Climbing instructor training - Help

The boys in our troop are planning a climbing trip later this spring/summer in Central NH. After taking the Climb Safe training I came away with a question regarding the need for a certified instructor attending any outdoor climbing trip. I realize this does not apply to commercial indoor climbing walls. For the Central NH trip we have made arrangements to have 3 very experienced climbers with us (20 years of experience each) and we will have at least 4 adults that have gone through Climb Safe and a course taught by an indoor climbing facility on belaying. Will this satisfy our training and instructor training requirements for the Central NH trip? If not, how do I get the training accomplished?

Hard to say, Troop82. How many kids are yeh talkin' about? What's their level of experience? How familiar are the climbers with the area? How familiar are they with working with kids? With teaching novices?

The guideline for climbing leader is that the person should have training from one of the major national bodies or a college/university outdoor program. Do any of your climbers fit that description? If not, what do they have to demonstrate equivalent experience working in a youth climbing environment?

Generally speaking, the indoor rock gym belay instruction is pretty worthless, IMHO. Outdoor climbing is considerably different. So I wouldn't consider those four adults as leaders/instructors for supervision purposes. That means you're really relying on the three climbers for all of the instruction and supervision. If one of 'em is an experienced former guide who has a lot of experience working with young people and novices and he has a good working relationship with da other two, then I'd say you were golden (as long as you don't have too many kids and the climbers know the area). OTOH, if all of the climbers are just recreational sport climbers who don't have any formal training or haven't worked with youth or novices, then I think yeh have a problem.

Given your area, your council may have a climbing director yeh can call and talk to about this stuff. Philmont Training Center also runs a 1-week climbing director's clinic every summer. UNH and Dartmouth probably have programs as well. But this is not da sort of training you take in a weekend, eh?

So I'd start with a call to your council climbing director.

B

"So I'd start with a call to your council climbing director. "

Excellent advice Beavah.

As a BSA Climbing Instructor, I could write a few paragraphs on this, but I think that sums it up nicely and would defer to a climbing director. A CD will be more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone here will (unless we have a CD on the forums).

Climb On Safely and a course on belaying does not qualify one as an instructor. Neither does 20 years of climbing experience, although one would hope that with that much experience they would have taken the time to get instructor training, whether with the BSA or one of the many other recognized training sources.

Certainly, you should find out what instructor training they do have (if any) and run it by your council climbing director.

Ok, I'm going to revel myself as I directed Troop82NH to come to this forum for the answers. Reason being, he asked it of me, I asked it of the Council Training Chair, we received the canned answer of "You must follow the G2SS" as if it were the Holy Grail..

Realizing climbing is more serious then ignoring the laser tag rules, I wanted to see what you guys have to say.. I know that the G2SS is only a guide, and should be looked to as excellent reference, but not something that if not followed your insurance is null & void, because it is just a guide, with no ties to our insurance. Except for a small list of no, nos like sky diving, which are now not in bold face so harder to figure out what that list is..

It sounds like this troop has been looking to the safety of their scouts during their planning. They did not just decide Lets go rock climbing, this weekend, and run of to "Widow Maker" Gorge.. They found themselves 3 experienced climbers. They have spent a few months with their troop meetings working on climbing skills and also going to a climbing wall (which as you say is not the same, but when you have to begin somewhere, is a beginning), then had plans for several trips working out small and building in experience.. I just hate them recieving a canned answer..

I did send something off to a young adult that was in my troop who is currently going to college for some sort of outdoor adventure guide and who loves rock climbing, I would be shocked if he is not certified, but I do not know what he has lined up for summer work.. Normally he lines up guide work at an outdoor youth program.

So from reading your responses, due to the seriousness of the activity, you guys are understandably hesitant to just say.. Yeah, go out there.. Have fun.. I know Beavah is the first one to shoot down the G2SS as being anything more than just a guide.. If he is hesitant, then I would listen to him.. But what I am reading is that it is due to the serious of the event, and your lack of personally knowing the 3 adults with the 20 years experience, and what their skills and experience is.. This is understandable as it is a serious event.. But you are not pointing to the words in G2SS and saying that, that is the final word..

Troop82 I will let you know if I hear from my friend with the son who is I am sure is certified.. Do not know if we have a Council Climbing Director, but you can look into that, he may take the time to look at what skills your 3 instructors have that would make them a fine choice, or may not have the time, so push back to the canned answer of G2SS.. The other thing I would suggest is going to round Table and asking around to see if anyone there knows of someone with the certification in our district whom you may be able to talk into helping you out.

I was hoping for better news for you, but I trust in the advice from these guys.. Beavah is a well know charactor on these boards, and gives us the lawyer perspective when needed.. Norules is newer, but has offered some worthy advice..

You need folks who are trained in outdoor climbing. Indoor climbing gyms and rock walls are "controlled environments" and have a lot of safety feature built in. The outdoors doesn't.

I've been trained as a BSA COPE and Climbing Director. Even when my cert was current and I was doing that on a regular basis, I would NOT, repeat NOT, do true climbing as there are so many variables involved, that only a properly trained person could handle the situations that may arise. BSA climbing certs only cover the basics, you really need to go outside the BSA for what you plan to do.

I was fortunate in that when I was in the UK, I "absailed" off the Cliffs of Dover with some wiht many years of expereince and anyone would consider an expert on the matter. I've heard some of the stories of things he's seen happen, and not only in training and combat, but in the civilian world.

Someone posted in another scouting forum that Climb on Safely is being adjusted to provide a specific ratio of Qualified Instructors for an outdoor climb (not towers). The change will be similar to what is required at camps. 1 instructor + 1 instructor per 6 scouts. According to the post, it is effective immediately, though I have not seen any changes to published materials yet.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

Sounds like a nice progression for da boys, moosetracker. I'd do somethin' similar, starting with ground school and then moving to a gym. The more yeh train the boys the more yeh can do, and the safer you will be in the field. Safety is always enhanced when the participants have more knowledge.

I agree with nolesrule, eh? Even if he is a Seminoles fan. For climbing activities yeh need to keep a pretty high supervisor to participant ratio.

So I'd return to your 3 instructors. They should be 1) very familiar with the climbing area being used, 2) have real experience workin' with novices and kids, and 3) have some preparation from a recognized agency. Number 3 is just because da self-taught folks often have holes in their understanding and procedures (as demonstrated by their accident rate).

Now, the thing yeh should be aware of is that there is no recognized, portable "certification" for climbing instructors. It just doesn't exist, short of da AMGA programs which are for Denali-level guides. So yeh have to use your judgment. For just basic top roping, I'd be inclined to accept anyone who has worked for any commercial provider of outdoor climbing experiences if they had an instructor training program.

Beavah