Uniform Not Required

So, as Ed has so adroitly pointed out, the uniform is not required and he is right, it isn't. The uniform is one of the 8 methods of scouting and if the uniform is not required, are any of the other 7 required? If the patrol method is not required, why do we get new members seeking how to move their troop from being troop based to patrol based? Why do we care if the Troop teaches merit badges and shortcuts Adult Association? Indeed, if the BSA program is as open and flexible as some proclaim it to be, why do we have people comming to the forum for answers? Why is not our answer tactfully there is no answer, there are no rules, if your CO says its fine and the COuncil recharters you every year why do we care about what could be termed minutia? We have been told there are basically no rules for BSA insurnace, it covers you virtually no matter what, why is there such angst about getting the program right? Why not let Boards of Review grill scouts for hours over a requirement 3 ranks back? What is the harm if thats the way the CO wants it done?

Why do we seek answers if there are no questions?

OGE, are those questions rhetorical? What are you suggesting? It's tough to tell when you can only read a post because none of that non-verbal communication makes it thru.

It sounds to me that you are suggesting that if the uniform is a roadblock to a young person participating in scouting, a unit should not attempt to fulfill its mission and vision for that young person... of preparing them to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law, and to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law.

The methods are tools for achieving the mission and vision of scouting. They are not the mission and vision of scouting.

If one of the 8 methods, all equal, can be viewed as not required, then what is required? There are many ways a youth could be taught to make ethical decisions over the course of their lifetime, and if the methods are not required why bother with any of them?

Because they are still tools for achieving the goals of scouting as described in the BSA mission and vision statements. Our unit practices all the methods of scouting. However, we don't confuse the methods with what our goal is.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

So, if the methods are not required, the boy has only a uniform shirt, and his troop was adult led troop method, does that mean he doesn't get his Eagle?

That would depend on whether it is an objective of the chartered org. Remember, we only do Scouting as a tool of the CO to meet their needs. The parts of Scouting we choose to do and the way we do them is determined by the CO or defacto designee.

jblake47 said, "So, if the methods are not required, the boy has only a uniform shirt, and his troop was adult led troop method, does that mean he doesn't get his Eagle?"

Those are all examples of the methods of scouting. All the methods are equally important. However, the aims (including our mission) of scouting are more important than any method. They are why we serve (or at least they should be).

If the only way for your program to produce a young men who are physically, mentally, and emotionally fit; have a high degree of self-reliance as evidenced in such qualities as initiative, courage, and resourcefulness; have personal values based on religious concepts; have the desire and skills to help others; understand the principles of the American social, economic, and governmental systems; are knowledgeable about and take pride in their American heritage and understand our nation's role in the world; have a keen respect for the basic rights of all people; and are prepared to participate in and give leadership to American society is to ensure that they make Eagle scout, then chances are your program is failing 98% of your youth (assuming that the same percentage of youth in your unit earn Eagle as the national average, and as FScouter would say, the goals of the CO are commensurate with the goals of the BSA).(This message has been edited by MarkS)

It is rare that I disagree with FScouter or OGE along with a few others who I believe they have probably the clearest understanding of the BSA Scouting program. But I have to disagree wit FScouter on this passage..."The parts of Scouting we choose to do and the way we do them is determined by the CO or defacto designee."

The CO each year in the Charter agreement, agrees to use and the program of the BSA, in order to help achieve the shared goals of the CO and the BSA.

As Volunteer leaders we agreed to follow the BSA program as well. So while the Co has influence over the flavor of the program, we are all expected to be delivering the same methods (in varioous and portions) in order to achieve the same Aims and the same Mission of the BSA, through the CO.

An example of that flavor difference could be seen in a unit chartered by the LDS church as opposed by one charterd by the American Legion. While one might be open to the general public one could be for CO members only. Where oone might be heavily faith based the other might be more patriotic in the nature of their activities.

But both use the same BSA Methods in order to achieve the same BSA Aims and Mission.

I like OGE's questions a lot. The answer I believe is that there are over a million volunteers and some help the youth and the program grow and some do not. Some are interested in the unit they serve and some are interested in the larger view of the community and how it is affected by the quality of each scouting unit. And some just like to be "in charge" of others in some corner of their lives.

When leaders do a bad job in one unit, it will make no difference to a unit centered leader in another unit. But to the scouters who are concerned about the youth in the community as a whole it will make a big difference.

When leaders do not follow the program it has repercussions on all scouting programs and on all units.

Leaders who understand the program realize the interconnectiveness of scouting. When a youth has a bad time in scouting, it is unlikely he will support scouting as an adult. He will likely not let his kids join scouting, he will likely not become a volunteer, and more importantly he will likely not grow up with the same values of scouting. For every youth a unit dissappoints we lose the opportunity to reach that person as a youth and as an adult, and we lose the people he will have influence over for years to come.

Just imagine the amount of damage that one poorly led unit can do in just a few years, and then multiply it by the number of poorly led units you have heard of just on this forum in a year.

Using the methods of scouting are important because it is you best guarantee that every scout can have a positive, fun, and productive time in Scouting. And every time a unit fails a scout it can negatively effect every other unit in a negative way.

The Aims of Scouting is what the BSA program accomplishes, the Methods are what the how the Scouting program accomplishes the Aims. The Mission is why we do what we do.

Without the use of the Methods it is not Scouting. They are the the ingredients for a recipe with a known outcome.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ozarktrailsbsa.org/downloads/annual_charter_agreement.pdf

From the Agreement:

"Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America."

That to me says the Chartered Partner's policies come ahead of BSA's.

"Encourage the unit to participate in outdoor experiences, which are vital elements of Scouting."

That to me says the Outdoor Method is a bit more important than the other 7 Methods of Boy Scouting, the other 6 Methods of Cub Scouting (using outdoor in the Activity context) and the other 6 Methods of Venturing (using outdoor in the High Adventure context).(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

John,

It says "conduct a Scouting Program" it does not mention the Co's program. Well, what makes it a scouting program? According to the BSA its the Methods of Scouting that differentiates the Scouting program from other programs.

And it does not give priority of the CO's policies and guidelines over those of BSA's. It gives them equal importance. It says when conducting the Scouting Program that the rules of both the CO and BSA are to be followed.

Bob White said, "...[the annual charter agreement] does not give priority of the CO's policies and guidelines over those of BSA's. It gives them equal importance. It says when conducting the Scouting Program that the rules of both the CO and BSA are to be followed."

The agreement does seem to give priority to the CO where it says that the council will respect the aims and objectives of the [chartering] organization and offer the resources of Scouting to help in meeting those objectives.

Are the methods rules or are they resources (tools) or are they both?

I think they are tools, not rules, but that doesn't mean I don't want my unit to follow them.

The Methods, Aims and Mission are the stuff that the program is made of. The Poices and Guidelines are rules and regulations of the BSA and the CO.

We follow the scouting program (Methods, Aims, Mission) and abide by the rules of the CO and the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If the responses to the thread I started a few weeks back about Scouting and the Chartering Organization are anything to go by?

It would seem that most CO's have little or no idea about what is going on in their units.

I don't see the methods of Scouting as rules.

I see them as goals.

Something that we the adults and each individual Scout should be working toward.

Every now and then for a while it might be that everything falls into line and a Scout and the unit might have all these ducks in a row.

On the same hand that same unit might for a while have everything fall apart and need to start over. This is because different Scouts have different needs.

Of course this is very different than the Scoutmaster who tells the Scouts and their parents that "We don't need to worry about ....(Fill in any of the methods) because we don't do it that way".

This to my way of thinking is just wrong.

While I don't know much about other organizations, I feel sure that there must be other youth organizations that have the same aims as the BSA, but don't employ the same methods.

Not to put too fine a point on it. If anyone isn't happy doing things the way that they need to be and should be done? They really should go find an organization that is a better fit for them. What they are doing clearly isn't Scouting and who knows they might be happier serving the youth in some other organization.

While I don't see it ever happening.

I do at times wonder what would happen if when the DE has his or her annual meeting with the Head of the Chartering Organization, were to say? "I very sorry to have to inform you but your unit is not following the BSA program."

Eamonn.

As far as I can tell, the uniform is the only method that is not required. Nowhere is it written that any of the other methods are not. If fact, it written that "A Scout troop functions best when all eight methods are employed".

I think the reason that we all ask questions in the forum is because we are all as volunteers motivated to do our best and are seeking ways in which we can employ all eight methods successfully. As volunteers we have no profit motive, so we seek personal satisfaction through our own success and hopefully the success of others.

It is obvious from the many posts here in this forum that there are troops that do not use all eight methods; that there are scout leaders who choose to modify the program to meet their own standard of success. But there is a limit to how far you can go - a point at which you can no longer be recognized as conducting a Scouting program, as required by your charter.

Having no prior knowledge, if you walked into a meeting room, or an outdoor campsite, and saw a group of people involved in an activity, how could you tell they were boy scouts? What would you look for? The most obvious thing would be uniforms - funny that its the one method not required.

"As far as I can tell, the uniform is the only method that is not required"

Nah, the only one that is required is adult association and you can probably find a way to get rid of that one too.

Advancement certainly isn't required.

Patrol method? Not with all those adult led troops out there.

Outdoors? Nah, we can just meet and play basketball.

Leadership development? See Patrol Method

You can get rid of adult association too by just having the SM give the boys the basketball at the beginning of the meeting and then he retires to the bleachers to drink coffee with the CC.