are committees designed to give us headaches or what?

we have been trying to get back to being a 'boy lead' troop.

i got tired of the endless talk and little action on the committee and left it last spring to be an ASM when I thought we were well on the road to change. But it seems that while the Boys have started taking back leadership - the committee doesn't want to LET them.

Under our new SM, the boys researched and prepared and came up with a plan for the coming year - it wasn't the best plan - some old stuff, some new - but for a first REAL attempt at planning their own stuff, the SM and AMS thought they did pretty well.

the committee - esp a particular person, tore it apart. that person happens to be our Charter Org rep AND used to be our district Commissioner as well. She stepped down this year because of health problems, but has become more involved in our troop, instead. She has been in scouting a lONG time - SAYS she wants 'boy lead' - yet wants to dictate where the boys go to summer camp and where they go camping (yet she is older and not in good health, so she never goes camping with them.

the end result was that the committee meeting took 2 - 3 hrs, and they did not 'approve' the boy's plan. Same thing happened last year, and we've struggled with committee meetings and fumbling with last minute approval of most of our campouts because of this nonsense all year.

Now, because they did not approve it - two planned campouts are up in the air, pending the next committee meeting in Oct.

I have pushed for committee training, for all kinds of training - but the committee members are mostly new parents who are still feeling their way. the few older ones feel they've been at it long enough that they don't 'need' training - they think they know what they are doing. ( NOT!) They ALL tend to trust ans follow this woman because of her long scouting experience. But doing things the 'old' way doesn't necessarily mean they are the 'correct' way.

I've gone to all the training I can find (everything except Woodbadge) and done alot of reserch, asked alot of questions - I can't find anything, anywhere that says the committee should be able to veto or decide WHAT the boys do and WHERE they go - only that they should advise and guide - and in fact - the SM is responsible for most of that. It is my understanding that the committee should be looking at the plans only with an eye to conflicts, safety, transportation, reservations, making sure the troop has trained adults and the financial means to make something happen - that kind of thing.

I think this would normally be refered to our District commissioner - but being as she is a past commissioner herself - i don't know how it would be taken.

Any suggestions?

Laura,

I think you've got it right. Now all you need is half the committee to agree with you, and regardless what the icon says, you can make the program work.

Keep working on the folks on the committee. Either get them trained, or unofficially "train" them yourself. Almost all of the program, when described properly and supported with the "why" makes sense. People of intelligence will understand if you lead them there.

Good luck!

Mark

We have a similar problem. The committee wants to micromanage the program. I spend much of my time at committee meetings saying, "that's the SM's call."

If they want to go camping, go camping regardless of whta the committee says! It's the boys program, not the adults. If this one person doesn't like it, too bad.

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

I like FOG's approach. Go with your strengths. If your Scoutmaster "gets it" try to defer to his judgement as much as possible.

Has the group been through Troop Committee Challenge together? Try to set it up. I wouldn't be suprised if old guard balks at it, but if so take the committee members training individually. (I've found that "do you want to go to training with me" works a lot better than "you need to go to training.") The other thing to do is to politick one-on-one with the other members of the committee and try to get them to "see the light." You and the SM can tag-team the other committee members, especially on campouts.

I like Ed's philosophy of going camping when the youth plan to go camping. Unfortunately, I'm charged with following the policies of the BSA and if a committee doesn't sign off on the tour permit, the outing doesn't happen.

The fact that the chartered organization representative is the one who resists complicates the matter. Perhaps the District Commissioner and District Executive should have a meeting with the Insitutional Head to discuss the performance of the COR, but I can't tell from my chair at my desk . . . it's a local council matter.

Personally, I feel the role of the troop committee should be to do everything it's members possibly can to facilitate the plan developed by the boys under the leadership of the SPL and Scoutmaster.

To answer the original question -- are committees designed to give us headaches or what? -- I used to think so. However, I've been through many BSA professional training sessions and some of them involve exercises in synergy.

Synergy is the theory that groups come up with better solutions than individuals. I attacked each exercise with the full and cocky knowledge that I would score better than the group as a whole. Um -- I was wrong every time. When it comes to a group, or committee if you will, the sum of the knowledge of the individuals is less than the sum of the knowledge of the group.

Unless, of course, the group allows itself to be governed by the loud voice of a single individual. Then something sociologists call "Groupthink" takes place and what you have resembles the Bay of Pigs Invasion -- where one person thought it was a great idea and, although everyone else disagreed, no one said anything contrary for fear of retribution from the individual.

DS

What's not clear to me is does this COR get a vote on the Troop Committee? If so, she is only one vote. If not, does she have veto power over Troop Committee decisions?

Sounds like she needs to be spending her time at District Committee meetings where she DOES get a legitimate voice (and vote!), and not be micromanaging troop affairs...that's power that has already been delegated to the Troop leadership when the COR signs and approves their registrations.

It's a touchy situation for a number of reasons -

In 2001 & 2, our troop weathered a BIG storm of adult infighting - where this woman and i, among others, were strong voices of the 'winning side' - to return to boy-lead and BSA programming, instead of the 'ole boy's club' the troop had become over the last decade. At the time, i was surprised to find her supporting us, as she came across as very old fashioned in her ideas, but she did. It is turning out that while she agrees in principal - her idea of boy-lead is very different than that of some of the rest of us. Tho the troop survived and is stronger - the fighting left many in the troop wary of adult disagreement, and some boys and families left the troop - active adult leadership was lost, and recruitment suffered.

At the time, this person was also our district commisioner AND COR. She has been COR for over 10 yrs, and only became truly active on the committee when the upset happened and we had to find a new SM. I don't know when she left being District Commisioner - perhaps recently - as she is seriously ill and may be cutting back on her district responsibilities.

She is a very dedicated scouter. She's probably been in scouting in this area for 30 - 40 years - her sons are grown. One son was our interim ASM, and is now the advancement chair on our committee. but they both tend want to do things 'the way they always have done them' and to be somewhat closedminded and controlling. She has taken alot of training, including Woodbadge, and if she DID take committee challenge - She'd probably interpret the BSA's carefully non-specific language to mean the committee SHOULD be telling the boys where to go on trips and when. She is a badge counselor for the citizenship badges and other difficult badges, Very active in the district and council on countless levels and has received many scouting awards. In other words - she should KNOW better.

Her experience, dedication, strong mindedness and lastly - her age and illness make it difficult for anyone to fight her. All the newer parents in the troop, most truly active less than 6 months,are so in awe of her that they hesitate to disagree with her - heck,they don't even think to question it, they are so new. most joined after the hazing incident at camp this summer. Also, they are USED to telling the boys what to do - as in cubs and at home - it's VERY hard to let go of 'control' for alot of adults. This 'boy lead' idea is tough to do at first - and we've had some major stumbling blocks.

I have suggested, multiple times over the years, that we do committee challenge within the troop. It is always 'it's a good idea but we don't have time' They spend HOURS in committee meeting once a month, and don't want to come in another night, nor do they feel they can take time from the meeting - meetings that go NOWHERE. I don't suppose it occurred to them that if the committee was TRAINED & KNEW what it was doing - the meetings wouldn't be so endlessly LONG! (and useless!)

the SM is also new, and has not had alot of training - but he is trying hard and attending all roundtables and absorbing as much as he can. He is reading and learning and keeping an open mind and supporting the boys. he is more patient than i am!LOL! Although he's also very frustrated with the committee, he's feeling his way in a new role, too.

I just get so frustrated when I realize that the adults bog down the process. my heart just hurts to watch our SPL, who is an enthusiastic kid and a solid scout - but sensitive - get torn down when he has to face that committee alone and get all the PLC's plans torn down. While he does a great job - he just doesn't think on his feet fast enough to bandy words with a whole room full of adults.

as i look back on the past year - the troop did few campouts (and summer camp) that the commitee approved in time. everything else either fell apart or was cancelled. We did push through some replacement trips at the last minute - when I took back the job of activities and worked directly with the SPL and PLC. I admit, I can be a pushy person. when its a case of no trip for the boys unless the adults are pushed - I push. it doesn't always make me popular, and I'm not always right. however, if the committe had done it's job - they wouldn't be questioning, canceling and rescheduling outings the week before they're supposed to happen!

Have the SM & and ASM sign the tour permit then you don't need a committee signature!

I don't have much time on this...but the committee is not required to vote on anything as I read it in the committee guide book. The scouts decide on what they are to do and present it to the committee. Then the commitee does it's best to make it happen if it is reasonable.

If it is unreasonable the only reason it gets that far is because the SM let it. The boys run the troop, the committee is there to support the troop, the SM delivers the progrom. I've seen this before...been there done that. It's not much furn, it's really the boys troop...the PLC needs to decide who, what, when, where, how!!!

Eagle Foot

I don't have much time on this...but the committee is not required to vote on anything as I read it in the committee guide book. The scouts decide on what they are to do and present it to the committee. Then the commitee does it's best to make it happen if it is reasonable.

If it is unreasonable the only reason it gets that far is because the SM let it. The boys run the troop, the committee is there to support the troop, the SM delivers the progrom. I've seen this before...been there done that. It's not much furn, it's really the boys troop...the PLC needs to decide who, what, when, where, how!!!

Eagle Foot

Ed,

You might want to read the tour permit again. It specifically requires a signature of a committee member. ASM doesn't count.

Laura, is there any chance that you could have a private talk with the COR? Express your concern to her, beginning with your knowledge of her desire to do what's right for the boys. Ask if you can then explain to her your understanding of how to do that, and then ask her where you might be wrong. She could then see that she is not letting the boys run things, or she could try to change your thinking, or she could get mad. But I think if you sit with her, praising her dedication first and foremost, then explaining that the boys are trying to lead the troop by planning, and then that you though it should be that way, but perhaps you are wrong--so how so? Gently, kindly, firmly, but do it for the sake of the boys. Noone need ever know why she lightens up should that happen. She may see, when not on the spot, that approving these things isn't so bad, and let her do it without your taking credit. She saves face, and the boys get what they want. I know I might not be clear, but I'm trying to think through what you have shared here and to figure out the best approach. Good luck!(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Advance,

Yup you're right. My bad!

Thanks

I think Eagle Foot hit the nail on the head! The PLC decides what the Troop does & the committee provides the means. No vote necessary by the committee.

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

The troop is in the 'habit' of having the committee approve the yearly agenda and trips.

Generally, a permit is not necessary for EVERY trip - as we have an annual permit filed.

When I was Activities coordinator, & on the committee, i would sign any permit and just take it to the SM to sign - no problem. When I left the committee - but still handled Activities until they found someone else - same thing - except I would just take the permit to the CC to sign and the SM - and then fax it over.

for the immediate trips, our annual permit is enough - but it just leaves a bad feeling all around if we go off and do a trip without following the established habit of having the adults agree before hand.

I keep trying to give the message to the SM and the other adults who agree with me - that if the boys come up with a complete enough program, we back it and they present it with an attitude of 'this is it' - that eventually the committee holdouts will back down. My feeling is that they need to TAKE possession of THEIR program, with adult backing - that the committee will never GIVE it to them. But the adults and the older boys aren't 2willing, yet, to push that hard, i guess.

As for talking to the COR - i have tried. I really believe her illness and other things are affecting her - She's just not someone who can be swayed, once she's decided to be stubborn. She can be a great ally - and a worse enemy.