Forcing them to be scout led

The Adults in our Troop are have a goal to be a BLT.

This weeekend we had a great camping trip to a 57 acre island in the middle of a large man made lake used for flood control.

I'm dogged tired so please excuse any grammar problems.

We streesed Patrol cooking this weekend. We don't have them shopping for themselves yet but the Adults dream about it.

When the patrols cook by themselves how do they get cooking tools?

Do you have it arranged by Patrol back at home where ever you store it?

Does the QM allot it as needed back at home and then Patrols pack it themselves?

Do you bring alot of gear to the field and they get it from you after you get to your destination?

How many of you folks use patol boxes?

How many of you cook using the Troop method like we do?

In fact I had a Patrol Leader tell me yesterday that he hated when patrols cooked and worked only as patrols. I let him know 4H is a lovely organization(kidding)

The Rocking chair patrol made a Polish Trainwreck. We call dutch oven meals with meat potatoes and carrot combined a "Trainwreck" because of the jumbled nature of what's in the pot. A Polish Trainwreck is (from the bottom up) potatoes,cabbage,sweet corn and Kielbasa. Man, It was good. Apple pie in a 9in aluminum pan cooked in another dutch oven.with spray whipped cream. Crust needs a little work but trust me none of the pie went to waste.

Thank you in advance for you reply. I'm wondering what works for you Troop so we can sow the seeds for success and watch the boys do the rest.

For the most part, my son's troop does a decent job of patrol cooking and shopping. Here's what they do.

1) They have a patrol cooking box for every patrol, with all the basic cooking gear inside (spatulas, big spoons for stirring, knives, can openers, pots, pans, etc.). If the patrol is cooking something that requires special equipment then it is their job to bring it - but that's generally not an issue and they can just load their patrol cooking box into the troop trailer. All the patrols have the same type of stove (don't ask me, I don't know what brand) to work with, or they can do dutch oven (have to bring one separate from the cooking box- those aren't typically in the boxes because they're big and heavy) or open fire cooking too.

2) Patrols finalize a menu, turn it in for approval, and select a boy to do the patrol shopping, all a week or so in advance of the campout. They have a budget ($10/boy for the weekend x # of boys attending from their patrol). They are expected to stay within that budget and will be reimbursed for their expenses at the next meeting, as long as they turn in a receipt attached to their approved menu.

3) The troop provides another box and a large cooler for every patrol to store their food. The designated shopper takes these home a week or so before the campout and brings them back to the meeting after the campout. These generally include some stock items (seasoning, syrup, etc) and the shopper is supposed to check these items out to see what needs replacing/supplementing before he does his shopping.

4) The boys select a "head cook" for their patrol for the weekend (or sometimes just for the day and they rotate - it depends). The other boys will be expected to help too but that boy is in charge of the meal(s).

5) This all takes some training since half of the younger boys have never boiled water, let alone cooked dinner for 5-8 people. We're lucky in that there are older boys in the troop who are decent cooks and they have helped teach the younger ones (troop guides, etc.). Also patrol advisors keep an eye out for any really problematic food safety issues.

6) One key to success is really menu planning. Sometimes the boys turn in the least practical things and need a little coaching. Sometimes they need a "safe" environment within which to fail. I know, having gone through a couple of campouts where half the stuff they actually needed wasn't included on their shopping lists, my son's patrol got the hang of planning after that. And they didn't starve in the meantime, they just had to make some adjustments.

If the boys are used to troop cooking or adult cooking then this might be a hard thing to wean them from. But I've noticed that, while my son doesn't love cooking for the patrol and detests the shopping part, it has taught him organizational and leadership skills (as well as cooking skills) although I'm not sure he'd see it that way. Not to mention, he appreciates a "mom-cooked" meal so much more! So I'd say it is worth it.

Lisa'bob

Our troop only has one large patrol. We've tried several times to break the group into 2 patrols, but we only have 12 scouts on our roster, a couple of the older guys are not very active, and we usually only have about 6 on any outing. So, we have our PLC and one patrol.

To begin with, all of our troop's equipment is stored in our troop trailer. We used to haul that thing everywhere we went, but the price of gas has caused us to rethink. Also, the boys never really had to do much equipment planning for campouts since we brought everything with us and they could just go to the trailer and forage around for what they needed.

So, we have a smaller trailer and just recently the guys have had to plan what they need to bring and take it out of the big trailer. This includes tents, tarps, quonset hut stuff or dining fly, tables, stoves, propane tanks, coolers, lanterns - you get the idea.

Over the years we have had scouts with in the QM position, but they didn't actually have to do anything. So, by using the smaller trailer and requiring the guys to plan for what they need, our QM will now has a real job to do.

We have two patrols boxes - one for the boys and one for the adults. They contain plates, utensils for eating and cooking, cooking pots, cups, bowls, juice pitchers, strainers, can opener, etc. If the scouts want to use a dutch oven, they must remember to take one out of the trailer.

This method has resulted in a few disasters along the way: for instance, dutch oven cooking but they didn't put charcoal on the list. It has certainly be a learning experience for the guys.

Our scouts do prepare their own menu and shop for their own food. About 2 weeks out from a trip, those guys that are going get together and start planning their menu. The PL makes a duty roster so everyone knows who will be cooking and cleaning and when. The next week, last meeting right before the trip, the guys make sure the shopping list is completed and approved and a scout is assigned to do the shopping. This is usually a scout that still needs that requirement, but not always. Scout is given cash to cover $10 per scout and the shopping list. We also have a short note to that scout's parents letting them know that he needs to do the shopping and pay careful attention to his budget. This works well but sometimes we do have parents do the shopping themselves.

Adults plan our own menu. We always include something new and have the scouts try it. This has helped them develop more varied menus and to think beyond spaghetti and poptarts and to think about ways to cook using only one pot or with little or no cleanup (that's how they learned about baggie omelets).

Scouts have made some interesting mistakes along the way: Baggie omelets for breakfast, but they forget the baggies. Pancake mix is purchased that requires eggs and milk, not just water and they forget the eggs and milk. Spaghetti is great, but they would have preferred it with meat sauce, not just plain jar sauce. The spaghetti meal was also interesting in that they scouts in charge of cooking it did not read the label for the noodles. They had purchased a LARGE box of noodles and dumped the whole box into the boiling water - a fairly small pot of boiling water. What a gummy, sticky mess for them to clean - but, they have not forgotten the lesson learned!

Sowing the seeds of success is not easy. Letting the scouts plan and carry out their plans on their own will often result in some interesting weekends. It is much easier for us as adults to do everything and do it on time and perfectly. But, what would be the fun in that? And, what would the scouts learn? When I stepped up as SM almost 2 years ago, the biggest challenge I saw in our troop was for the adults to learn to allow the scouts to fail and for those scouts to learn to do things on their own. We step in for health and safety reasons, but we haven't had a scout starve to death yet over the weekend because the patrol forgot to bring the (insert menu item here).

Oh, yes, we've witnessed some spectacular failures. Interesting how the scouts remember and talk about those more than the flawless weekends.

Good luck to you and your troop.

You learn and retain more by making mistakes and correcting them (or working around them) than by doing it correctly.

>>If the boys are used to troop cooking or adult cooking then this might be a hard thing to wean them from. But I've noticed that, while my son doesn't love cooking for the patrol and detests the shopping part, it has taught him organizational and leadership skills (as well as cooking skills) although I'm not sure he'd see it that way. Not to mention, he appreciates a "mom-cooked" meal so much more! So I'd say it is worth it.

uz2bnowl writes:

How many of you cook using the Troop method like we do? In fact I had a Patrol Leader tell me yesterday that he hated when patrols cooked and worked only as patrols.

The quickest way to move from the "Troop Method" to the "Patrol Method" is to physically separate the Patrols as far as possible. Baden-Powell recommended that Patrols camp no closer than 100 yards apart!

Most Troops use the Troop Method because the closer the Patrols, the easier it is for the adults (or for the SPL in a "boy-led" Troop Method unit) to do the Patrol Leader's most difficult job for him: keeping discipline.

You could probably express that as a "scientific" formula: The strength of the Patrol Method increases with the distance between Patrols, divided by the charisma and maturity of the Patrol Leader :-)

When the patrols cook by themselves how do they get cooking tools?

When Patrols camp 300 feet apart, Quartermasters are perhaps more important to a Patrol's happiness than the Patrol Leader! A Patrol can get by with a bad leader as long as everyone is warm, dry, and well fed, but that security depends on having the right equipment.

A red-flag of "Troop Method" thinking is the idea that a single "Troop Quartermaster" can be responsible for all of the equipment for all of the far-flung Patrols, or that a qualified Scout is going to be interested in the difficult job of "Patrol Quartermaster" if he doesn't earn Advancement credit and get to wear a position patch for his efforts.

A Troop can have more than one Troop Quartermaster, so consider working with the Patrol Leaders to promote the most responsible "details man" in each Patrol to the rank of Troop Quartermaster (rather than Patrol Quartermaster). In return, each should be required to empty out his Patrol's boxes and check off each and every piece of equipment on both the Patrol equipment checklist and cook's equipment list before every campout.

To this end, every Troop Quartermaster should have his own clipboard (about $2) with a pen attached by string, and be supplied with a fresh checklist for every campout. Use the Patrol Camping Gear checklist on pages 226-227 of The Boy Scout Handbook to get started.

Be sure to avoid those heavy old wood Patrol Boxes. Rubbermaid tote boxes cost about $4 each and last for years. You will need a few of them for every Patrol, and be sure that each Patrol's totes are a different color.

Some Troops avoid the trap of lugging Patrol Boxes altogether. Note that on the above checklist the BSA recommends using backpacking stoves even for car-camping, which is very good preparation for when your Scouts get tired of the same old campsites every year and want to get out on the trail free from the chains of the parking lot.

Be sure to read Bob Geier's notes on Lightweight Patrol Equipment, see:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm

Kudu

Yah, I agree with Kudu, eh? If yeh want your patrols to act like patrols, then you need your gear and camping setup not to get in the way.

The troops that have effective patrols have separate patrol cook and camping gear for each patrol which is "theirs." It isn't shared. They're responsible for it, clean, dirty, whatever. When they camp, they take their tents, their dining fly, and their cookgear to their campsite. They pack it in cars (or the trailer); they unpack it. If they forget something, they forget it. Troop QM comes in only for occasional inspections or to replace/refurbish gear.

Don't expect kids to work in patrols if all their resources are organized as a troop. That would be dumb, eh?

Makin' a transition from troop cookin' to patrol cookin' can be tough. Who wants to do work when the adults used to do it all? And don't underestimate the amount of time you'll need to spend teachin' more boys to cook and clean. But as Lisa'bob suggests, they'll get more practice (in smaller doses) cooking for patrols, so they learn faster.

In smaller patrol cooking, you need to make things pretty simple and efficient for kids. Don't get into the big industrial kitchen whole-troop model. Think small-family style, eh? Cook and a helper do the cookin' and initial wash-up, everyone cleans their own plate and pitches in on a quick cleanup. Don't make it a chore, just an activity. Your kids will eventually appreciate that it's faster, so they can get to fun stuff, and they'll learn a lot about workin' together.

Few things as good as patrol cookin' for teachin' Scout Spirit.

As a follow up I was in the gear room Saturday and looked in the coolers we took.

THERE IS STILL FOOD IN THEM!!!!!!

5 PL's or former PL , one aspl, one spl, one former quartermaster and two first year scouts that think people are going to continue to wait on them like Cubs and you'd think one of those lads could have emptied the coolers?!?!!?!?

Wednesday night we have a COH, I'll have to let the boys know they have the makings of a science experiment going.

If anybody thinks there's a dead body in the building at least I'll know it's only fetid smelling baloney,lettuce, eggs,and other great stuff just a brewin'.

One of the things we helped our boys "learn" in patrol cooking is the benefit of sausage and bacon that is the pre-cooked kind. One patrol had sausage that they made in balls instead of patties (they thought it was cool) it never cooked all the way thru and the outside was burnt. That trip they didn't have sausage for breakfast, obviously! So now they get the pre-cooked stuff. It is a little more expensive but worth it. We also have found a store called ALDI's. It is a german based store (I've been told they are all over the place) Good prices, good food, and not TOO many choices. It helps since our boys buy the food as a patrol as well as cook as patrols.

There are some campouts, however, that are troop cooking. We just got back from a re-enactment at Fort George, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Canada. Great time..... We had 5 troops combined into one "company" for the the battles, so we decided to have one kitchen for the 5 troops. It worked out great. The boys got to learn about working with boys from other troops. The adults did the cooking so the boys could work on marching, etc. It is nice to combine different things, like some camps with patrol cooking and some with troop cooking. It just gives different perspectives. I also think it gets the boys to appreciate when we do the cooking for them.

We recently visited a troop during its Spring New Scout Camping Trip as a visiting Webelos 2.

The troops idea is that they get a bunch of new Scouts each spring. They will have varying amount of camping experience coming from different Packs. They want all the New Scouts to be successful so they plan a New Scout Camping trip. On this particular outing, they had 6 patrols plus the Rocking Chair patrol.

The troop printed up suggested menus planners. There were 3 options for each meal. The Sat evening meal included a dutch oven based dessert. The patrols were given the suggested menu planners a few weeks prior to the campout. The patrols selected meal choices from the suggested menu planner. A boy from each patrol was selected to buy the food. He was given a budget of about $10 per boy per weekend. Money was collected from each boy attending the campout PRIOR to the campout. It is non-refundable because that money is used to buy food. This eliminates collecting from people who said they would go but did not and food was bought to provide for them but they don't want to pay.

At the campout, each patrol was issued a patrol box, a dining fly with poles and ropes, and a collapsable picnic table. Each patrol was told by the SPL where it would set up camp. The first duty of each patrol was to set up their dining fly. Then they were allowed to move the patrol gear and personal gear underneath the dining fly.

Each patrol has a patrol box with a propane stove, group cooking pots and untensils. Boys provide they own personal plate/bowl, cup, and utensils. Cooks are selected ahead of time at the patrol meeting and charts are posted so everyone knows who is to cook or clean each meal.

At each meal, each patrol did all they own cooking and cleanup. The evening meal the Rocking Chair patrol got the charcoal going because they only brought one charcoal chimmny for all 7 patrols. Each patrol was issued a dutch oven Sat evening. The RC patrol made a dutch oven meal and a dutch oven dessert. All the boy patrols made a cobbler or cake in the dutch oven.

Nobody went hungry. There were a few burned pancakes and some spilled scrambled eggs. Each patrol learned the 3 pan method of cleaning and sanitizing cooking gear. This was a dry camp so the Rocking Chair patrol boiled water using a turkey fryer to limit potential scalds and conserve water.

The suggested menu planner had some very good suggestions.

- Instead of sandwich bread, use flour tortillas. They are already squashed so less packing issues. The sandwich can be rolled up and eaten for a change of pace. Also can be used to make breakfast burritos.

- Lunch should be a cold meal. Sandwiches, fruit, veggies and dip, etc. Keeps meal time relatively short and easy allowing time to rest or complete activities.

- Breakfast and evening meal are to be cooked. No poptarts, no hotdogs. Pancakes, scrambled eggs, bacon, sausage, hot chocolate, oatmeal, breakfast burritos, etc. for breakfast. Evening meal includes at least one dutch oven component.

My boy ate with the NSP. He liked all the food and had plenty to eat. The only issue he had was the boy who bought the food felt he was the Food Police and caused some patrol friction when it came to letting the boys eat the food HE bought. The issue of people snacking on things outside of the designated meal time can cause problems. Usually the other patrol members handle this themselves and the next campout, tighter control of the food is maintained to keep people from eating all the "good" stuff before supposed to or before others get a chance.

Lots of good comments here by many knowledgeable and experienced scouters. I have read many of your posts and respect you, your comments and opinions. I'm not looking for a fight or argument.

Some observations:

At the Boy Scout level, adults should NEVER, I mean N E V E R do the cooking for the boys. Patrols may want ot use a duty roster and rotate duties like cook, helper, clean up, etc. everyone cleans his own gear. One or two scouts shouldn't get stuck with cooking for the whole weekend, or doing dishes for that matter.

One way to break them of troop cooking is for the rocking chair to take the PLC on a separate campout and teach them. In between meals, they can hold PLC and do some planning and learning.

Patrol boxes are OK, but heavy. Rubbermaid tubs are fine, different colors are great idea, but label them too.

Maybe some Saturday morning, PL's, APL', SPL, ASPL, QM, SM, ASM get together and inventory the troop gear and divide it among the patrols, then label it. Adult shopping is fine, adult guidance on shopping is better. Adults have more experience at the store, so guide them.

Sorry Scoutmom111 - Pre-cooked food??????? You may as well bring TV's, TV dinners and microwaves. How hard is it to cook bacon or sausage? Let's add the Lay-Z-Boy to the trailer.

Snacks outside of meals should generally not be allowed. It can lead to squabbling over something, ruin appetites, invite critters and ants. In the South, we have fire ants and they are not nice. If scouts want snacks, add them to their menu and have them as a patrol.

So cook by patrol, say grace and eat by patrol. If a scout is caught with "contraband" (snacks) he shares it with his fellow patrol members on the spot. If he didn't bring enought for everyone, he shares what he has. He won't bring it again.

By the way, when I was a scout, we almost never started fires with matches, always used flint and steel or some other method first. We never had stoves, we used wood or charcoal.

An no electronic games, period. OK for car travel, but not once we arrive at camp.

Gonzo1

Gonzo, this is not meant to argue. It's just that there's usually more than one side to a story.

Precooked food has its place. Think backpacking and Leave No Trace. Where to put all the grease that cooks out of sausage and bacon? It's not healthful to eat, and it's a mess to haul out, no matter how hard you try to stay clean. Precooked also minimizes prep time - too often cooking takes up an inordinate amount of time on an outing. Keep it simple and the outing is more fun for everyone.

Snacks for between meals? Absolutely. Every scout should Be Prepared with his own small stash of snacky stuff for between meals. Think Clif Bars, GORP, and the like (not candy bars, Gatorade and so forth). Depending upon activity and a person's own metabolism, there can be a real physical need for added nutrition between meals. A quick nibble mid-afternoon or whenever can do a lot to stave off hunger and keep the body working. This is especially important in cold weather. Note that every boy should carry his own. Snacks are not a menu item. A good Scout will also be willing to share his own with someone else.

Oldsm, I'm not arguing either, please take it as it is. I also agree there is more than one side to a story.

Your comments:

Think backpacking and Leave No Trace. Where to put all the grease that cooks out of sausage and bacon? It's not healthful to eat, and it's a mess to haul out,

scoutmom111 did notmention backpacking or LNT, so I assumed plop camping. Regardless, IMHO, scouts should generally not be pre-cooking anything. Instead of backpacking with bacon or sausage, how about backpacking with fruit? How about pita bread, tortilla or something else. I'm not saying that scouts can't bring pre baked bread, they should, but we also bake cakes though, don't we? Besides, how hard is it really to cook bacon or sausage. You could but the leanest available, then absorb the grease into paper towels or newpaper, zip lock it and pack it out.

I agree that pre-cooking minimizes prep time, it also minimizes cook time, so let's bring in the Burger King too.

I completely and vigorously disagree with the notion that scouts should bring any food on their own. I believe it's just wrong. Why should one have something the others don't have (food wise, not gear wise). It decreases appetite and invites critters. If you're cold weather camping, plan it on the menu, everyone gets the same stuff in the same amount. I've done (we've all done) plenty of camping, I don't feel the need to graze between meals, none of my scouts do either.

Remember, I agree to many sides of the story.

Gonzo1

This is all good.... If all troops did everything the same, we wouldn't need roundtables...this forum.... hey, we'd only need one very large troop!!! **smile** The pre-cooked bacon/sausage was what the boys came up with as a solution to the problem of the sausage not getting done. It's a boy led troop and a boy led solution. Our troop has a large variety of activities. We have a one week service camp at Mackinaw Island where the boys have service to the fort, do all the state flags on the island and help tourist. The adults do the cooking on events where we very tightly schedule the boys. Summer camp we eat in the mess hall. Camporees and troop camps it all patrol cooking. Winter polar bear is individual cooking (backpack stoves). When the boys plan an outing, they figure out how the cooking will be done... and just telling the adults to do it isn't an option. Hey, we have even been known to do the pizza thing. Especially after a 7 hour trip into Canada (for the first night only!!!!) I like that we have a variety of ways to handle the cooking issue. It helps the boys think outside the box. I really don't want to hear (and neiter do the boys) that "that is the way we've always done it!) Tradition has it's place, and so does innovation. Everything in moderation.

Scoutmom111

I'm smiling, I even chuckled.

I agree, if everyone did it my way (or your way or anybody elses way) we wouldn't need these discussion areas and exchanges of ideas and information.

Thanks for elaborating, but I still think boys scouts (not cubs) need to do the cooking, maybe I'll cave in a little and say that maybe an adult could help, but that's puching it for me.

Thanks for elaborating about the different events, etc. I'm also glad to see a boy found problem and a boy solution.

I hope you realize I'm not personally attacking you.

G