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  2. Five months ago my 11 year old son joined a very small Boy Scout Troop. He was in Cub Scouts for 5 years and I have been very involved as a den leader and Pack Committee Chair. I have no prior experience at the troop level. The troop we joined had only one patrol with 6 boys. My son and 5 of his Webelos friends joined together and formed a new patrol (doubling the size of the troop). The troop has been in existence for 40+ years and has two ASM who have been around for a long time. The problem is that although they claim to be "boy led", the boys have no idea how to run a meeting, plan an activity or actually lead anything. They had an election, but the new PLs received no training and have not had any opportunity to act as leaders. There does not seem to be any system for training the boys to take on various jobs/positions. Everything is very disorganized. Meetings are boring. Older boys stand in front of the room and lecture the younger boys about various topics. No one is using the EDGE method. Boys are getting signed off on requirements without actually completing them. (Instead of "demonstrating" various things, they just have the boys explain, regurgitating what is written in the handbook). The ASMs quiz the boys at length on skills, asking them to describe or explain when the requirement clearly says "show" or "demonstrate". The SM recently stepped down for personal reasons and one of the new parents has taken on that role. He's a great guy, but has no experience at the troop level (previously volunteered as a den leader). I'm willing to pitch in and volunteer to help make the troop better. But I honestly get the feeling that they don't want to improve. So I'm wondering if we should simply look for a better, more organized, well run troop. My biggest concerns right now are the lack of training for the scouts, and the way they are addressing the requirements. Is this typical for a Boy Scout Troop? Appreciate any advice. Thanks!
  3. desertrat77

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I've served in several councils over the years, and in more than a few of those, the WBers were collectively "as described" by the criticisms here in the forum. Though I haven't taken WB, I know how to read a syllabus. And heaven knows, I have been subjected to many a long-winded recitation of every facet of WB courses by graduates. I can also assess performance. There is often quite a gap between what WB teaches and how many WBers perform their scouting duties. Not to mention how they interact (or don't) with non-WBers.
  4. qwazse

    Qualities of an Eagle

    Read again. I quoted my father-in-law -- not granddad. Therefore it was referring to how I wound up with the best mother-in-law a guy could ask for. Although I'm sure Mrs. Q gets the "brought int this world" benefit! But Pack's misread shows that blaming the writer for folks who read facts not in evidence is a little silly. It's fine to have a little back and forth to hone in on what's being said, and if what I've said is patently unconscionable, I'm more than happy to change my approach to youth's issues. But, that means the cause had better be against the construct itself and not a straw-man. Proclaiming "it might sound like ... <insert PC concern here>" doesn't carry the weight that "this definitely implies ..." does. Just like the soon-to-be-father Eagle candidate. By most of our books, we could dock him for fornication. Some of us might also fault the abandonment of universal precautions. But, using that to speak to his entire character is setting up a another straw-man. And, how you weigh it against all the other scout's traits (including how he is going about responding to this situation) might very well depend on where you live. I will take this moment to point out; however, that the real answer probably involves "Time will tell." If the Eagle rank weren't merely a youth award, you could tell the scout, "We need a year to see if you will handle this situation responsibly and with true scout spirit." Being able to do that might help develop a desirable character.
  5. Today
  6. cocomax

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I do not have any problem with the Wood Badge course, or people taking Wood Badge. Most my scouter friends took Wood Badge and it was just a training course to them and nothing more. I have a problem with over the top Wood Badge recruiting that spoils a scout activity. I have a problem with scout camp fires becoming surprise 45 minute long beading ceremonies. I have a big problem with the way Wood Badge people haze and insult one another, it is very un-scout like. I have a problem with all the critter based sexual innuendo and inside jokes that sound like sexual innuendo that they use in front of the scouts. At the last Camp-O-Ree camp fire I went to the Wood Badgers ( a group of around 15) managed to completely mess things up. . . in a way that I have never seen done before (they upset a lot of boys and scouters). The problem is some people treat Wood Badge as something more than a training course, when they really shouldn't.
  7. Eagle94-A1

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I agree completely. That is the situation I am in. When I taught SM specific and IOLs, I went after the best folks I could to help with the courses. I even had youth staff who i know had the KSAs to do the job to show what a Scout is capable of doing if you "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" And I have folks I see today who are only paying lip service to the patrol method. One troop was nearly annihilated when one of them took over. he told me that "BSA needed to change with the times." Of the 3 NYLT grads he had when he took over as SM, 1 stayed registered to remain in the OA, but never did another thing again with the troop, and 2 transfered to a troop that is a PM troop. Regarding Adults reminiscing about troops of their youth, as I see more and more troops, I realized how lucky I was to have Joe S. as my SM growing up. We were a Youth Led troop. We made mistakes. We had out problems. We were by no means perfect. But we were youth led. SM, and CC for that matter, not only advised and mentored us, but more importantly kept well meaning adults from interfering and ruining the program.
  8. Sentinel947

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I've completed NYLT (2009), and Wood Badge (2015) and also served as adult staff on NYLT(2018). They are incredibly similar courses. Their content is similar. Where they differ (or should if they're done right) is the mindset the participant should be in. NYLT a Scout is supposed to live the life of a scout in a model troop and participate in the activities that challenge them and their patrol. Wood Badge is similar, but it's more about witnessing and participating in how a model troop is run, and the presentations are tied back to how adults can coach youth in leading the troop. Wood Badge in 2015 was a great chance for me to review the things I'd learned at NYLT and how they applied to me as an adult working with youth, instead of the soon to be SPL I was back in 2009. I'm excited to be sharing that experience with another great group of staff and participants in 2019. To be frank, we're fighting an uphill battle here. The reality is new adult leaders do not go straight off to the training. They enter a cub scout pack or boy scout troop, and that is there default experience against which they view any subsequent training. If that adult was a Scout in their youth, than they are also viewing the training through the prism of their own scout experience (for better or for worse.) When I took Scoutmaster Specific Training and IOLs in 2012, I was basically able to teach IOLS (and did help the instructor.) Scoutmaster Fundamentals was a revelation for me, because I realized how much room my troop had for improvement from the adult side of the program. It was a pretty good troop when I was growing up, but it's patrol method was lacking ( and in many ways still is, despite many efforts over the last 6 years.) If a leader is not the Scoutmaster, they are pretty powerless to effect change in a unit, they can only influence through persuasion. Then there is a ton of friction and challenge to getting an organizations adults and scouts to accept a change AND get it to stick. Many leaders are going into Boy Scout Troops where the patrol method is only given lip service, and where the Scouts are executing the plans of adults (best case scenario). Worst case it's a camping club with scout advancement run by adults. Even the best training is going to have an uphill battle against that kind of ingrained expectations. In places where training isn't well done, or the trainers aren't strong, knowledgeable, or helpful, I'm not really sure what impact changing the training would have.
  9. malraux

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    It sounds like a good course for a summer camp to offer for scout masters.
  10. ParkMan

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    Sure - i get the Wood Badge isn't the pinnacle of Scouting knowledge. It's a leadership course set in a Scouting context. It's can provide you tools to be a better Scouter - but they are just that - tools. I'm 100% in support of an advanced course for Scoutmasters. That would be wonderful. A sort of Wood Badge or Powder Horn scale course about being a Scoutmaster. Scout skills, boy led, patrol method, etc. That would be an awesome course! I'm not looking to start up a debate here. I just think that the volume of negative Wood Badge comments are excessive.
  11. Eagle94-A1

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    Once upon a time you, WB was two separate courses, one for Cub Scout Trainers, the other for Boy Scouters. And very briefly there was a 3rd course for Explorer Advisers. I do not know the requirements for the Cub Scout Trainer WB course, but the Boy Scout version required completion of all basic training, a minimum of 2 years tenure in a Boy Scout volunteer position (I am told it could be waived only if you aged out as a youth at 18, so an 18 or 19 year old could do it) and be invited. The folks taking the course were experienced Scouters, and the course was to improve themselves and learn and expand their knowledge to bring back and help train their youth to run things. I admit, I am not a WBer. But I went through BA22, and staffed JLTC, and both are based on WB. In fact one of my JLTC staffers took WB 3 months after staffing JLTC. I was unable to take that course and told him I planned on taking the next one. He told me, "Don't waste your time. Everything we taught at JLT is taught and WB. Only difference between the two courses is the ticket." When WB21C came out, they combined to the courses and tried to make it "one size fits all." A lot of important program specific material has been left out that is really needed. And I have seen many folks take WB as Cub Scout leaders, and think they know it all when they move up to Boy Scouts. Powderhorn was originally designed for Venturing as a way for Venturign advisers to learn hor to help their crews plan and execute HA activities. I do not believe it covers a lot of advanced skills . except whatever type of mini HA activity is planned.
  12. malraux

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    Doesn’t powderhorn function as a more advanced outdoor skills course?
  13. DuctTape

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I am not aware of one. At least not officially.
  14. Yesterday
  15. shortridge

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    There have been a couple references in this thread to A-IOLS. Is there an advanced version of that training currently?
  16. DuctTape

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I dont think those who have issues with wB believe the scouters who have taken the course are not dedicated, or do not have the desire to be better scouters. I percieve the issue to stem from the idea that wB training is the pinnacle of all scouter training. For me, this is where the disconnect arises. wB is good training, but it in no way meets the standard that it aspires to be. This is not necessarily the wB program, but the inexperienced folks taking the course. Most just don't have the pre-requisite experience and training to fully benefit from a top level training. Hence my suggestion for training levels. If the concept of levels was too much like "rank" then ditch it. The main point is that too many scouters are basically starting and ending with wB. There needs to be significant training and experience for a scouter leading up to what is claimed to be the pinnacle of training. If not, we are putting the whipped cream and cherry on top of nothing.
  17. ParkMan

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I'm in favor of more and better training for Scouters. I've written about that before. I'd really like to see for each major position (SM, ASM, MC, CM, DL) a more significant program of training to get you ready. Not just position training -> IOLS -> Wood Badge. I would think that the programs need to be tailored to the role. i.e., as a CC it's only tangentially relevant to my role to send me through wilderness plant identification training. The Wood Badge topic I always find funny. About 90% of the Wood Badge comments I read are from non-Wood Badge Scouters complaining about the course and those that have taken it. I'm well aware that most of us have met a Scouter somewhere that was a jerk and decided to get beaded. I'm saddened by those people. In my travels, that vast majority of Wood Badge Scouters I know are dedicated Scouters who took Wood Badge in the hopes of being a better Scouter.
  18. Eagle94-A1

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    Sadly this happens already with some folks. I've encountered folks whose attitude is "If you don't wear beads, you don't know squat." And I agree is does indeed cause drama and problems we don't need. I've seen some extremely experienced and knowledgeable Scouters get frustrated with the attitude and either quit Scouting all together, or just refocus their energy on the unit. Me personally, I get a kick out of using all the WB/NYLT techniques, methods, and language, and getting asked what critter I am. I love the look on folks' faces when I proudly jump into song, "I'm a Cocky Curlew of the Brownsea Camp...." Going over the Patrol Method in online training is not enough. I've seen too many ignore it, misunderstand it, or think it's antiquated and BSA needs to change with he times. Even in the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals Training where you were assigned to a patrol the first full day of class, were part of the same patrol during the second Model Meeting class, expected to have a patrol meeting, then operated as a patrol during the final 3 day weekend class was not enough for some. The Adults in the unit really need to model it, and mentor it. Also the Patrol Method needs to be STRICTLY ENFORCED (emphasis), something that has not been happening in the troop I am in of late. And it's not being enforced under the guise of being "family friendly" as the SM told me. EDITED: That's the irony. He wants to be family friendly, but does not see how doing so is slowly destroying the patrol method and thus the troop.
  19. WisconsinMomma

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    Yes, but I feel with Scouters, time is of the essence. We don't know how long we'll have our volunteers for. It is good that we have position specific training required, and that is a pre-req for Wood Badge. You need to be trained in your position. If we make it too leveled, then you have potential issues with Scouters feeling like they outrank one another, and that is a bunch of drama we don't need. I'd grab a Scouter, find a training and have them go for it. Wood Badge is a commitment because it's 2 weekends. Some of my WB Patrol mates were Cub Scouters and they were delightful, and in Scouting for the long haul. Yay! Many of the online trainings go over the patrol method and that's great!
  20. packsaddle

    Qualities of an Eagle

    WisconsinMomma, I'm just trying to be helpful here but the post by quazse is still there, I think, on Wednesday at 11:34 am (at least according to the time stamp on my computer). Here it is: "Speaking of "less developed countries" my father-in-law first noticed my mother-in-law while they were tending crops in the hinterlands of western PA. He saw her work-ethic and thought, "She'll do." Demean the "help-mate" criteria all you want, but to this day, I am reaping the benefits of that union." When I read this the first time I realized that it could be taken a number of different ways and at least one of those would not be good....as you have noted. Please remember, that was his grandfather and not him. The 'benefit' he mentioned was likely being brought into this world. As he indicated, these forums are not always successful at conveying intent or tone and can easily go 'south', even when it was not intended.
  21. awanatech

    hello everyone

    Hi kristy, welcome to the forum
  22. Chadamus

    hello everyone

    Welcome to the forum, Kristy! 🙂 If you please, tell us about your role(s) in Scouting.
  23. DuctTape

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I agree that more training, not less is better. However all training should be incremental. At one time, as has been pointed out, WB was for experienced scouters. It was the highest level after having demonstrated skill at the other levels. The last few iterations are using WB as the introductory training. Which is ok, if it is marketed as such and there exists follow-up advanced trainings. However these do not exist. Imagine a scouter training regimen which has levels and required trainings to be completed to advance in each level. They can be called whatever we wish, but for the reqs could be something like: Scouter: YPT Scouter basic: YPT, troop committee training, patrol method module (which should be created) Scouter 2nd class: basic plus SM specific, and IOLS. etc... later levels might have "options" like mB training, or safety afloat, or A-IOLS. Cubbers could have a similar track.
  24. Chadamus

    Motivation Quote of the Day

    We are unstoppable. Not because we do not have failures or doubts, but because we continue on despite them. - (with liberties taken from) Beau Taplin
  25. hiker67

    Contagious Disease Outbreaks

    While comparisons to stomach bugs and other illnesses may be helpful, it is important to note that diseases like measles seem to be very different. 1. People who have contracted measles are contagious for four days before symptoms appear; by contrast, patients infected with the flu are contagious for just one day before symptoms appear. Checking glands and temperatures upon arrival will not catch measles in advance; by the time infected people are found, others have already been exposed. 2. Unlike the flu, there is no "season" for diseases like measles. While it may spread faster in the cold months, the current outbreaks in Europe have flourished during summer. 3. While hygiene and sanitation play a key role in stomach bugs, flu, etc., they may not help as much with measles. Once an infected person leaves a room, the viral particles in the air may remain viable for up to two hours. 4. While the vast majority of people will recover from measles, there is a small risk of fatalities. There is also a small risk of permanent vision, heart or neurological problems. There is also a small risk of virus reactivation years after the initial occurrence; if this happens, it is always fatal and there is no treatment. Camps probably have not had to deal with the likes of measles since the 1950s, so this is essentially new ground (outbreaks of mumps and whooping cough are also occurring). At this point, it is unlikely that BSA will require the immunizations that are currently recommended. Even if they were required, people could write in fake dates in the immunization sections of health forms (if the doctors left them blank). So, camps, along with their state health departments, may need to consider a number of questions, the answers of which may vary, depending on the disease. Should infected people go to the health lodge or should the health staff go to the infected people (perhaps, to minimize exposure to others)? Should all people without vaccination for the disease in question be sent home, or just those with symptoms, or close proximity to the infected persons? Should unvaccinated people be restricted from coming to camp during the following week of camp? At what point would a camp be closed entirely and for how long? Refund policies?
  26. RememberSchiff

    Contagious Disease Outbreaks

    Yes we are better staffed for Sunday check-in whether that is due to staff planning, state regulation, or camp accreditation I don't know. Well if a scout/scouter has a fever , open wound, fracture,...or a doctor's note, I can't see the argument. Back in the day when polio vaccine came out, Public Health Mb was a recommended merit badge for Eagle Scouts. Be prepared. Another $0.02
  27. cgail

    Contagious Disease Outbreaks

    You can catch any communicable diseases even though you are vaccinated. They wear off as you age, and as the flu vaccines show us every year, some are not a effective as others. Someone choosing not to vaccinate their child for whatever reason CAN impact my family's health. The BSA should come out as pro vaccination. It's as much a part of teaching about the public good as the citizenship and preparedness lessons we use daily with our Scouts.
  28. WisconsinMomma

    I HATE the new YPT rules

    I think that if the Scouter has worked with male Scouters and it's not working, try a female Scouter. My Wood Badge course director was female, and I kind of idolized her, she was great, and so when she made a recommendation not to do XYZ, I listened to her with less resentment than I would if some guy I had no connection to and who was maybe not my best match to work with gave me a recommendation not to do XYZ. Does that make sense? The example was, I offered to go help with NYLT training, and she advised me to find a ticket item working with Cub (where I had more experience). So I became a BALOO trainer. Now, over the course of Wood Badge, I had shared with my troop guide, who I'm sure shared with the team, that I was struggling finding my way with some pushback and in particular, one not-so-welcoming person in the troop. So the advice they gave me was good. I stuck with Cubs, where I had years in the program, and more friends, and... with some time I was able to get an in as Troop Secretary, they had no one else! I was volunteering! How could they say no!!?? The guy who I had trouble with raked me over the coals for my first set of minutes. Now I can look back at it and laugh and laugh. They really didn't want me, but hey, here I am! You got nobody else. And I am not that bad, I was just new, female, and I knew a few things about Scouting (from hanging out here!) For me, as a woman, Wood Badge was an important part of me gaining some credentials to help people see me as, you know, sightly qualified to have input. Back to that first round of meeting minutes, I cried. I had put a couple hours into make them the best darn meeting minutes I could, and I had re-formatted them (like, used a different font, changed some wording to make it nicer. I put the Scout Oath and Law on the minutes in the free space!) so I owned them. One person hated that anything had changed. I got the email from hell and they changed everything back to the way it was. I cried. My husband saw me crying and thought I was totally over reacting, but he didn't feel what I was feeling -- total rejection from the Troop. In another matter, I suggested that something he did might upset the same (control freak) Troop adult. My husband said -- I'm a volunteer! I don't care what he thinks! If they don't like it that's his problem! LOL. I have adopted more of my husband's attitude. Tough cookies if you don't like the font that the minutes are done in. LOL. We've got bigger things to take care of! And, I'm a volunteer -- people should say -- thank you to volunteers a lot more often, don't you think?? You suck doesn't really get a lot of repeat business. It helped that my course director is VERY "successful", or, well-respected in Scouting. Here she is the course director with a huge staff who loves her, and she is a Silver Beaver. What a great role model for me. And really, she's a magnificent leader. You could just tell by how well the course staff worked together and had fun throughout the whole time. Maybe it doesn't need to be a female, but someone she can click with who can get enough of a relationship going to be able to offer suggestions. If there is no relationship it is not easy for a person to listen to feedback. It's not about gender necessarily, it's about finding the right fit. But in a male-dominated organization, working with a fellow female is a real treat. I'll add that as a Cubmaster, I am closest to our female Committee Chair in Cubs. Of course, our kids were in my den together, and I've known her for years, our older kids are in the same troop together. But I talk to her and interact with her more than any of the guys. Mostly because of our roles, but I am very thankful for that relationship. Maybe the female Scouter has some stress or fears in her life about Scouting and how it all works that another Scouter can help empathize with and alleviate. Relationships take time. I was at a conference in the Spring where there were about 700 attendees and 30 were women. One woman came right up and introduced herself to me and we spend quite a bit of time together. Another female came up to me and I spent a lot of time with her too. It makes you feel less weird when you find someone like you in those situations.
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    • Five months ago my 11 year old son joined a very small Boy Scout Troop.  He was in Cub Scouts for 5 years and I have been very involved as a den leader and Pack Committee Chair.  I have no prior experience at the troop level.   The troop we joined had only one patrol with 6 boys.  My son and 5 of his Webelos friends joined together and formed a new patrol (doubling the size of the troop).  The troop has been in existence for 40+ years and has two ASM who have been around for a long time. The problem is that although they claim to be "boy led",  the boys have no idea how to run a meeting, plan an activity or actually lead anything.  They had an election, but the new PLs received no training and have not had any opportunity to act as  leaders.  There does not seem to be any system for training the boys to take on various jobs/positions. Everything is very disorganized.  Meetings are boring.  Older boys stand in front of the room and lecture the younger boys about various topics.  No one is using the EDGE method.  Boys are getting signed off on requirements without actually completing them.  (Instead of "demonstrating" various things, they just have the boys explain, regurgitating what is written in the handbook).  The ASMs quiz the boys at length on skills, asking them to describe or explain when the requirement clearly says "show" or "demonstrate". The SM recently stepped down for personal reasons and one of the new parents has taken on that role.  He's a great guy, but has no experience at the troop level (previously volunteered as a den leader). I'm willing to pitch in and volunteer to help make the troop better.  But I honestly get the feeling that they don't want to improve.  So I'm wondering if we should simply look for a better, more organized, well run troop.    My biggest concerns right now are the lack of training for the scouts, and the way they are addressing the requirements.  Is this typical for a Boy Scout Troop? Appreciate any advice.  Thanks!  
    • I've served in several councils over the years, and in more than a few of those, the WBers were collectively "as described" by the criticisms here in the forum.  Though I haven't taken WB, I know how to read a syllabus.  And heaven knows, I have been subjected to many a long-winded recitation of every facet of WB courses by graduates.  I can also assess performance. There is often quite a gap between what WB teaches and how many WBers perform their scouting duties.  Not to mention how they interact (or don't) with non-WBers.
    • Read again. I  quoted my father-in-law -- not granddad. Therefore it was referring to how I wound up with the best mother-in-law a guy could ask for. Although I'm sure Mrs. Q gets the "brought int this world" benefit! But Pack's misread shows that blaming the writer for folks who read facts not in evidence is a little silly. It's fine to have a little back and forth to hone in on what's being said, and if what I've said is patently unconscionable, I'm more than happy to change my approach to youth's issues. But, that means the cause had better be against the construct itself and not a straw-man. Proclaiming "it might sound like ... <insert PC concern here>" doesn't carry the weight that "this definitely implies ..." does. Just like the soon-to-be-father Eagle candidate. By most of our books, we could dock him for fornication. Some of us might also fault the abandonment of universal precautions. But, using that to speak to his entire character is setting up a another straw-man. And, how you weigh it against all the other scout's traits (including how he is going about responding to this situation) might very well depend on where you live. I will take this moment to point out; however, that the real answer probably involves "Time will tell." If the Eagle rank weren't merely a youth award, you could tell the scout, "We need a year to see if you will handle this situation responsibly and with true scout spirit." Being able to do that might help develop a desirable character.
    • I do not have any problem with the Wood Badge course,  or people taking Wood Badge.  Most my scouter friends took Wood Badge and it was just a training course to them and nothing more. I have a problem with over the top Wood Badge recruiting that spoils a scout activity. I have a problem with scout camp fires becoming surprise 45 minute long beading ceremonies. I have a big problem with the way Wood Badge people haze and insult one another,  it is very un-scout like.
      I have a problem with all the critter based sexual innuendo and inside jokes that sound like sexual innuendo that they use in front of the scouts.   At the last Camp-O-Ree camp fire I went to the Wood Badgers ( a group of around 15)  managed to completely mess things up. . . in a way that I have never seen done before (they upset a lot of boys and scouters).    The problem is some people treat Wood Badge as something more than a training course, when they really shouldn't.        
    • I agree completely. That is the situation I am in. When I taught SM specific and IOLs, I went after the best folks I could to help with the courses. I even had youth staff who i know had the KSAs to do the job to show what a Scout is capable of doing if you "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"  And I have folks I see today who are only paying lip service to the patrol method. One troop was nearly annihilated when one of them took over. he told me that "BSA needed to change with the times." Of the 3 NYLT grads he had when he took over as SM, 1 stayed registered to remain in the OA, but never did another thing again with the troop, and 2 transfered to a troop that is a PM troop.   Regarding Adults reminiscing about troops of their youth, as I see more and more troops, I realized how lucky I was to have Joe S. as my SM growing up. We were a Youth Led troop. We made mistakes. We had out problems. We were by no means perfect. But we were youth led. SM, and CC for that matter, not only advised and mentored us, but more importantly kept well meaning adults from interfering and ruining the program.  
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