up because then I won't have friends. Talk to her about servant leadership. It's not the evil boss. There's a time to play and a time to get work done. One of her jobs is to help her patrol get the work done faster so they can play more. She's not telling others what to do so much as helping them get back to having fun. Scout 2). He did briefly pull his weight, so take that as a win even if he's looking to you for approval. Do that a couple of times and then work with his PL to take over your job. It sounds like just maybe this scout knows he's not making friends but doesn't understand how this works. As ridiculous as that sounds think of it from his view. He may never have pulled his weight before. He may only have people tell him how much he's screwed up. Some kids just don't know.
  13. Treflienne

    Adult led and youth led

    Not quite the question you are asking -- but one benefit to a kid of seeking out a troop is to find that patrol of kids with common interests -- if he hasn't already found one on his own.
  14. David CO

    Adult led and youth led

    I would argue that the main con is the pros.
  15. Yesterday
  16. Kudu

    Adult led and youth led

    Thanks to @RememberSchiff @Sentinel947 @Eagle94-A1 @desertrat77 @willray and @DuctTapefor the warm welcome back. 😎 This summer I do hope to participate in a few threads like this, but with the goal of learning how to make short "explainer" graphs and videos for Free Range kids. What would be the pros and cons of joining a "Troop," if you are a Lone Patrol of kids encouraged by your parents to seek adventure on your own? Thanks again! Yours at 300 feet, Kudu Kudu.Net
  17. WELCOME BACK @Kudu
  18. Thunderbird

    Merit badge sash

    Also: "Scouts may wear only one merit badge sash at a time. A merit badge sash is never worn on the belt" and "Temporary patches may only be worn on the back of the sash. The merit badge sash and the Order of the Arrow sash may not be worn at the same time".
  19. Cleveland Rocks

    Merit badge sash

    There is an answer. Guide to Awards and Insignia, page 35: "Merit Badges may be worn on the front and back of the sash." https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Scouts_BSA_Insignia_WEB.pdf
  20. I see BSA Trade marked "Scout Life" GSUSA VS BSA trademark lawsuit news: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/scout-me-out-girl-scouts-challenge-boy-79741/ "Another issue to consider is if BSA is offering its services to girls, can it also use the term GIRL in connection with SCOUT, SCOUTS or SCOUTING?"
  21. All-girl Scouts BSA Troop Wins Top Awards At Camporee https://signalscv.com/2019/05/all-girl-scouts-bsa-troop-wins-top-awards-at-camporee/
  22. desertrat77

    Merit badge sash

    @Samuel, many moons ago, I recall scouts could sew MBs on the front and back. Once the sash is full, I'm not sure. I've seen photos of hybrid sashes, two or perhaps more tailored together. I don't think there is a right answer given the rarity of the situation. Truly unchartered territory....
  23. Sentinel947

    Interesting observation - rank advancement

    Hey @Kudu! You should stop by more often! We miss hearing from you. I hope you are doing well!
  24. Samuel

    Merit badge sash

    https://scoutingmagazine.wordpress.com/2014/03/21/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-merit-badge-sashes/ I read this but stick confused. A scout with 100+ merit badges, can he attach the patches in the front and back of the sash? Or Extend the sash lengthwise and attach the patches only to the front of the sash? Or Any suggestions? Regards Sam
  25. ItsBrian

    Best comfort items & traditions for summer camp

    I’m late, but that made me think. When I staffed a summer camp, I preferred my Nike running shoes over my Columbia boots. I tried to wear my running shoes since they were more comfortable for me. I had to wear BSA socks, so socks didn’t make a difference. I only wore the boots when it rained heavily and was muddy. Let’s see what I prefer this year when I go back.
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    • The general rule in my boys' troop (I was one of the ASMs) is that parents didn't sign off anything unless they were the only people permitted to sign it, or it was a matter of troop records on the online system (number of outings, campouts, etc.).  By only person permitted to sign, I mean things like if we had one Environmental Science counselor, then he could sign off on his sons' advancement, etc.  Our SM's sons had their SM conferences with one of the ASMs.    
    • The pros of this is anything that you want to do you'll get the backing of the parents. This is huge in today's world. I'd take a "troop" of these kids in a heartbeat. This is not very well defined. Due to your Free Range Kids activity, I'll assume this has nothing to do with the BSA (although I wish this mindset would infect the BSA) and is really about offering some scouty things to the FRK community. The pros are the kids want to, and have to, take ownership. Since they've been encouraged to do this from a young age they will be more accepting of it. This is really big. A con is those children that come in to this late. The kid that has been taught to cross busy streets when they were 7 knows how to take care of him/herself, but might not know how to deal with the new kid that's not paying attention to the walk lights. Ranks in the BSA used to handle this. A First Class scout could take care of himself in the outdoors. Not so much now. So you'll have to figure this out. If this indeed is more based on FRK then one pro is that advancement really is just a method. If a kid wants to advance then they figure out how to do that. It's not front and center. Adult association is both a pro and a con in scouts. Teaching the youth the skills they need to safely engage in the adventures they want is a big pro. Reinforcing scout ideals is also important. Helping the scouts come up with ideas for adventure is also beneficial. Beyond that it's likely a con. Institutional knowledge (outdoor skills, regular outings) is created with the typical troop's existing calendars.  Without that there can be a loss of knowledge to the youth. There might be a lot less service, but there could be more if the youth enjoyed it. Things like camporees and merit badge fairs would likely fade away. (mostly a pro) Summer camp would be about fun. (huge pro). The outdoors might get a lot less interest but maybe the youth would find something else, such as music or a sport. That could drive some youth out. So, you can't do what the GSUSA did and drop the outdoors. Camping is still fun. Sounds interesting. Keep us informed.  
    • Hi @Kudu, thanks for coming back to stir the pot! I've meet a few such lone patrols (LP). Thanks to a relative's cabin or farm and a generally free-and-open city and state park system, Western PA is rife with youth going hiking and camping independently with their mates. The recently instituted requirements for, and legalistic definitions of, adult supervision, make BSA a very hard sell for an LP. But, absent those here's my observation: The Pro's of of a (LP) joining a troop: Metrics: the LP may now have an objective rating of their performance through competition and sharing of reports. Ethics: the LP may now acquire a common set of ideals with which to challenge themselves and other patrols. Association: the LP may now access their community's most dedicated adults and get constructive feedback on any plans and designs. Materials: the LP now has access to more/better materials through bulk purchases and shared maintenance. Fellowship: members of LP can feel isolated. It may turn out that their LP stinks -- or he/she stinks in the opinion of that patrol. In a troop, the observant LP member can request transfer to another patrol. The Con's: Abdication of Real leadership. In an LP, if you don't serve your mates well, they'll invest their time elsewhere -- there's an immediate cost to failing to lead. Joining a troop provides the temptation to pass on real leadership. The former LP may bank on the troop to take up slack, and repeatedly drawing on those reserves will leave the LP with nothing of distinction. Clumsiness. Free-range patrols drive their parents nuts because they make plans quickly as soon as they see openings in schedules. Troops demand that patrols stop and think about their next move. The other patrols might have expectations. At the very least the LP will have to seriously consider meeting those expectations. More often, that is not a question of "if", but "how." Infrastructure burden. All LP members can quickly agree to use one media platform. E.g., they may meet at a particular park bench every morning. To offset clumsiness, a troop needs to maintain a more permanent presence, and the LP must now contribute to that maintenance by providing QMs, TGs, JASMs, Scribes, Librarians, Buglers, etc ...  
    • Pros are faster bonding and more growth from individual decisions. Con is the challenge for continued growth and maturing as scouts get older and more experienced.  Barry
    • You pose such interesting questions.   I'll be interested to see what others think, and to see whether my thinking changes as I puzzle about this more.   I have the feeling that there's something here I can use to shine light on some problems I observed between my two troops this weekend. I'll make a first proposition that the cons are almost completely circumscribed by the observation that joining a troop creates more opportunities for damaging loss of autonomy and conflict.   Even in a troop composed of similarly free-range patrols, the more cooks there are, the more chance for spoiling the soup.  Yes, that can be a learning experience, but if one assumes that free-range patrols have more internally-consistent "personalities" across the patrol than patrols constructed by adult fiat, then it's possible for those personalities to come into conflict in such a way that it passes beyond a learning experience and enters the realm of destructive.  I would assume that the natural tendency in a free-range troop would be for such mutually-incompatible patrols to simply dissociate themselves, but, human beings are not well-known for making the wisest decisions, and quite a lot of damage can be done before wisdom is earned. There would appear to be quite a range of pros, from mundane better access to resources or expertise, to improving patrol cohesiveness because human teams tend to function better when there is an "other" against which to compete or measure themselves.  
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