Fines for Untrained Leaders

Our council has been in turmoil for the last couple of weeks.

It has been suggested by National that we sell one of our 3 council camps due to financial difficulties.

A Unit Leader wrote that due to unresolved issues with his Unit not following BSA guidelines he is stepping down to not put himself or family into an unwanted position.

He asks the question Who is supposed to help and/or make sure things are followed in the BSA guidelines and help pack and troops that are not following those guide lines

and make sure all the leaders are receiving training?

Effective Sept. 1 all registered leader are required to be fully trained for their position for the Unit to recharter next year.

He has made the suggestion to fine units for every untrained leader/committee member they have and even for infraction to BSA policies.

Effective Sept. 1 all registered leader are required to be fully trained for their position for the Unit to recharter next year.

He suggests that these fines be set aside and used to keep the camp.

I dont agree with the idea of fines but with amount of Units using the Cafeteria Style Scouting approach and the number of Eagle Mills I have run into I think something needs to be done.

He asks the question Who is supposed to help and/or make sure things are followed in the BSA guidelines and help pack and troops that are not following those guide lines

and make sure all the leaders are receiving training?

A: That would be the Commissioner staff. The CO can insist that all unit leaders receive training, since they are the ones who approve unit leaders.

The Council has no authority to "fine" units for non-compliance with BSA policies. It can, however revoke the charter if the terms of the charter agreement are not being upheld.

It would be the committee chairman and COR that ensure BSA policies are followed and the program is being used properly. The unit commissioner is there to help answer questions and point to resources.

CNY,

I think you and I know our council said that they won't recharter units if the principal leader is not trained, however in the 2 northern districts the last poll we did was that 50% of the leaders were untrained. So with the councils numbers going down already do you really think they will dump 50-75 units?

It seems that a good number of Councils are jumping on this mandatory training band-wagon.

As I have posted before I'm not in favor of it.

In a lot of the old movies, we see the car speeding to the hospital with the lady about to give birth any minute. The cops pull them over and next thing we see is the police cars escorting them to the hospital at high speed.The final scene is a happy couple holding a beautiful baby who they want to name after the policeman in charge. Fade to "They all live happily ever after.

My big problem with this mandatory stuff is that once you post a rule and a consequence, you have two choices:

*You stick to it.

* Or you make so many exceptions that the rule and the consequence become meaningless.

In theory this mandatory training seems like it will make everything better.

I wonder if:

The people who present the Training's are going to be willing to present more training's?

At times when the people who work weekends and odd hours are going to be available to take the training? These trainers as a rule are people who also have other roles in Scouting.

If Councils /Districts have enough quality people to present worth while training's?

Attending a poorly planned and poorly presented training just to get the card and the patch is a waste of everyones time, and does nothing to help the Scouts we serve.

How accurate the Council Training Records are?

When I tried to find out who was and wasn't trained in our Council, I tried looking at the records and they were in such a bad state that they were about useless.

While FScouter is correct when he states that "the committee chairman and COR that ensure BSA policies are followed and the program is being used properly."

I have to wonder if in fact these people are trained? Many CC's and even more COR's are not trained and know little about training.

When I was Council Training Chairman, I asked all the District Training Chairs to do an inventory of training (After I found out how bad the Council record keeping was!)

In the end we we sent a note in with the rechartering packet asking leaders to tell us what training they had taken and when?

Some people said that this wasn't the right thing to do. But my opinion was that if we can't trust the Scouter's? Who can we trust?

I like to think that over the years I have and do support the Council, not only with FOS and James E.West donations, but in many other ways.

Still if the Council were ever to send me anything that even looked suspiciously like a fine, I'd be inclined to tell them where they could stick it.

If Councils with mandatory training are willing to be like the police who provide a motor escort to the pregnant lady and ensure that they (the Council) is doing every thing possible to make training available when the people who need trained are available and that each and every training is worth while, I might change my opinion.

The Council also needs to inform each and every new leader that there is an expectation that they will take training and how long each training takes before they accept the membership fee.

I'd also like to see each and every Board Member be fully trained -But that might be asking too much!!

Eamonn.

I am in favor of mandatory training, but I'm not in favor of fining units who's leaders aren't trained. If you want to be a leader in the BSA, go to training, get your certificate, complete your volunteer application & get to work!

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

Training is for dogs.

Learning is for people.

The BSA does too much of the former, and not enough of the latter. Requiring training will do little more than annoy people, most of whom don't like to be treated like dogs.

Providing real learning opportunities would be nice, tho.

In our council, starting with the April 2007 recharter, if a troop/pack does not have a trained Scoutmaster or Cubmaster, they will not be allowed to recharter. I can agree to that to some degree, but to have every registered leader be trained or not be allowed to recharter is a problem.

First, in my council Outdoor Leader Training is only offered once a year -- the weekend before Halloween. I had to go out of council to get my Outdoor Leader Training. Second, if you have a number of trained people in the troop already, why alienate some other potential adult leaders by having this requirement.

What training is mandatory? Are we just talking about SM or every single adult who signs the application?

Our unit requires all adults, registered or not, who attends overnights with us to take YPT (its simple, quick and online). We also require our SMs and ASMs to go through the entire SM program. But beyond that, we encourage all adults to get as much training as they can stand but don't require it.

Beavah... I'm not sure how you're differentiating between a training class and a learning opportunity. What have you seen wrong with training classes such that fail to provide a learning opportunity?

All... In my limited experience, my district and council do a pretty good job providing learning opportunities in their training classes. They provide multiple sessions at various times during the year. This year two sessions of basic training for cub and boy scout leaders in the fall and two sessions in the spring--some during the week, some during the weekend. With the other districts in our Council, you can take basic training almost monthly. Council also provides a couple opportunities during the year for both cub and boy scout leader outdoor training. Content of the classes is pretty good. You get the basics needed to understand how to get started and most importanly, you meet the training staff and they become a resource for getting more help when you need it. My only gripe with my District's training is that roundtables turned into a bit of an announcement fest instead of providing program ideas for the upcoming month.

The biggest problem I've experienced was getting leaders in my unit to take advantage of the learning opportunity the training provided and take the darn classes. I'd tell them of all of the benefits of training and I'd get the same old exucses, "I'm too busy" or "I forgot" or "I'm out of town that night/weekend." I'd suggest planning ahead more and registering for a class a couple months in advance or I'd call/email them a month and two weeks and one week and a couple of days before the class with a reminder with no joy. The truth is they just didn't want to go.

I don't think units need 100% trained leadership but like GernBlansten said, units need leaders in key positions trained. I think the units can figure out what those positions are. In addition to GB's list, I'd include the CC for the troop. For packs, it'd be the CC, CM, CAs, and all DLs (DLs are the most important job in cub scouting IMO--no matter how good a job the CM does with the pack progra, a bad DL can still kill the pack while a good den program can save a pack with a weak pack program). I don't think it's as critical that committee members be trained other that YPT, it'd be nice, but not critical. A treasurer can still balance a checkbook and support his unit efficiently without taking MC training.

I don't think fines or requiring certain positions be trained in order to recharter is the answer. Perhaps basic training should provide the opportunity for leaders to learn skills to motivate other leaders to take training too. Being able to motivate people is a very important skill for leaders--it's how you get volunteers and boys to want to do something. We need some carrots here and I'm not sure what else can be done.

If we want a stick, maybe national should not provide the BSA liability insurance for leaders who don't get trainined.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

When they pull an inexperienced and untrained secretary or DE out of the office and say, "go do training" (all you have to do is play the video and read the script out of the book), that's not "training" or "learning". That's a huge waste of time for all involved. It does make the stats look better, though.

Presentation...its all about presentation.

Rather than a fine for untrained leaders, how about offering a discount for trained ones. BSA could set the Adult Application fee at $30, with a training discount of 75% for all those with their training certificates/cards in hand. Units could use the rechartering savings to pay for training fees and still be ahead of the game, giving them an incentive to promote more trained leadership.

Fines are a negative, discounts are a positive.

What I want to see is when CNYScouter's council really goes through the re-chartering process and denies charters to units.

It seems to me a small council will suddenly grow a lot smaller. Wonder how that Scout Executive and his DE's are going to do on their next FOS campaign???

Mind you, as a COR, I actively encourage the leaders of my units to take training and attend roundtable.

For Beavah: In the adult training/education world of which I was once a part (to wit, US Army), TRAINING connoted mastery of an array of tasks ... some mechanical, some cognitive. EDUCATION connoted development of processes at deeper than the analytic level. LEARNING was the receipt, process, and employment of new tasks, processes and skills by the student.

Good Day,

I was an ASM for 8 months before I had my Scoutmaster Specific "Training" (indoor and outdoor). In those 8 months I learned more about the Boy Scout program from the Troops Scoutmaster than what was presented in the "training". Basically, I only went to get the card and the patch. I was told by the Scoutmaster that I already knew what I needed to know.

If training is going to be mandatory, then why not let a trained Scoutmaster (or ASM) train the other ASM's as they come on board? Watching the program in action and getting "on the job" training/experience is much more effective.

ASM59

ASM59 makes a very good point... The sooner a leader gets trained for their new position, the greater the learning opportunity and value of the training. Fortunately, he had a unit trainer to provide OJT. Unfortunately, not all units always have smooth transitions in leadership.

I found my SM/SA class and outdoor trainging very useful, but I took it a month after moving from my son's pack to his new troop. This doesn't mean that the SM doesn't provide me with OJT. It just means that he could devote more time to running the program rather than training a leader while I was a newbie.