how to explain policy to a scout

I want to ask a question to which I'd like practical (as opposed to polemical) responses. This is not an issues & politics post, nor do I want the thread to go in that direction; rather, it is a post based on something a real, flesh & blood scout asked. Please gear your responses accordingly.

What do you tell a scout (late teen) who has his doubts about organized religion, and announces in a public manner that perhaps he's an agnostic. Of course the "a" word brings down the ceiling, so the practical advice the scout is given is to avoid using that word. He then comes back and says some thing like "well maybe I'm not an agnostic. I'm just undecided." Which, because it doesn't include one of the BSA's forbidden "a" words, is accepted without much question.

The scout, being a teen, wants to know why it matters whether he calls himself "agnostic" or "undecided," and how scouting can purport to preach about character, morals, etc., while splitting hairs on matters like this. Teens are good at knowing hypocrisy when they see it.

How do you counsel the scout? (Supposing he genuinely wants to stick with scouting and isn't just looking for a way to get kicked out.) How do you counsel his leaders?

Yah, I think how yeh counsel the scout depends a bit on your perspective and that of your CO, eh? For me, I reckon doubt is as much a part of a life of religious faith as emptiness in prayer. We all experience it from time to time. Just as we all experience consolation or meaning in prayer at other times. A fellow I respect once cried out in utter desolation, "My God, My God, Why have you abandoned me?"

For the adult leaders, I'd tell 'em not to get hung up over words, but to treat the lad like a young person they love and care about. Yeh don't raise membership issues with a kid who is searching and questing and looking for his way. It's just not in keepin' with da oath and law and ordinary common sense.

So I think the only error here was tellin' him not to use the "a" word. That's an adult hangup. We adults should get over our hangups and just care for da kids, eh?

Beavah

From my perspective, there is a difference between having issues with organized religion and not believing in any kind of higher being. I know many people who I would characterize as very spiritual yet they don't belong to any organized religion. Its normal for youth to question their beliefs and I believe it to be an important step.

First off I think it's important for people to understand the difference between Agnostic and Atheist....

Agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

Atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

A person who is atheist says there is no god... an agnostic person says there may be a god or there may not be, it is beyond human knowledge to know for sure. Another way to word it would be an agnostic can say that there may very well be some sort of god or higher power, but at this time I have no personal understanding of on.

being a person that does have a belief in god or higher power if you prefer, but does not practice any form of religion and has run the gammat of different beliefs I would simply ask the boy what he does belief and what he doesn't. I grew up in a catholic household and went to religious ed and even catholic school from 4th-12th... and some of the things I was taught just didn't "jive" with everything I learned in science. For me I had to go through everything I was taught and decide if I could believe in it or not. Through that process my beliefs fit in no form of organized religion and so to many I would appear to be agnostic, but I do actually have a good spiritual belief.

of course this conversation is often best left up to a young man, his parents, and his religious leaders... but if he's like me all those people tell him the same line and dance which for me made me feel more and more angostic... it wasn't until I had people outside my religious upbringing assist me in this subject that I was able to come to the understanding that I do today.

ok, it's late, and I've been up for over 30 hours so I hope that all made sense.

It's very likely that this thread will soon have 100 hits. Strong opinions will flourish, and we'll lose sight of the Scout.

The difficulty with issues like this is that we readers have limited information, and therefore only opinions, and opinions about other people's opinions.

I think most people question their own and others' religions. That's fine. This Scout is trying to put a label on what he believes or does not believe. The difficulty I have with this is how vocal he might be about it (this is a private issue), and the alarm raised by those around him (which might be why he's vocal). If this remains a private and thought-provoking issue for him, then I'm on his side. So far, no harm ... no foul. If he's enjoying the ride and the attention gained by his comments, then we don't need him. Yes, he may need us, but we don't need the negative press associated with this kind of thing.

Counsel him to keep this to his close friends and family. Seeking the truth is what youth and education are all about. Wish him well in his journey, and give him your support.

BDPT00

Encourage him to continue his internal searching process and his discussions with members of his family.

Ask him, in a manner intended simply to provoke thought, how he views the relevant portions of the Scout Oath and Law, and what impact those have on his beliefs.

Through my years of working with boys, I have witnessed that the adults the scouts respect the most in the area of a relationship with God are adults who role model a moral lifestyle without really exposing their own personal religion. I have seen grown up scouts confess this to those adults later in their life.

Its more of an adult problem than a scout problem. An adult who thinks there is hypocrisy in scouting is an automatic red flag that they are not likely a good advisor in this regard. If one adults response is judgmental and sets the boy in one direction, it takes away from his ability to broad minded and find his own answer.

All of us wonder about these things now and then, but we must take the approach that its life experiences that give us direction. Its normal and we need to remind scouts that. But we adults tend to want to give instant answers when in reality this is something that takes a long time to understand. There is really no one answer that can fix this scouts dilemma instantly. Instead encourage the young man to watch and listen. Really its best for adults to be passive when it comes to our relationship with the higher spirit. Encourage questions, but never give a direct answer. Instead give them a question that allows them time to think. The scout will respect you for that.

The Troop adults job is really simple and only need to be persistent that the morality of the oath and law are not mans creation, but from a higher source. This way the boy can measure the difference between decisions based from an immortal source compared to decisions based from a self serving man. Adults just need to insure troop culture of measuring decisions by the oath and law. And it is important that judging behavior remain consistent for everyone. That way the adults arent the experts in the area and only need to ask the scout how he sees the application of his behavior, or others behaviors compared to the scout law. The adults dont have to come off has experts, in fact respect can go a long way when the adult admits that it something each of us are still learning or pondering.

Hopefully the scouts start to filter many of their decisions through the law and oath, and they start to get a better understanding of how life can more fair and less self serving with guidelines based from a higher source.

Dont make a big deal out of any of it. You certainly cant be preachy or threatening. I know scouts can have lively discussions in this area as well and the adults just need to encourage civil if not a pleasant dialogue. But if the adults encourage an environment of judging by the law and oath, the boys will not only learn to respect it, they will want more of it. Ive especially seen boys from abusive families embrace the oath and law because it is fair and takes the confusion away from right and wrong. they feel safe in an environment where everyone is judge by the same set of guidelines because they dont get that at home.

This kind of went long, by apologies. But it is a good question, as we can always expect from Lisabob.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

I must have missed the memo that said "Scouts who utter the "a"word(s) must be banished." If the Scout is a teenager, presumably he can read. Give him a copy of the DRP and offer to discuss its meaning with him. Then see if he re-registers.

Part of being a teen is questioning and searching. We need to do what we can to help a scout find "his" beliefs and direction, without pushing him to accept things he does not want at this time. Still, we do need to try to bring to the front that his position is normal, and that being reverent is a personal thing that can manifest itself in many ways, not just in established, main line religions. Spirituality is personal. As an adult, I have found myself questioning again and again, especially when confronted by truly challenging occurrences in my life or in public view.

Ultimately, he needs to reach his own decision. Most, in my experience, do find their own spiritual grounding.

To be clear, this is not a case where a cocky teen is simply looking to cause trouble or stir the pot, and then sit back to watch what happens. This is a scout who is typically a pretty deep kid, who has shown a lot of commitment to the ideals of scouting (not just he likes to go camping, though he certainly seems to enjoy that, but that he thinks about and cares about what it means to live your life by the oath & law. In talking with him I think his dilemma probably comes from the very fact that he takes the law & oath seriously.

Truthfulness, for example, matters to this kid. He said something kind of like "how is it right that I can get into all sorts of hot water for saying I'm agnostic, but if I just say I really don't know what I believe and I'm undecided about the nature of some higher power, that's ok?" (ok I condensed what he actually said but that's the gist of it - I might be streamlining in terms of words but I'm not putting meaning in his mouth.)

This is also a kid who does not come from a particular religious tradition. I'm pretty sure his family does not belong to a church, etc., and I don't think they ever have in his lifetime. So it isn't that he's rebelling against a particular approach, as much as that he's trying to decide whether he has a faith home (whether organized or individual in nature) at all. I think asking him to elucidate what he believes would probably not produce much in the way of details because he doesn't seem to know what he believes, or if he believes anything at all.

More generally, my observation of late teens is that they tend to have very strong senses of right/wrong, and rather weaker acceptance of grey areas or moral complexity. Developmentally speaking, it seems like the ability to grapple with moral complexity tends to come a little later, in people's early 20s. Yet, late teens also are on a search for deep meaning and identity. Sometimes, these two facets collide. I suspect that's where this young man is in his journey right now.

Scoutldr - maybe I am misunderstanding BSA policy. I was under the distinct impression that neither atheists nor agnostics could be members of the BSA, at least, not in keeping with BSA membership guidelines (enforcement is another matter I guess). Again, I don't want this to become an Issues & Politics post - we're talking about a real kid here - but if I've actually misunderstood the policy, please let me know.

This is one of those times where Mr SM (and some other adult... 2 deep you know) ... invite the young man for a friendly breakfast someplace.

This isn't time to be pedantic or get out the threatening booming voice. Instead, he's asking questions. It's a good time to allow him to ask those questions, and to share some answers. Sometimes those answers are going to be deeper questions.

I would not even bring up the rules of Scouting. He's seeking his own path, and perhaps not connecting dots. He needs adult friends, more than ever.

Lisa;

While this is a "walk carefully" situation, I am somewhat confused by why the term agnostic is of concern anyway. As you noted, this is beat to death in the other area of the forum; but agnosticism seems to me to be the act of searching for something, and that still recognizes a spiritual significance, just does not specify it directly. Possibly a simple explanation to that effect is all that may be needed.

Please, for those that do not agree, this is not the place to argue. And I choose not to argue. This is simply my take.

Skeptic, good point, and I think part of the scout's problem here. He views the word "agnostic" as a way of expressing his uncertainty about faith - a condition which pretty much all of us here agree is quite common for teens and adults alike. However, he's been told by well-meaning adult scout leaders whom he respects that the word could trigger problems for him in terms of his continued membership in the BSA, and/or future advancement. So he was advised to just use a different label, one without the baggage.

There's that strong right/wrong streak a lot of teens have, popping up again - If one word is ok to apply, what makes the other not ok. I think he didn't like that kids could quite unintentionally set off these sorts of landmines with serious potential consequences for them, over something that many people would view as a minor semantic difference - what kind of organization puts kids in such a precarious position.

The advice I guess I'm seeking isn't just how to guide this young man's spiritual journey, which is delicate enough and difficult enough in its own right. I guess I'm looking for some input about how to help a thoughtful young man learn to see the world in less absolute terms and live with some ambiguity, without feeling as though he's surrendered his base for determining (and acting upon) right and wrong.

(Example of the sort of question he's asking: "If the BSA says it won't admit agnostics, is it a lie to choose a different word like "undecided" to describe the same state of affairs? Because trustworthy people don't lie for the sake of convenience." Now I don't know that we want to answer that question in this thread, because I don't think there's a single good answer to it and it will just devolve into issues & politics bickering - If you want to do that, please start your own thread elsewhere. But that's nature of the problem for this scout, I think - that there isn't a clear right/wrong response to such questions.)

We spend all these years of a child's life teaching him about right and wrong (and that's hard enough sometimes) but then all of a sudden we put them in situations were simple notions of right and wrong don't really apply, and they're ill-equipped to handle it. How do you help a kid develop an appreciation of and comfort with that sort of complexity?

Boy, this is hard stuff to articulate. I hope what I'm saying makes some sense, and I really appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Lisa;

Years ago, when I had only been a SM for a couple years at most, I remember having a conversation late at night with two older scouts standing by the dying fire. I was asked a question along the same lines, though maybe a bit more pointed. I remember discussing the idea that searching is okay, and that everyone eventually arrives at a personal conclusion. But we also talked about how things change with experience and maturity. After a short time, I asked them to come away from the fire a ways to a clearing. It was a clear night with no moon, or at least not up yet, at 5700 feet in the mountains of Southern California. I asked them to just spend a few moments looking at the sky, then consider their question again. Then I went to bed and left them alone.

Later, they both indicated to me that they had not come to a final conclusion; but they had no doubt that something greater than themselves existed. One of the great "impact" possibilities with our outdoor program.

I understand this is a serious question, Lisa, and am not intending to fan the flames. I just reread the BSA policy written here:

http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

Any of us who says they've never questioned their faith is probably not being honest. I, myself have periods of agnosticism when I see things and wonder "what kind of loving God would allow this to happen". Then, other times, I look at the wonders of science and nature and wonder, "how could this have happened randomly and without divine guidance?" Raised in the ELCA (but that's another thread), I earned Eagle and the Pro Deo Et Patria (God and Country) award, and was baptized, confirmed, substitute organist, acolyte and finally President of the Congregation Council for two terms. But subsequent issues in my life have led me to question blind faith. When I see those who profess to be men of God committing child abuse. WHen I see those who swear that God (Allah) requires them to murder others. I have to question. Questioning is healthy, I think. Thomas questioned. As someone pointed out, even Jesus questioned on the cross. As I get older, those who make the most sense to me are the evangelicals on the radio on Sunday morning who point out that there are no "denominations" in the Bible...there is no need to filter or interpret the Word and create "manmade rules" to guide your faith. Being "unchurched" does not equal "unfaithful". One of my ASM's is unchurched, although his wife and son are Catholic. I once gave him a copy of "The Gospel of the Redman" and inscribed it "to one of my most religious friends". In my mind, how one lives and treats others (and Nature) is more important that dressing up and sitting in church every Sunday.

Sorry for rambling. The BSA policy is only as strict as its enforcement at the unit level. Everyone knows my position and no one yet has stripped me of my membership card. I have good friends who are gay. I wish that they could also experience Scouting. But I put up with the BSA policy because the boys I do reach are better off, I hope. I expect that the BSA will change its policy over time, as it has toward blacks and women.

Is it better for the boy to kick him out, or to continue to expose him to the wonders of Creation and hope he finds his way one day? It's up to the unit.